says the guy who is giving alternative facts for why the current party in control is crapping the bed.
also, there's only conservative and conservative lite in this country when it comes to the two Party affiliation.
there is no true "left leaning" major party. the GOP is right leaning to far right, the Dems are center-right to centrist.
there are liberal elements within the democratic party. but the party itself can barely be considered liberal, never mind "totally left leaning".
seems to me the only person who doesn't understand current politics in this discussion is you.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Someone will come along and tell you how world political systems and their leaning bear no weight. They need their confirmation bias of democrats needing to be far left and republicans being right in the center.
And for those who think the GOP or the Dems have the right idea on health care, hah. Both sides are bought off by big pharma.
dude i go back and watch speeches from presidential candidates and politicians from back in the day.
Reagan and Bush Sr would be called dem's today based on Peens criteria of what "left leaning" is.
the problem i see from a lot of people is that they assign a "left or right" label on a policy/issue that shouldn't even have a label or party attachment to begin with.
for example, common sense says civil rights isn't a left or right issue, yet in this country, it's absolutely a left or right issue.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
the problem i see from a lot of people is that they assign a "left or right" label on a policy/issue that shouldn't even have a label or party attachment to begin with.
On this we agree. Healthcare is one of those issues. Every American should have healthcare without using it like a political football.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It really comes down to whether you think Healthcare is a basic human right in a civilized society.
A Ferrari isn't a basic human right.
"Universal Healthcare is Not That Hard. Just look at all these countries that have it: Australia, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Brunei, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Singapore, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom.
"Did you notice anything? Maybe perhaps that the United States is one of the only first world countries to not offer universal healthcare as a right for its citizens. Or more so, that it seems to be something we still philosophically debate while people die or lose their coverage."
I think the negative effects of giving something of value to people w/out them having to work for it is fairly strong. I get tired of paying for those who choose not to work.
I think the negative effects of giving something of value to people w/out them having to work for it is fairly strong. I get tired of paying for those who choose not to work.
I get that. A very good friend is a libertarian and wants to give and take virtually nothing from the govt and to be left alone to provide for him and his family. We've had lots of great conversation without ever persuading each other!
It's a huge discussion and can him on so many directions. But when you say some choose not to work for it ... What about those that want to but can't? There are some. What about the smokers? Why should my insurance premium be so high because I have to contribute to their coverage? What about the fact that if you force people to use emergency care it is the most expensive way to treat someone who could have more readily been tested by a primary care physician? How is it fair that I can insure myself and do everything right and responsibly, get the wrong disease and go backing because my insurance only covers so much then denied me coverage?
As I said I think it just comes down to whether you think it's a human right. I do. You get free loaders in all walks of life, I hate that too, but I don't want to run my government based on my fears of what the scumbags might do. They are the tiny minority... If rather create the best policy for the vast majority.
My friend says why would the freeloaders ever want to get a job .... I say that if I was in their shoes, I'd want better and more out of life than free healthcare. I think the vast majority of people would too. I think corporate theft and guys like Madoff and companies like Enron cost is as much as the deaths at the bottom. Jmho
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
My friend says why would the freeloaders ever want to get a job .... I say that if I was in their shoes, I'd want better and more out of life than free healthcare. I think the vast majority of people would too. I think corporate theft and guys like Madoff and companies like Enron cost is as much as the deaths at the bottom. Jmho
YOU might want that.
Abuse is rampant though. Abuse of medical care, abuse of social programs, etc.
I could list off 10 people right now that abuse welfare/disability.
That's here, in this town of 4600 or so. And those are just the ones I know of. There are many more.
Military disability, women that live with a guy who's the father of 3, 4, even 5 kids, but they don't get married (mom and "boyfriend") because it would take benefits away.
People that "can't work", get full disability, and then work on the side for cash.
It goes on and on.
Those that truly are disabled? Help them out, no doubt. Those that abuse the system? I cant stand them.
Nice reply and I am not knocking you at all. I am not going to give my full argument here, but I will touch on a few things.
I totally agree w/you about smokers, people who eat a ton of fast food, have high sugar intake, etc.
I also agree that there are some people who really can't work. Back issues, accidents, cancer, etc.
However, I believe you decrease the percentage of people who will work when you give too many handouts. I believe that is why communism and socialism have been epic failures across the globe. Taking away the motivation to succeed is not a good thing.
