Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Swish Offline OP
Legend
OP Offline
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
“With the exception of the late, great Abraham Lincoln, I can be more presidential than any president that’s ever held this office,” Trump declared before a mostly adoring crowd in Youngstown, Ohio.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-seeks-regain-mojo-ohio-campaign-rally-034012684.html

Trump is a comedian now.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

- Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: PerfectSpiral
Quote:
Most others don't see things your way, thus the Presidency



"MOST others"? rofl You and 2 million more "others"


Show me where I said that. I looked up the what you were replying to and it's not there.


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850
Originally Posted By: Swish
“With the exception of the late, great Abraham Lincoln, I can be more presidential than any president that’s ever held this office,” Trump declared before a mostly adoring crowd in Youngstown, Ohio.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-seeks-regain-mojo-ohio-campaign-rally-034012684.html

Trump is a comedian now.


I couldn't even get close enough for a crotch grab wink


I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Originally Posted By: Swish
“With the exception of the late, great Abraham Lincoln, I can be more presidential than any president that’s ever held this office,” Trump declared before a mostly adoring crowd in Youngstown, Ohio.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-seeks-regain-mojo-ohio-campaign-rally-034012684.html

Trump is a comedian now.


I couldn't even get close enough for a crotch grab wink


One of the many dumb things Trump has said.. Hell, he's the least presidential of the presidents I've witnessed in my lifetime... I can only assume there isn't anyone less presidential within those prior to my life.

What's truly funny here, he says the late/great, as if we didn't know he was dead!


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,525
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,525
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
I think those making "Trump Youth" and Nazi references to it are even dumber than anything that was actually in the speech.


I don't believe pointing to other leaders that indoctrinated children as dumb at all. If we don't learn from history we're doomed to repeat it.

Quote:
It's funny to watch people get all riled up about his speeches when they are, for the most part, all the same. If he spoke to the NRA or the Boulder, Colorado rotary club, it would be basically the same speech... Yet every time he gives it, people act surprised.


The problem is he can't distinguish that there should be a difference. I believe what people are getting riled up about is that they believe they should be able to expect more from the POTUS.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
I think those making "Trump Youth" and Nazi references to it are even dumber than anything that was actually in the speech.


I don't believe pointing to other leaders that indoctrinated children as dumb at all. If we don't learn from history we're doomed to repeat it.

Quote:
It's funny to watch people get all riled up about his speeches when they are, for the most part, all the same. If he spoke to the NRA or the Boulder, Colorado rotary club, it would be basically the same speech... Yet every time he gives it, people act surprised.


The problem is he can't distinguish that there should be a difference. I believe what people are getting riled up about is that they believe they should be able to expect more from the POTUS.


NO WAY in Hell that he should give the same speech to the the Boy Scouts that he gave to Rotary club or the NRA.

At the Rotary or NRA, talking about the bar scene would probably be totally acceptable.. But in front of 12 year olds, it's totally inappropriate.

Those that don't understand that simple logic are just too busy to think for themselves. Anything Trump says is perfectly OK to them....


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,518
R
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
R
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,518


At the Rotary or NRA, talking about the bar scene would probably be totally acceptable.. But in front of 12 year olds, it's totally inappropriate.
but...but its appropriate for a pervert to go into a bathroom with a little girl and expose himself watta sad bunch you liberals are ....really.
...

[/quote]

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
Originally Posted By: Damanshot

Those that don't understand that simple logic are just too busy to think for themselves. Anything Trump says is perfectly OK to them....



This from one of those crying, "Nazis and Liars and Collusion oh my." notallthere

Zero credibility.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
Those that don't understand that simple logic


Oh, they understand it, alright... they just don't care.
Because 45*

"Excuse him... because he's- different."


rolleyes


"too many notes, not enough music-"

#GMStong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: Damanshot

Those that don't understand that simple logic are just too busy to think for themselves. Anything Trump says is perfectly OK to them....



This from one of those crying, "Nazis and Liars and Collusion oh my." notallthere

Zero credibility.


In your eyes, I'm sure I don't have any credibility and the reason is, I simply do not and could not support this president. Not based on anything he's done so far.

He IS the Liar in Chief.


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
Quote:
Those that don't understand that simple logic


Oh, they understand it, alright... they just don't care.
Because 45*

"Excuse him... because he's- different."


rolleyes


In all honesty Clem, I don't think they do understand. I really think they are closed to anything that doesn't make Trump look good. they are, in my eyes, as bad Trump himself.

