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The waiting isn't on the players' sides?
Not sure if you were talking to me or not.....but I didn't say that....I said the "delay" isn't because of the players.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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My only concern about "who starts" is that I would like to see them give our OL a little time to gel as a unit before they throw Brady in there for fear the pressure will cause the possibility of developing bad habits.
Well, you are kinda assuming that Quinn is the real deal... What if Frye beats him out and takes us to the Playoffs this year (I'm asking a What If question,, I did NOT say it would happen so please).
Whats the first thing that comes to mind here..... Drew Brees/Phillip Rivers maybe,, That wouldn't be that bad would it..
How about Ryan/Ninowski? Actually, that wouldn't be that bad either.
Everytime I hear someone on these or other boards insist that this QB is better than that QB, I think back to the Days of Frank Ryan and how about 40% of the fans wanted Ryan, 40% wanted Ninowski and the other 20% were saying if you have two QB's, you don't have any, so they wanted anyone else 
So, partly because it doesn't matter really, and partly because I don't want to be let down again, I'm just saying, it just doesn't matter to me at all. As long as we win,,,, they could have Daffy Duck back there 
#GMSTRONG
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Well, you are kinda assuming that Quinn is the real deal... What if Frye beats him out and takes us to the Playoffs this year (I'm asking a What If question,, I did NOT say it would happen so please).
That's the really bad part about a message board. Sometimes things get misunderstood.
Let me "attempt" to clarify. IF they decide to start Brady,I hope they at LEAST wait untill the OL can Gel and provide him with the things I described.
I like Charlie! Just look at his QB rating under Davidson verses Mo! I think he's got one HELLUVA lot more potential than what we've seen! And Mo was why IMO
My point was,concerning everyone in the QB equasion,starting Quinn too early scares the hell out of me.
I think had Charlie had a "good offensive coaching staff" working with him,people would see a far different QB right now. All-pro? I doubt it. But at least we would have a realistic look at what he's capable of.
I was just trying to indicate what I thought would be the "worst case scenario" in the Browns overall QB situation as a team.
Sorry if I came off as indicating anything otherwise
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I like Charlie! Just look at his QB rating under Davidson verses Mo! I think he's got one HELLUVA lot more potential than what we've seen! And Mo was why IMO
Stats are for losers.
#gmstrong
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That's the really bad part about a message board. Sometimes things get misunderstood.
True enough, that happens a lot on here and other boards.. I now understand your point.,. Thanks
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Actually, your perception is quite wrong. If the team would offer initially what the players sign for, the agents would still DELAY the signings by trying to get more money. It's pretty naive to say that if the final offer had been the initial offer these guys would jump and sign immediately.
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I'll say it again. I'll bet anything anyone want that if he's healthy, charlie is starting game one. Quinn doesn't stand a chance, and charlie is just plain better than DA.
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Actually, your perception is quite wrong. If the team would offer initially what the players sign for, the agents would still DELAY the signings by trying to get more money. It's pretty naive to say that if the final offer had been the initial offer these guys would jump and sign immediately.
What perception were you speaking of and again, what did I say that sounded naive to you?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Oooops, sorry, I meant to click on Peen. 
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I don't think it is...everybody knows the basic worth.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yes, and the agent's job is to get the most money possible, not the "basic worth". So if the team would start with what the player eventually signs for, then the agent would delay to drive that price up.
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As I said before, it's not just the agents job to get the most money, it's the agents job to get THE BEST DEAL... that includes guaranteed money, number of years, option years and who controls the options, etc... There is a lot more to negotiating one of these deals than just the bottom line...
yebat' Putin
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I absolutely agree. My point is that if the team starts with the offer that the player eventually signs, all it does is raise the amount the end up signing for. I can't imagine the agent signing the first deal offered.
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Watch it buster or I'll sic PPE on ya,,, or worse yet,,, I'll sic GM Dawg on ya,,,, (whatever you do, don't pull his finger )
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Just clicking...a lot of splinter threads within the thread. Well a little comment on several subjects.
1. By all indications BQ seems to be heading for a long holdout - of course we could be surprised - BQ won't see the field in 07.