I was a teacher for a long time. We have another teacher on here who likes to make excuses for kids and say give them this, give them that.
That type of logic sickens me.
When I taught E. Cleveland and also had many minorities here in SC, I used to cringe when they were simply handed tings because they were poor or a minority.
What the hell are you teaching them by giving them stuff w/out earning it?
I'll tell you what. You are telling them they aren't freaking good enough! You are telling them that the rich, white kids are better and the only way they can compete is to get handouts.
You have no idea how much that infuriates me!!!
I told my kids that they were good enough. They were smart enough. They could indeed beat the freaking system if they worked at it and had the fortitude to beat the bigots at their own freaking game!
And you know what, 888? They could--and did--succeed!
Don't anyone dare tell a person they aren't good enough. Don't tell them they can't succeed. Don't tell them that hard work doesn't pay off!
Encourage them and reinforce that they are good enough, strong enough, smart enough. Help them succeed and don't just put crap in their hands!
It really comes down to whether you think Healthcare is a basic human right in a civilized society
I do. And that happens. If a person shows up at the hospital with a broken leg, they aren't going to get kicked out if they can't pay. They get fixed and the safety net, which is my and your tax dollars pays for it.
Sorry, your arguement doesn't register with me.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
It really comes down to whether you think Healthcare is a basic human right in a civilized society
I do. And that happens. If a person shows up at the hospital with a broken leg, they aren't going to get kicked out if they can't pay. They get fixed and the safety net, which is my and your tax dollars pays for it.
Sorry, your arguement doesn't register with me.
Exactly. Hospitals don't turn anyone away, around here anyway. The poor and indigent have better healthcare than I do. I work in a hospital, I have a $200 copay for my ER visits.... and I'm paying for theirs also. It was like that before Obamacare. As Arch said, abuse of the system is rampant.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
What about those that want to but can't? There are some. What about the smokers? Why should my insurance premium be so high because I have to contribute to their coverage?
Smokers, fat folks, drug addicts, abortions and such are commited by people irresponsible for their actions. So you have a problem with paying extra for their health care costs?
It really comes down to whether you think Healthcare is a basic human right in a civilized society
I do. And that happens. If a person shows up at the hospital with a broken leg, they aren't going to get kicked out if they can't pay. They get fixed and the safety net, which is my and your tax dollars pays for it.
Sorry, your arguement doesn't register with me.
Well then I won't try to convince you. If you believe being able to go to the emergency room is equal to universal healthcare or is some how sufficient for everyone's needs, then there's not much to be said.
I guess rather than worrying about the people who abuse the system which I acknowledge and it happens everywhere around the globe - I look at the results. The US is the most expensive healthcare system and not the best. Others are cheaper - cover more people and are also getting abused - and provide better care. To me that seems like people would rather win a debate about abuse/principals than roll with what has worked around the globe in other developed countries.
I'll stick with the 95+% of first world countries that have universal health care - and whose healthcare system is ranked higher and doesn't bankrupt you if you are unfortunate enough to become truly sick. Not only that - those other countries have populations that are healthier than the US (which might correlate to the lower healthcare costs - cause and effect?) -
I won't try to convince anyone they need to change their opinion on this topic - it's probably a bit like the gun debate. If you think you need to legally own a 50 Cal sniper riffle or a mag that holds 22 rounds, I disagree. But I'm not going to try to convince you to change your mind. But I am always interested in hearing others views and their reasons.
Last edited by mgh888; 07/16/1709:35 PM.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should ever be denied life saving medical attention (emergency, cancer, heart, etc.), denied emergency medical attention (emergency or urgent care), or basic medical (office or outpatient) visits based on their ability to pay!
People should not have to choose between medicine and FOOD! I don't care how much y'all think you are paying to help these people (nothing really), you don't make people sicker (let them get sicker) because they are poor.
The ignorance of thinking your taxes are used to take care of the poor is mind blowing to me. Taxes are the government's way of recouping and regulating the flow of money. By making your taxes payable only in US Dollars, you all have to work for them so you can pay your taxes! That's all taxes are.
The government can print (digitize) all the money it needs to pay ANYTHING and they do, every damn day! They spend it then they tax you. So YOUR money is not being used to pay for anything. When the country has a balanced budget, that means for every dollar in spending a dollar is taxed... Not every dollar is always collected though and budget overruns and dark money never hits the books. So even the balance is BS.