Have you ever met a man that is more about Self Promotion than this president..


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
Trump is as or more presidential than Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Truman, JFK, Johnson, and (GOP Jesus) Reagan, not to mention all the others? Our president has an inferiority complex, is obviously mentally ill and should be immediately removed.

Only and idiot or a very sick person does the things he does, I think both conditions apply.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
Quote:
Those that don't understand that simple logic


Oh, they understand it, alright... they just don't care.
Because 45*

"Excuse him... because he's- different."


rolleyes


No Clem, this is what happens when you promise a lot of hate filled people that you will get rid of everything different that scares them. They are all but praying to him now... sickening. And they don't like being called deplorables but they back this deplorable man!

I wonder if he gets a second term if he will have them sending him their teenage daughters... He looks at 10 year olds on escalators and says he'll be dating her in ten years... But god forbid a transexual use a bathroom... lol

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Originally Posted By: Swish
“With the exception of the late, great Abraham Lincoln, I can be more presidential than any president that’s ever held this office,” Trump declared before a mostly adoring crowd in Youngstown, Ohio.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-seeks-regain-mojo-ohio-campaign-rally-034012684.html

Trump is a comedian now.

Maybe he can be.. but I'd like to see it.


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Quote:
In all honesty Clem, I don't think they do understand.


Perhaps.
I've been guilty of overestimating potential before.


"too many notes, not enough music-"

#GMStong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Originally Posted By: Riley01


At the Rotary or NRA, talking about the bar scene would probably be totally acceptable.. But in front of 12 year olds, it's totally inappropriate.
but...but its appropriate for a pervert to go into a bathroom with a little girl and expose himself watta sad bunch you liberals are ....really.
...

[/quote]

You never heard that from me,,, So why and change the subject?


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Obviously, he was captain of his HS debate team-

rolleyes


"too many notes, not enough music-"

#GMStong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
Obviously, he was captain of his HS debate team-

rolleyes


rofl Riley? omg that's funny as hell Clem. I about choked on coffee when I read that.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,199
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,199
deleted


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Quote:
the answer is know, that doesn't make one smarter than someone who only has a high school education.

if we're talking a specific topic, then maybe. for example, someone who went to school for engineering will probably know way more than somebody who didn't.

Yes, a person who graduates college is almost definitely smarter than the average individual in the discipline they studied in college.. that's almost a given (always allowing room for the exception)

Quote:
the problem though is too many people go to college and think that it somehow makes them all knowing with regards to EVERYTHING.

people get an art history degree and thinks that makes them an expert in diplomacy and world affairs. it's annoying, and i've been in classes with kids like that. at time it gets infuriating.

I don't know if that's a college thing or just a people thing.. I know folks who think they know everything about everything that never set foot on a college campus.. I will tell you that those who go to the prestigious Ivy League type schools, definitely have a superiority complex about being smarter that everybody about all things.

While I'm on my rant.. can folks just stop using the expression "street smarts"? Please.. There is this notion among a lot of folks who never went to college that they have "street smarts" and college grads have "book smarts".. I don't even know what the hell that means. I have a friend who uses it all the time, says he never went to college but he has "street smarts".. and I say, dude, you grew up in an upper middle class white neighborhood in suburban Maryland.. what "street smarts" do you have? You've never survived a day "on the streets" in your life.... I think he uses it as a euphemism for common sense.. as if going to college somehow drains you of your common sense and college grads don't have any..

Quote:
the flip side to that is when you have people who haven't gone to college try to devalue it simply because they hear "liberal college", and dismiss it altogether. that's also a problem.

Graduating college proves that you have the ability to learn and apply yourself in an academic setting.. it also gives you more knowledge on your specific field of study.. that's what it means. No more, no less. It has zero to do with overall intelligence or future success.

However, it is also worth noting that even an art history major, had to take all of those out-of-major classes like college level math, science, history, and english... so they are learning SOMETHING about those subjects that non-college kids don't get... that said, no reason for somebody spouting off about real life stuff they have never experienced..


yebat' Putin
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
House GOP passes $788B bill for Pentagon, border wall


The House passed a $788 billion spending bill Thursday that combines a $1.6 billion down payment for President Donald Trump's controversial border wall with Mexico with a whopping budget increase for the Pentagon.

