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My point was more about people making the assertion that under a single payer system, R&D will suffer. The claims are that with the cost of medicine being negotiated by government, it will take a lot of the profit away from big pharma.
My evidence, and there's tons more of it, is that R&D does not suffer in nations with a single payer system. In fact the vast majority of medical advancements come from nations with a single payer system.
I'm just trying to dispel a popular myth.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I just looked to see what was up.
It was suppose to cost 200 billion to implement the program. But I dunno, eve. The figures are all over the place depending which article we read.
One says 200 billion. another says it's 40 billion IF they keep he funding up for Medicaid and all those things. Another says 100 billion pluses another 100 billion for Medicaid expansion.
So I dunno. Unlike many conservatives, I don't live in fear of a single payer system.. I do have serious concerns about it.. the first being the ability of our government to actually set it up and manage it well.. which would be about the first time in history they set anything up and managed it well. I don't know the numbers, they are staggeringly huge and complicated when it comes to how much it would cost, but then you have to back-out what we are already spending, etc.. I'm not exactly sure what it would take for somebody to put the numbers in a format that I could understand.. The second being that it is set up in such a way that we are still incentivizing the best and brightest to become doctors and surgeons.. I don't want a guy making $80K a year doing my surgery, I just don't. I want somebody who has put in the painstaking effort it takes to get to that level who is making $500K a year and is worth every penny of it. Same goes for research, I worry that if you cut off the profit incentive in research that it will stagnate.. if the government dictates to these medical research companies that you can only make $X dollars for your fruits of your research that we will lose our edge in that industry and.. it will stagnate. And the third being that if government runs it and government pays for it (with our money) that they will use that as an excuse to start making decisions for us.. taking things like smoking, drinking, dietary habits and saying that these things are too big of a burden on the healthcare system, therefore the government is going to start regulating when/if you can have certain things... But I'm willing to listen. Well a doctor making $80K a year would be awesome if they didn't have that cool million in student debt they rack up getting to be doctors! Just think how many brilliant minds don't even get the opportunity to shine and become awesome doctors. So the money they make has little to do with how good they are. I remember going to a doctor in Mexico once after a brawl and getting myself a few very much needed stitches... it was amazing that he could do the job considering their economy had collapsed and he was only getting paid pennies... imagine that.
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A Socialist Healthcare Plan where the Government calls all the shots on if you get treatment and what meds they allow does not help us.
Wagons coming down the street and people yelling, "Bring Out Your Dead, Bring Out Your Dead", is not a good Healthcare Plan!
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I have one HUGE problem with the government being in charge of our health care. They will screw it up. When it takes forever to learn what would and wouldn't be covered under medicare, what it will cost, and what is available is like trying to figure out the rules set in place by the IRS. It's a cluster funk.
Actually, so far, I'm pretty impressed with Medicare.. Very in fact. And what makes it better is my supplimental plan.. My upcoming surgery will cost me nothing out of pocket. All you have to do is have the procedure code and they can tell you very quickly what they will pay. I know I've told you guys this before, but my mother in law had emergency surgery 4 or so years back, we damn near lost her. Bleeding ulcer I think.. anyway, lots of pints of blood were given to her to keep her alive. Total cost to her out of pocket, 38.00. In her case, she didn't have time to check it out ahead of time. But it worked out just fine. I don't understand the comment about the people from Medicare not having a clue, my experience so far as been very positive.
#GMSTRONG
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Becoming Venezuela is your answer for everything.  Yes I want to become Venezuela. smh How about being like every other wealthy country on earth and guaranteeing health care while reducing the overall cost and financial burden on the people? But there is no profit in it and the great orange stump didn't whisper it in your ear. How are you reducing the financial burden when taxes will have to skyrocket to pay for this? Coloradocare had a 10% tax increase just to cover Colorado. Colorado population accounts for less than 2% of the country population. How much are we going to have to raise taxes to pay for the other 98%? Guaranteed healthcare? Again, not going to happen. The unfortunate reality is that healthcare is a finite resource. You'll never have healthcare for 100% of the population. It will always be rationed, whether it be by money, government bureaucracy or some other means. Yes taxes would go up, but you would no longer be paying those LARGE health insurance premiums. DO THE MATH. 30% of your premium is profit wages for insurance middlemen. 30%!!! That's a 30% savings off that bat. It cost 8% to administer medicare/medicaid. SO Now you have realized a 22% total save without changing anything else. Then you negotiate cost controls with big pharma and hospitals. Next you change the way we think about healthcare. Taking the profit out of it will let us focus more on keeping people healthy in the first place. You really think thats going back into our pocket? Instead it will go to fund some new government agency that will be formed to manage this monstrosity. The US government does nothing in an efficient or cost effective way. I don't want the people that brought us the DMV, TSA and the IRS in charge of healthcare.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Good for you, and her.