Yes you pay taxes. Yes taxes are too much. But your taxes are not going to the poor, lazy, sick, or creepy. They are being collected to keep you in debt and the government in power... As long as you give the US dollar the power to buy and the government the power to create money, you will always owe those same damn taxes regardless of the fact that there are poor people seeing a doctor or not. So this "I'm paying for them" crap is absolute rubbish and political brainwashing.
Here is a simple question for those who doubt what I just said:
"How much did your taxes increase after the bailouts?" or "How much have your taxes increased for the wars?" or "How much have your taxes increased to pay for corporate welfare?"...
Answer? Not one dang dime. Any increase was labeled for something else entirely yet we spend billions and trillions on these things... How?
Debt? Yes we have a debt, a debt that on any given day could be paid with the click of the 'enter' button on a computer at the treasury. After all, the government prints (creates) money out of thin air every day! But having a huge debt keeps them from releasing a deluge of new currency and keeps the dollar's buying power higher vs other currencies. This is why we have debt. Not poor people.
The ignorance of thinking your taxes are used to take care of the poor is mind blowing to me. Taxes are the government's way of recouping and regulating the flow of money. By making your taxes payable only in US Dollars, you all have to work for them so you can pay your taxes! That's all taxes are.
psstt bro, you can't pay the IRS in US Dollars. They do not accept CASH. You can't pay with 100's 50's 20's 10's or 5's either.
I think the negative effects of giving something of value to people w/out them having to work for it is fairly strong. I get tired of paying for those who choose not to work.
But this is a huge misgiving. Now if you want to re-vamp the medicaid program making it harder to qualify, I would go along with that idea. But the problem is, most people in nursing homes get medicaid benefits. I'm sure those are not the people you are talking about.
Many births are covered by medicaid. I'm sure you're not against babies having healthcare. At least I would think not.
Most disabled people get medicaid and they can't work. I don't believe you're meaning those people.
So if tightening the qualifications for medicaid is what you're after, to me that makes common sense.
But to just gut funding to a program that will also impact all of the people listed above doesn't make sense.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
You are taking one line from all that I said. I could have sworn that I expounded on my feelings during this thread. Who knows, maybe they were deleted?
It just seems like many keep beating this drum. It appears you aren't one of them. But I think these things need to be repeated because there do seem to be some that just don't get it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The roll of government is to make sure it's people have a quality of life standard.
I don't see anybody telling people to pay for their own streets to get paved, or pay for their own security. No, that gets paid for through a collection of all of us.
Healthcare has to fall into that if we want to maintain a high standard of living.
The countries that have the best economies around the world also have national healthcare.
I don't understand why we are part of the few, if not, ONLY country that doesn't view healthcare as a basic right for its citizens.
And no, being the only one not going that route isn't a good thing.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I'll chime in being one of the few around here from the socialist utopia of Canada.
The thought of not having public healthcare is a terrifying one for someone who has grown up with it. It is, in my mind, a right of a citizen. It is however a challenging thing for government to take on and is the highest budget item every year for every province in Canada.
I saw some comments surrounding having to pay for people with unhealthy habits. That, admittedly, is an annoyance. I'm a big supporter of the government bringing in tax credits on things that promote healthy lifestyles like gym memberships and the like.
What's building a certain amount of steam here is having a parallel private system for certain procedures with long wait times in the public system. When I worked for the Ministry of Health back in the day, it was knee and hip replacements. Given the longer wait lists, gov't allowed private clinics to take on a certain number of "for pay" operations for those who were willing to pay to get the procedure done quicker. Operations are still done by doctors working the public system but done during their "days off" so the public system doesn't suffer.
This model will likely continue to grow to take on more non-life threatening but major procedures to cut down on wait times and cost to the public system while still ensuring the public system is there for all.
So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!
So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!
Stop acting like you know anything about Canada's HC system.
Your statement is beyond idiotic.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!
Stop acting like you know anything about Canada's HC system.
The federal government’s top ethics chief is resigning on Wednesday. And he’s torching the Trump administration on his way out.
Walter M. Shaub Jr., director of the Office of Government Ethics, told the New York Times that President Trump’s apparent disdain for long-established ethical norms has undermined the credibility of the United States around the world.
“It’s hard for the United States to pursue international anticorruption and ethics initiatives when we’re not even keeping our own side of the street clean,” Shaub told the Times in an article published Monday. “I think we are pretty close to a laughingstock at this point.”