2. Frye is more than compentant - I saw improvement from him and he was thrown into a situation that was doomed to fail. 2 OCs, No established OL, No running game and yet I saw improvement in him. Sure the growth was retarded, I don't care if we had Peyton Manning the growth in that environment would have still been retarded.
3. BQ will take over the reigns after winning the competition in next years training camp. Thats if he is the QB we all hope he is.
4. Wimbley was the first rookie to start game 1??? Am I mistaken? He was also in camp on time. If wrong then he started soon...real soon!
5. Jaguars showed interest in Frye...AFTER we drafted BQ, it was then and only then that the Jags deemed Frye possibly available. The statement why didn't they draft BQ is totally irrelevant.
6. There are 61 unsigned first n 2nd rounders in the NFL we are in the standard process of the NFL regarding negotiations not the "BAD" exception.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I like Charlie! Just look at his QB rating under Davidson verses Mo! I think he's got one HELLUVA lot more potential than what we've seen! And Mo was why IMO
Stats are for losers.
Yes they are..............
But it can "give you an indication". Little else.
And you can look at his record as it pertains to starts under Davidson verses Mo.
No,it's nothing that "proves" anything. I wouldn't use these stats as something to base an "informed decision or arguement" upon either.
But it gives us some indication that there may be more potential there than what we saw in him playing the "system" (if you can all it that) Mo had implemented.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And you can look at his record as it pertains to starts under Davidson verses Mo.
You mean these stats 
1-5 - Frye's record as a starter under Carthon last year
3-4 - Frye's record as a starter under Davidson last year
67.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Carthon last year
77.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Davidson last year
52.1% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Carthon
55.4% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Davidson
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And you can look at his record as it pertains to starts under Davidson verses Mo.
You mean these stats
1-5 - Frye's record as a starter under Carthon last year
3-4 - Frye's record as a starter under Davidson last year
67.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Carthon last year
77.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Davidson last year
52.1% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Carthon
55.4% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Davidson
Why do these matter? Both Carthon and Davidson are gone, these stats don't mean anything anymore. There just for show now. 
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And you can look at his record as it pertains to starts under Davidson verses Mo.
You mean these stats
1-5 - Frye's record as a starter under Carthon last year
3-4 - Frye's record as a starter under Davidson last year
67.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Carthon last year
77.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Davidson last year
52.1% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Carthon
55.4% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Davidson
And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
He did?
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
He did?
Yeah, I don't have the link but I remember it being posted pre-draft.
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You mean these stats [  ]
1-5 - Frye's record as a starter under Carthon last year
3-4 - Frye's record as a starter under Davidson last year
67.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Carthon last year
77.3 - Frye's QB Rating under Davidson last year
52.1% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Carthon
55.4% - Winning % of opponents Frye played against under Davidson
I don't suppose any of the improved performance could be attributed in any way at all to Frye's gaining experience and making progress as the season progressed?
Of course not.
Now are we to suppose that the stats of a single player is proof positive of the competence of his offensive coordinator?
This is why "stats are for losers". Because losers, whomever they may be (and they may or may not include you), can use stats in meaningless ways to prove meaningless points which in the end, of themselves, actually prove nothing.
You don't have to put any stock into what Pit has been trying to get across to you. You can continue to offer "stats as explanations" regarding football matters. But if you care at all about being taken seriously you may want to include some actual "football observations" beyond that which stats have to offer. Because stats offer little more than a record of yardage and percentages. They give no glimpse whatsoever into how those stats came to be.
That is their biggest failing.
"The NFL determines the best players by adding up all their yards no matter what situations they came in or how many plays it took to get them. Now why would they do that? Football has one objective-to get to the end zone-and two ways to achieve that, by gaining yards and getting first downs. These two goals need to be balanced to determine a player's value or a team's performance.
All the yards in the world aren't useful if they all come in eight-yard chunks on third-and-10 ."
www.footballoutsiders.com
Stats are not useless. But as Pit has been trying to tell you, isolated stats prove only as a record, not as an explanation or evidence of what has actually happened on the field.
A perfect example would be Jerome Bettis's game in '04 when he had 5 carries for 1 yard. That's .02 yards per carry. Not a very good game for the Bus. Apparently he was not very effective that day and surely didn't help his team out much at all. Heck, they only gave him the ball 5 times in the whole dang game. Maybe he was playing hurt.