There's a reason some doctors aren't taking new medicare patients, though.
And there's a reason some doctors push people, like my grandma, to continue treatment that isn't working. After 3 treatments for her eyes, with absolutely no improvement, she said "no more". Doc argued with her: "But insurance will pay for 3 more".
Yup. Doc originally told her after 1 shot ($10,000) that she would see improvement. Nope. Even after 3, nothing. But he pressed her to have the 3 more insurance would pay for.
There is no 1 size fits all.
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But there is a one size fits most.
On to single payer.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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You communist. Go move to Europe.
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You communist. Go move to Europe. I'm a globalist, they all live in europe lolololol.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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You communist. Go move to Europe. I don't know why you would feel that way towards swish. Doesn't make sense, really. In the medical field/arena - there currently is abuse from top to bottom. Insurance companies, insurance agents, pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals........all of them. All these "plans" don't tackle the major issue: cost. Why is that? Single payer is where we are headed, no doubt. But I don't think that will be a bed of roses, either.
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that's a joke him and i have, bro.
i agree that the base talk of single payer doesn't address cost.
but bro, every time somebody talks about price caps, politicians start crying.
we can certainly reel in cost, but people don't seem to get that this was always gonna be a painful process, and it doesn't appear that a lot of our politicians want to give us effective leadership in order to move through said process.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Uh........I wasn't born yesterday.
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Have you ever heard me (read) say "follow the money"?
If you do that, it will take you directly to the reasons things are as they are, and probably will stay as they are.
Yes, we are headed towards single payer, no doubt.
The issue is cost of medical care, and that will never be addressed.
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oh it can be addressed, i just don't think the current crop of politicians are willing to do it.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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oh it can be addressed, i just don't think the current crop of politicians are willing to do it. You hold more faith in future politicians than I do. Follow the money. How do you get elected? $$$ And it's not your own money. After all, who spends $20-$50 million to be elected into a job that pays $165,000 a year. (more or less)
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A Socialist Healthcare Plan where the Government calls all the shots on if you get treatment and what meds they allow does not help us.
Wagons coming down the street and people yelling, "Bring Out Your Dead, Bring Out Your Dead", is not a good Healthcare Plan! You're a riot! Did you spend all night thinking that one up? L
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Becoming Venezuela is your answer for everything. Yes I want to become Venezuela. smh How about being like every other wealthy country on earth and guaranteeing health care while reducing the overall cost and financial burden on the people? But there is no profit in it and the great orange stump didn't whisper it in your ear. How are you reducing the financial burden when taxes will have to skyrocket to pay for this? Coloradocare had a 10% tax increase just to cover Colorado. Colorado population accounts for less than 2% of the country population. How much are we going to have to raise taxes to pay for the other 98%? Guaranteed healthcare? Again, not going to happen. The unfortunate reality is that healthcare is a finite resource. You'll never have healthcare for 100% of the population. It will always be rationed, whether it be by money, government bureaucracy or some other means. Yes taxes would go up, but you would no longer be paying those LARGE health insurance premiums. DO THE MATH. 30% of your premium is profit wages for insurance middlemen. 30%!!! That's a 30% savings off that bat. It cost 8% to administer medicare/medicaid. SO Now you have realized a 22% total save without changing anything else. Then you negotiate cost controls with big pharma and hospitals. Next you change the way we think about healthcare. Taking the profit out of it will let us focus more on keeping people healthy in the first place. You really think thats going back into our pocket? Instead it will go to fund some new government agency that will be formed to manage this monstrosity. The US government does nothing in an efficient or cost effective way. I don't want the people that brought us the DMV, TSA and the IRS in charge of healthcare. Yes, by all means protect your corporate masters. You want those very nice guys over at the insurance company in charge because that has just been a blessing to us all... GMAB You and 40 are just trolling, neither one of you have a clue about anything outside the bubble of GOP BS you live in. DO you even read about things like this or just repeat what the drunks at the VFW have to say about it?
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DO you even read about things like this or just repeat what the drunks at the VFW have to say about it? Hmmm.........interesting.
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You communist. Go move to Europe. Swish ain't moving to Europe, but he might move to Urdope.
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Uh........I wasn't born yesterday. The cave already gave that away.
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Thanks. That's real nice of you.
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Thanks. That's real nice of you. All in fun and you went there not me. lol
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That's a gas! You made a truce and then promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just had to bring me back to the edge because you never learn.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 06/29/17 09:32 PM.
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That's a gas! You made a truce and them promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just hand to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Whataboutism. Classic deflect when you got nothing.