Shaub — who has been a vocal critic of Trump’s since his election — said the president’s frequent trips to his family-owned golf clubs are a microcosm of just how blurry the line between the White House and Trump brand has become.
“It creates the appearance of profiting from the presidency,” Shaub said. “Misuse of position is really the heart of the ethics program, and the internationally accepted definition of corruption is abuse of entrusted power. It undermines the government ethics program by casting doubt on the integrity of government decision making.”
Trump spent last weekend at another one of his golf courses, and repeatedly promoted the U.S. Women’s Open Championship held there.
In a statement to the Times, White House spokeswoman Lindsay Walters dismissed the criticism: “Mr. Schaub’s penchant for raising concerns on matters well outside his scope with the media before ever raising them with the White House — which happens to be his actual day job — is rather telling.”
Walters added: “The truth is, [he] is not interested in advising the executive branch on ethics. He’s interested in grandstanding and lobbying for more expansive powers in the office he holds.”
Shaub is calling for numerous changes to expand the power of the ethics office. He believes that the agency should have clear ethics oversight authority over all parts of the White House, limited subpoena authority and new conflict of interest standards for the president. (Shaub also wants Congress to pass legislation requiring presidential candidates to disclose their tax returns, which Trump has refused to do.)
Before leaving office, Shaub is expected to meet with Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., and Rep. Trey Gowdy, R-S.C., to discuss those proposed reforms.
In a statement, Cummings said he is receptive to taking steps to strengthen the ethics office.
“The Office of Government Ethics has an impossible job under this administration because President Trump has ignored its advice, undermined its authority and openly flouted ethics rules,” Cummings said. “Now more than ever, it is important for Congress to act to strengthen OGE and protect its independence.”
Earlier this month, Shaub announced his forthcoming resignation, saying he had accepted a job with the Campaign Legal Center, a nonpartisan organization of election-law experts.
“The current situation has made it clear that the ethics program needs to be stronger than it is,” Shaub told NPR. “At the Campaign Legal Center, I’ll have more freedom to push for reform. I’ll also be broadening my focus to include ethics issues at all levels of government.”
Conway creates stir by endorsing Ivanka Trump brand on TV
Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway promoted the Ivanka Trump brand on an interview with “Fox & Friends” Thursday morning. Many began to question whether she violated federal ethic rules that prohibit officials from promoting companies. White House press secretary Sean Spicer weighed in on the debate. In February, Shaub called on the White House to investigate Kellyanne Conway, one of Trump’s top advisers, for comments she made promoting Ivanka Trump’s brand.
In an appearance on “Fox & Friends,” Conway urged viewers to “go buy Ivanka’s stuff” after Nordstrom decided to drop Ivanka Trump products from its stores.
“This is just a wonderful line. I own some of it,” Conway said from the James S. Brady Briefing Room, with the official White House seal in full view. “I’m going to give a free commercial here: Go buy it today, everybody. You can find it online.”
“Executive branch officials should use the authority entrusted in them for the benefit of the American public and not for private profit,” Shaub wrote in a letter to Trump’s deputy counsel. “I recommend that the White House investigate Ms. Conway’s actions and consider taking disciplinary action against her.”
White House press secretary Sean Spicer later said Conway had been “counseled” about her potential ethics violation after the interview.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!
WOW...that's seriously what you got out of that? Let's break it down for you.
1. There is a public healthcare for all citizens that will provide needed health care services - both life saving and for quality of life (ie. to remove pain) 2. There are some private clinics that will perform a limited range of medical procedures that typically have longer wait times. 3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
And frankly...3 is no big deal anyways as this option already existed by heading to the US or to Mexico or wherever. Medical tourism has become a pretty big thing.
3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
BAM! That right there is exactly what I was talking about when I said...
"So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!"
That is a crap socialist system with a Capitalist system fixing it!
3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
BAM! That right there is exactly what I was talking about when I said...
"So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!"
That is a crap socialist system with a Capitalist system fixing it!
POW! You're clueless.
Our public healthcare has a limited list of procedures that can be performed privately to supplement the public system. It relieves pressure on the public system and allows people who want (note the word WANT not MUST) to pay for it to stay in country rather than travel.
Our "crap socialist system" also ensures that any citizen needing medical care receives it - regardless of their bank account.
3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
BAM! That right there is exactly what I was talking about when I said...