The 326-page measure would make good on longtime GOP promises to reverse an erosion in military readiness. It would give veterans programs a 5 percent increase and fund a 2.4 percent military pay raise.

"Every single dime the President requested to start building a wall on our southern border he's going to get," said House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif. "Most importantly, we're sending more to the VA to fix veterans' health care and reform outdated VA systems.

"The president has promised this funding, the American people want this funding, and today the House is making good on that promise," said Rep. Steven Palazzo, R-Miss.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/27/house-gop-passes-788b-bill-for-pentagon-border-wall.html


thumbsup

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
LOL...........a Wall?

There is no way that a freaking wall is going to stop illegal immigration. And the cost? I've read it could be as much as $25 billion.

This is an idiotic idea and I can't believe we would actually do such a thing. Then again, we had Trump vs Hillary as our two choices. rolleyes

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
The wall will prevent most of those kicked out from returning. It is a combo of wall and technology.

Our Nation will finally be safe from the invading Hun.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438
E
Legend
Offline
Legend
E
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438
The wall works in Israel.


No Craps Given
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
The wall works in Israel.


Truer words were never spoken.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
Wow, they have no issue agreeing to fund a wall, and spend even more into the military industrial complex BUT they can't fix healthcare, fund education properly, or even keep minor programs like PBS and the endowment for the arts...

With all that military money, I wonder why the expense of transexual surgeries has the "Conservative (Christian) Right's" panties in a bunch? lol

I bet this bill doesn't pass in the senate.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
The more I think about this stupid Wall, the more aggravated I become.

$25 billion for something that is going to cause the prices of many goods and services to rise, thereby stifling the economy even more-so.

We're being led by idiots!

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
No, we were being overrun by invaders, gangs, drug dealers and scum.

That is coming to an end now and the wall will finish the job.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
rofl

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,156
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
The wall works in Israel.


The "Great Wall of Calais" France works.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,835
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,835
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
No, we were being overrun by invaders, gangs, drug dealers and scum.

That is coming to an end now and the wall will finish the job.


I didn't think you were so naive


The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
4
Legend
Offline
Legend
4
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823
Originally Posted By: mgh888
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
No, we were being overrun by invaders, gangs, drug dealers and scum.

That is coming to an end now and the wall will finish the job.


I didn't think you were so naive


A Nation without borders is not a Nation at all.
We take our Country back again. We change the focus to dealing with our own problems again.

We Make America Great Again! thumbsup

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
I suggest you go the actual site to read, but for those who can't click:

Quote:
Why the Wall Won't Work
The legal, practical, economic, and moral case against Trump's border barrier.

David Bier from the May 2017 issue - view article in the Digital Edition

EMAIL SHARE PRINT

Donald Trump captured the imagination of many American voters with a single campaign promise. "I will build a great, great wall on our southern border," he boasted in June 2015. For good measure, he added, "And I will have Mexico pay for that wall." The twin pledges—which followed a tirade about Mexican rapists and drug dealers—neatly captured everything that was either attractive or repulsive to voters in the real estate mogul's presidential run: bravado, nationalism, and controversy.

Joanna Andreasson
Joanna Andreasson

Trump was often criticized for lacking precision in policy ideas, but he had bold and detailed requirements for his wall. It would be 1,000 miles long. (The other 1,500, he said, were covered by "natural barriers.") He gave various estimates of its height—between 30 and 50 feet, with the most common number being 35. His barrier would be an "impenetrable physical wall" composed of "precast [concrete] plank…30 feet long, 40 feet long." He also insisted that it would be aesthetically pleasing.

While he said after the election that a fence may be appropriate in "some areas," he added that a wall would be better, and he has since vigorously corrected reporters who describe the project as a "fence." Throughout the campaign, he described the current fences as a "joke," implying that he would not only build a superior barrier, but that he would replace the one that exists at some points now.

The History
The president's proposal has a decadeslong history. After the 1986 "amnesty," when President Ronald Reagan traded increased border security for the legalization of 3 million unauthorized immigrants, the San Diego Border Patrol constructed a 10-foot welded steel fence along the 14-mile section of the border closest to the Pacific. In 1996, a new law provided funds for a second layer. Despite repeated requests from the Border Patrol for more, by the year 2000 just 60 miles of the southern border had fencing, almost all of which was in urban areas. Only San Diego had a second layer.