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That's a gas! You made a truce and them promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just hand to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Whataboutism. Classic deflect when you got nothing. Regular 3 ring rodeo in here tonight: clowns, bulls, and cow Patties.
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That's a gas! You made a truce and them promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just hand to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Whataboutism. Classic deflect when you got nothing. Regular 3 ring rodeo in here tonight: clowns, bulls, and cow Patties. And socialist trolls.
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That's a gas! You made a truce and then promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just had to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Always someone else's fault, right?
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That's a gas! You made a truce and then promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just had to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Always someone else's fault, right? Its the liberal way. Its always someone else fault and somebody owes me. *hands out*
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That's a gas! You made a truce and them promised to do better. It lasted less than a day. What you really did was try to get me off of you because I know how to shut you up and shame you. I tried to keep it civil in here but you just hand to bring me back to the edge because you never learn. Whataboutism. Classic deflect when you got nothing. Regular 3 ring rodeo in here tonight: clowns, bulls, and cow Patties. And socialist trolls. Thank's for noticing, next rounds on 40! 
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 06/29/17 09:40 PM.
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oh it can be addressed, i just don't think the current crop of politicians are willing to do it. You hold more faith in future politicians than I do. Follow the money. How do you get elected? $$$ And it's not your own money. After all, who spends $20-$50 million to be elected into a job that pays $165,000 a year. (more or less) Why shouldn't I hold more faith? When push comes to shove, our politicians have stepped up. Civil rights act, amnesty, the ACA that's helping push this country to single payer, and I can go on and on. I have faith in them, or at least in the people to remove and add new blood, because what other choice do I have? Say screw it? Eventually these politicians will man the hell up and do right. Maybe not this current group, but whoever replaces them.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Not to mention in the future there will be way less old school GOP.
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Becoming Venezuela is your answer for everything. Yes I want to become Venezuela. smh How about being like every other wealthy country on earth and guaranteeing health care while reducing the overall cost and financial burden on the people? But there is no profit in it and the great orange stump didn't whisper it in your ear. How are you reducing the financial burden when taxes will have to skyrocket to pay for this? Coloradocare had a 10% tax increase just to cover Colorado. Colorado population accounts for less than 2% of the country population. How much are we going to have to raise taxes to pay for the other 98%? Guaranteed healthcare? Again, not going to happen. The unfortunate reality is that healthcare is a finite resource. You'll never have healthcare for 100% of the population. It will always be rationed, whether it be by money, government bureaucracy or some other means. Yes taxes would go up, but you would no longer be paying those LARGE health insurance premiums. DO THE MATH. 30% of your premium is profit wages for insurance middlemen. 30%!!! That's a 30% savings off that bat. It cost 8% to administer medicare/medicaid. SO Now you have realized a 22% total save without changing anything else. Then you negotiate cost controls with big pharma and hospitals. Next you change the way we think about healthcare. Taking the profit out of it will let us focus more on keeping people healthy in the first place. You really think thats going back into our pocket? Instead it will go to fund some new government agency that will be formed to manage this monstrosity. The US government does nothing in an efficient or cost effective way. I don't want the people that brought us the DMV, TSA and the IRS in charge of healthcare. Yes, by all means protect your corporate masters. You want those very nice guys over at the insurance company in charge because that has just been a blessing to us all... GMAB You and 40 are just trolling, neither one of you have a clue about anything outside the bubble of GOP BS you live in. DO you even read about things like this or just repeat what the drunks at the VFW have to say about it? I say something you disagree with and this is what you resort to? I'm simply pointing out why single payer will be a disaster with our government in charge. You may not want to look at the negatives, but some of us do. Want to get me onboard with single payer? Convince me the government has a clue and is not going to screw this up like they have with every other government run program. If we go single payer, once the government gets it's hand on something it never lets go.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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It's very hard to say that the government won't screw it up. But they're screwing it up now. The ACA has problems. The new health care bill has problems. Healthcare prior to the ACA had problems.
The only real choice I see us trying what we haven't tried before is allowing the government to negotiate drug and service prices to help drive down the cost of healthcare under a single payer system.
It's working well for the civilized world and at this juncture our healthcare system is so screwed up, and will continue to be screwed up if the latest proposal passes, I don't see where we have anything to lose.
I know that isn't very convincing, but somehow our healthcare has been screwed up for decades by making it a big business. It would be hard to convince me it could get much worse.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Yes that's they way I respond when you start out "You really think..."
I did read your entire response and found it fairly shallow and typical of the right, so yes I aggressively placed that hot potato back in your hands. Now if I over reacted and read more into your reply than you meant to convey, I apologize, but I have to deal with the likes of 40, Eve, Peen and Arch in here so you will have to toughen up a little when it comes to my responses.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 06/30/17 01:13 AM.
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