"So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!"
That is a crap socialist system with a Capitalist system fixing it!
POW! You're clueless.
Our public healthcare has a limited list of procedures that can be performed privately to supplement the public system. It relieves pressure on the public system and allows people who want (note the word WANT not MUST) to pay for it to stay in country rather than travel.
Our "crap socialist system" also ensures that any citizen needing medical care receives it - regardless of their bank account.
You can't even see what is in front of your face yet everyone else is clueless! Do your doctors prescribe plenty of Opiates for those suffering in long lines waiting for socialized care while those with money can afford to get out of line and end their pain with cash and no Opiates?
Sounds really great! Sounds like the typical socialist answer to everything.
3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
BAM! That right there is exactly what I was talking about when I said...
"So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!"
That is a crap socialist system with a Capitalist system fixing it!
POW! You're clueless.
Our public healthcare has a limited list of procedures that can be performed privately to supplement the public system. It relieves pressure on the public system and allows people who want (note the word WANT not MUST) to pay for it to stay in country rather than travel.
Our "crap socialist system" also ensures that any citizen needing medical care receives it - regardless of their bank account.
You can't even see what is in front of your face yet everyone else is clueless! Do your doctors prescribe plenty of Opiates for those suffering in long lines waiting for socialized care while those with money can afford to get out of line and end their pain with cash and no Opiates?
Sounds really great! Sounds like the typical socialist answer to everything.
Never said its perfect. Health care systems, public or private, have capacity limits. So some people have to wait. However, I would thinking waiting for 2 months would be better than not being able to receive the surgery at all? Or are you more a proponent of the "lifetime of pain" health care model?
And just so I understand here.... you're saying its bad that people are prescribed pain relief medication while waiting for surgery? Like....what?
To be clear, I'm not saying public health care is perfect. Health care costs are rising..especially with the aging boomers and its taxing the system. But that's why I'm encouraged when I see evolution within it and maintains the principles of public health care while finding ways to make it more sustainable.
3. If you want, you can go to one of these private clinics, pay out of pocket and face a shorter wait. OR you can stick in line, wait longer and get it done for free.
BAM! That right there is exactly what I was talking about when I said...
"So now your socialist healthcare system is forcing people to pay for procedures if they can no longer bear the pain they are forced to suffer while waiting in lines. Sounds great!"
That is a crap socialist system with a Capitalist system fixing it!
POW! You're clueless.
Our public healthcare has a limited list of procedures that can be performed privately to supplement the public system. It relieves pressure on the public system and allows people who want (note the word WANT not MUST) to pay for it to stay in country rather than travel.
Our "crap socialist system" also ensures that any citizen needing medical care receives it - regardless of their bank account.
You can't even see what is in front of your face yet everyone else is clueless! Do your doctors prescribe plenty of Opiates for those suffering in long lines waiting for socialized care while those with money can afford to get out of line and end their pain with cash and no Opiates?
Sounds really great! Sounds like the typical socialist answer to everything.
Never said its perfect. Health care systems, public or private, have capacity limits. So some people have to wait. However, I would thinking waiting for 2 months would be better than not being able to receive the surgery at all? Or are you more a proponent of the "lifetime of pain" health care model?
And just so I understand here.... you're saying its bad that people are prescribed pain relief medication while waiting for surgery? Like....what?
To be clear, I'm not saying public health care is perfect. Health care costs are rising..especially with the aging boomers and its taxing the system. But that's why I'm encouraged when I see evolution within it and maintains the principles of public health care while finding ways to make it more sustainable.
Canadians who need medically necessary surgeries waited longer than ever for treatment — with average wait times hitting 20 weeks, a new Fraser Institute report concludes.
Before the 20-week record in 2016, wait times were longest in 2011 at 19 weeks, according to the organization. It began recording wait times for medically necessary elective treatments in 1993. At that point, wait times were only about 9.3 weeks to see a specialist, such as an ophthalmologist, gynecologist, and general surgeons. http://globalnews.ca/news/3084366/q-a-ho...-and-procedure/
In Trumpworld... The longest wait to see a doctor was in Boston, where the average wait was 52 days to schedule an appointment with a family physician, dermatologist, cardiologist, orthopedic surgeon or obstetrician/gynecologist. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen...e/#2214c82b2e74
unlike your extreme ass. you complain about one thing and decide that the one thing must mean the entire system must be scraped.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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