After 9/11, border hawks launched another push for fences, with little success. Most immigration enforcement funds were going to a surge in border agents. But President George W. Bush's push for comprehensive immigration reform, which would have legalized the unauthorized immigrants in the United States, gave the hawks their opportunity. In 2006, Congress approved the Secure Fence Act mandating nearly 700 miles of fencing on the border.

The president signed on to the bill hoping to placate the secure-the-border-first crowd and obtain the humane immigration changes that he wanted. This sales job enabled it to pass with bipartisan support from the likes of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. The immigration reform never materialized, but fence construction was nearly complete by 2009, and there are now 617 total miles of physical barriers, 36 miles of which have two layers.

Yet the hawks were not placated. They complained that there was no second layer in most places. They stewed that half the fence was just "vehicle barriers"—concrete posts that provide obstacles for drivers but not pedestrians. Moreover, the 317 miles of real pedestrian fences dramatically vary in height and quality. The Border Patrol uses half a dozen types of fencing materials—wire mesh, landing mats, chain-link, bollard, aesthetic, and sheet piling—just to control on-foot crossings. These barriers are mainly a combination of steel posts and bars supplemented in places with wire, ranging in height from 6 to 18 feet.

The Legal Obstacles
Trump has been adamant that his wall will be built "ahead of schedule." For that to happen, he'll need to avoid the various legal issues that plagued earlier efforts. Entities other than the federal government—states, Indian tribes, private individuals—control over two-thirds of borderland property. Private parties own the vast majority of the border in Texas, and for this reason, roughly 70 percent of the existing border fence is located in California, Arizona, and New Mexico. Almost all of it is on federally controlled land.

The Bush administration bullied property owners, threatening to sue them if they did not "voluntarily" hand over the rights to their land. It offered no compensation for doing so. Thinking that they had no recourse, some people signed off, but others refused. The government then attempted to use eminent domain, a procedure Trump has long defended, to seize their property, but the lawsuits imposed serious delays—seven years in one case.

In 2009, the Homeland Security inspector general concluded that the Border Patrol had "achieved [its] progress primarily in areas where environmental and real estate issues did not cause significant delay." One intransigent resident had owned his property since before the "Roosevelt easement," which gives the federal government a 60-foot right of way along the border. He fought the administration, so the fence had until recently a 1.2-mile gap on his land. Border residents fought more than a third of all land transfers, in fact. Because the Constitution promises just compensation for takings, Trump can do little to speed this process.

Native American tribes also have the capacity to stop construction of barriers. The Tohono O'odham Nation, which has land on both sides of the border, has already pledged to fight any efforts to build a wall there. In 2007, when the tribe allowed vehicle barriers to be constructed, the Bush administration ended up desecrating Indian burial grounds and digging up human remains. The new president would need a stand-alone bill from Congress to condemn their land. Senate Democrats can (and likely would) filibuster such an effort.

Even federal lands can be problematic. In 2010, two-thirds of patrol agents-in-charge told the Government Accountability Office (GAO) that land management laws had delayed or limited access to portions of federal lands, for fence building or repairs and other purposes, with more than half stating they did not get a timely response when they requested permission to use the lands. In one case, it took nearly eight months for the Border Patrol to get the OK to install a single underground sensor.

Water rights have also been a problem for the fence. A 1970 treaty requires that the floodplain of the Rio Grande remain open to both sides of the border. The Obama administration attempted to build fences along the river anyway, but the treaty and the river's floods forced the barrier to be placed so far into the interior of the United States that it has many holes to allow U.S. residents access to their property. These also provide an opportunity for border crossers.

At the same time, the fence can cause Mexico to receive too much water. Even when a fence has holes, which a wall would not, debris can turn the fence into a dam. Thanks to the barrier, some floods have fully covered the doors of Mexican buildings in Los Ebanos, across the Rio Grande, while producing little more than deep puddling on the U.S. side. The International Boundary and Water Commission that administers the treaty has rebuffed the Border Patrol's attempts to replicate this disaster in other areas of the Rio Grande Valley.

The Practical Considerations
Fences or walls obstruct crossers' paths, cutting off a straight shot into the interior of the country. But a barrier is not the permanent object that some people imagine. Natural events can knock down parts of a border fence. One storm in Texas left a hole for months. Fences and walls can also erode near rivers or beaches, as the one in San Diego did. And they can be penetrated: Some fencing can be cut in minutes, and the Border Patrol reported repairing more than 4,000 holes in one year alone. They neglected to mention whether that number equaled that year's number of breaches.

Much of the current fencing can be easily mounted with a ladder or from the roof of a truck. In some cases, border crossers can scale the fence without any additional equipment. One viral video from 2010 shows two women easily climbing an 18-foot steel bollard-style pedestrian fence in less than 20 seconds. Smugglers can even drive over the fence using ramps, a fact that was discovered only when a couple of foolish drug entrepreneurs managed to get their SUV stuck on top. (They took the dope and split.)

U.S. Customs and Border Protection (data); GAO-15-399 (map)
U.S. Customs and Border Protection (data); GAO-15-399 (map)

U.S. Customs and Border Protection, June 2011
U.S. Customs and Border Protection, June 2011
A wall would probably be less easily damaged by man or nature. But in at least some areas, its impassibility could also become a maintenance liability. Border Patrol agents have told Fox News that a border wall would still "have to allow water to pass through, or the sheer force of raging water could damage its integrity, not to mention the legal rights of both the U.S. and Mexico to seasonal rains." In 2011, for example, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of steel fence.

While not "impenetrable," a concrete wall would impede efforts to cut through it. Trump has also claimed that no one would ever use a ladder to go over his wall because "there's no way to get down." After pondering the question for a second, he then conceded, "maybe a rope." Nonetheless, the height might discourage some people from attempting to climb it, and it would certainly take them longer to do so, giving Border Patrol agents additional time to reach them.

If not over or through, some crossers may opt to go under. Tunnels are typically used more for drug smuggling, but they still create a significant vulnerability in any kind of physical barrier. From 2007 to 2010, the Border Patrol found more than one tunnel per month, on average. "For every tunnel we find, we feel they're building another one somewhere," Kevin Hecht, a Border Patrol tunnel expert, told The New York Times last year. A wall would likely increase the rewards for successful tunneling as other modes of transit grow more expensive.

Trump is unconcerned, asserting that "tunnel technology" will rule out any such subterfuge. Effective tunnel detection equipment is seen as the Holy Grail of Border Patrol enforcement, but the Homeland Security Department's Science and Technology Directorate has so far concluded that no current technology for detecting tunnels beneath the border is "suited to Border Patrol agents' operational needs."

But the biggest practical problem with a wall is its opacity. In fact, many Border Patrol agents oppose a concrete wall for precisely this reason (albeit quietly, given that they were also some of Trump's biggest supporters during the election). "A cinder block or rock wall, in the traditional sense, isn't necessarily the most effective or desirable choice," Border Patrol agents told Fox News. "Seeing through a fence allows agents to anticipate and mobilize, prior to illegal immigrants actually climbing or cutting through the fence."

The agency is already desperate to switch out the nontransparent landing-mat fences in use in some places. These metal sheets were adapted from helicopter landing pads left over from Vietnam, and while inexpensive, they are ill-suited to their purpose. Popular Mechanics described these parts of the fence as "obsolete, in need of replacement," noting that they "can be easy to foil since Border Patrol agents can't see what's going on on the other side." If a wall slows down agents as much as it does smugglers and migrants, it provides no advantage on balance.

To put it most simply, border barriers will never stop illegal immigration, because a wall or fence cannot apprehend crossers. The agents that Fox News spoke to called a wall "meaningless" without agents and technology to back it up. Mayor Michael Gomez of Douglas, Arizona, labeled the fence a failure in 2010, saying "they jump right over it." Former Border Patrol spokesperson Mike Scioli has called the fence little more than "a speed bump in the desert."

The Efficacy of a Wall
Trump speaks with absolute certainty of a wall's ability to repel entries, yet the efficacy of the existing barriers has gone largely unstudied. The president is proposing a project likely to cost tens of billions of dollars and to suck up many other resources, and he is doing so without a single evaluation of the barrier. Obviously, any obstacle to passage will reduce entries at the margin. But would other options work better?

Rep. Henry Cuellar (D–Texas) of the House Homeland Security Committee failed to obtain an answer to this exact question from the Obama administration. Chairman Michael McCaul (R–Texas) concluded in 2013 that "it would be an inefficient use of taxpayer money to complete the fence," but he gave no indication of how he evaluated the costs and benefits. A 2016 Migration Policy Institute review of the impact of walls and fences around the world turned up no academic literature specifically on the deterrent effect of physical barriers relative to other technologies or strategies, and concluded somewhat vaguely that walls appear to be "relatively ineffective."

Trump claimed no one would ever use a ladder to go over his wall because "there's no way to get down." He pondered, then conceded, "maybe a rope."

Fences can have strong local effects, and the case for more fencing often relies completely on these regional outcomes. Take the San Diego border sector, probably the most commonly cited success story in this debate.

From 1990 to 1993, it replaced a "totally ineffective" fence with a taller, opaque landing mat fence along 14 miles of the border. This had little impact on the number of border crossers. "The primary fence, by itself, did not have a discernible impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens coming across the border in San Diego," the Congressional Research Service concluded.

From 1994 to 1996, Operation Gatekeeper doubled the number of agents in the sector to reinforce the fence, but this too had little effect on the number of apprehended migrants. (Researchers use apprehensions as a proxy for illegal immigration because they usually track closely to the number of total entries.) Instead, the apprehensions shifted dramatically away from the areas guarded by western stations at Imperial Beach and Chula Vista, where fences were built, and toward eastern stations. The net flow remained the same.

From 1997 to 1999, when the San Diego sector was reinforced with nine miles of secondary fencing and even more agents were added, the numbers did finally slow. But looking at the apprehension figures, it appears that San Diego simply pushed its problem even further east, to the El Centro, Yuma, and Tucson sectors. Each agent in those places ended up apprehending more people after the fence was built than before.

Ideally, we would perform the same type of before-and-after analysis of the impact of the Secure Fence Act of 2006. The problem is that those barriers were rolled out at the same time that Congress almost doubled the size of the Border Patrol, increasing it from 12,000 to 21,000 agents. Moreover, fences went up in many different sectors, making it difficult to isolate the effects. To complicate matters further, this period saw the collapse of the housing bubble, which caused a huge exodus of unauthorized workers back to Mexico.

The Unintended Consequences
The numbers from this period also suggest that counting "reduced crossings" as a victory may be misleading. As the amount of fencing and the number of agents grew, the share of unauthorized immigrants entering illegally fell, but the number entering legally (and then staying illegally) rose.

In 2006, the Pew Research Center calculated that more than a third of all unauthorized immigrants entered lawfully and then simply overstayed their visas. People who come to the U.S. as tourists or temporary business travelers are forbidden from working, so a small number remain after their visa expires to work under the table. For every three border crossers in 1992, there was one overstay. But by 2012, visa overstays accounted for 58 percent of all new unauthorized immigrants. A wall not only will do nothing to stop these people from entering, but it may actually incentivize more people to stick around without authorization.

http://reason.com/archives/2017/03/31/why-the-wall-wont-work

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
O
OCD Offline
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,804
MAGA... lol. Trump failing like he has at everything he's ever done, only this time we'll all be the ones bankrupt.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,835
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,835
That's an interesting and fairly well rounded article. It looks at legal aspect, physical limitations and ongoing maintenance and of course effectiveness.

I don't think it touches on another critical aspect - unless something has changed since I last heard - Trump is proposing a fence along only about 1/3 of the border. In the article it talks about how San Diego pushed the problem to Yuma and Tuscon .... If 2/3 of the border is 'open' all you are doing is moving the bubble, not getting rid of it.

I think if you look at all the challenges - the cost and the total inability to even suggest the effectiveness of a partial fence costing $1.6 Billion ..... I think it sounds like a giant crock of political rhetoric that would end up being a subject of mockery a bit like the $300 million bridge to nowhere.

The idea that the USA will eliminate or even seriously reduce illegal crossings by this measure is naive at best. Having lived in AZ and known border patrol agents - a bigger challenge to solve and one that would actually contribute to easing the problem: What Mexico does with the illegals that the USA captures and sends back. A fraction of the cost of a wall could be used to create something on that front imo

Last edited by mgh888; 07/28/17 08:03 AM.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
I think that the $1.6 billion is just a down payment on the wall. I believe the projected cost is around $25 billion.

It's lunacy.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
V
Legend
Offline
Legend
V
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
This is an interesting article about the wall. It contains great photos and was written during the election.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160304-us-mexico-border-fence-wall-photos-immigration/

Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus America rolls on...to the grave

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5