But what that isolated stat fails to mention is that he scored all 3 of the Steeler's touchdowns in a 24-21 win over the Raiders with that 1 single yard because each of those carries was very short and goal to go and he scored on 3 of the 5 carries.
Quite a far cry from the assumptions that 5 carries for 1 yard would conjure up.
Figures don't lie but liars figure.
That's not to call you a liar. I don't believe that's your intent at all. But while the figures are not wrong, they can be wrongly figured into an assumption or determined into a wrong conclusion.
Consider that when you are about to post stats to make a proclamation.
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U and Pit certainly are taking alot of time to say .. STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!! *LOL* .... How about THIS STAT ..... we TRADED back into rnd 1 to draft BQ .... thats the ONLY RELEVANT STAT in all this .... Frye will ride the pine no matter how many STATS (the ONES FOR LOSERS) MenZa (The King of ... well U figure it out ... ) ..... runs out .. its not IF ... its WHEN .... does anything else really matter????
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Yes,those are the stats I was refering to. I don't think those stats "mean a whole lot". But it do think it gives us an indication that a few things seem fairly possible from looking at them I think it means that Frye might be better than he looked playing under Mo as the OC. That he may have the potential to be a better QB and still progress some. In short,I think it means he could very well become a very good answer to the back-up QB position for the long term if these stats prove to be a trend rather than a fluke. He's a scrappy kid with a lot of fire! I like Frye a lot being on our team and think that "with the right coaching" he can improve. But I'm basing that on "what I saw from him" under Davidson combined with those stats to form that opinion. I've also seen enough lacking in his skill set and bad habits (be them developed AFTER he got here or wheather he had them BEFORE he got here) to believe that he is not "franchise QB material". I could be wrong about that. But from trusting my eyes and combining those stats with what I saw,that's the conclusion I've drawn. I'm a "trenches" guy and have a pretty damned good batting average on eyeing and choosing talent in that department. But other than that,I don't claim to be "a talent evaluater". I can see obvious trends like a player being injury prone,lacking certain skills,having negative habits,etc..... But that's about it. IF Charlie turns out to be better than a "top notch back-up" I'll be thrilled about it! Like I said,I REALLY like the kids fire and guts. But I have to try to be realistic. And in doing so,I've described what I've seen and given my opinion on it. I wouldn't dare take those ststs and try to make a case that Charlie has the qualities to be a franchise QB. Because at that juncture,I feel I would fall deeply and quickly into the "stats are for losers" category!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
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He did?
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Yeah, I don't have the link but I remember it being posted pre-draft.
I too remember discussion between Savage and Davidson. But I don't remember Charlie Frye being the focal point of any of them.
Unless you can provide a link to your claim, I'm going to have to consider that you remember it wrong, perhaps fueled by your dislike of " # 9 ".
If you are right you need to post a link. We all have to be careful of posting comments as fact that are not common knowledge. If in case the information is indeed wrong, it will still get repeated as "fact" because it's read on this board. All that serves to do is water down the knowledge base of the board members.
This board has a history dating back to the beginning of the DawgTalk days, when it was the official board of the Cleveland Browns, to not allow unsubstantiated "facts" or rumors. That policy has been followed to the present day on this board, (being a cronological extention of DawgTalk).
"Apparently, Davidson did not hold back on his evaluations of players in his interview, either.
He told General Manager Phil Savage -- who led the search and hiring -- that there were large needs on offense, and some of his criticisms went right to players signed the past two years."
Pat McManamon_Akron Beacon Journal
"The problems between General Manager Phil Savage and Davidson were typical of a coach/GM. The coach favored his veteran players, especially Andruzzi. Savage wanted to look at someone else at guard because he thought that Andruzzi was so banged up physically."
Terry Pluto_Akron Beacon Journal
There are two links to articles written regarding Davidson's interview with Savage. The first one dates back to January '07. These are what I remember being discussed.
You may be right about what you remember. But I certainly don't remember it and would like to be refreshed if it's true.
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I've also seen enough lacking in his skill set and bad habits...
Are there no stats kept on bad habits? 
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If I could wish one improvement for CF, it'd be his arm strength. Arm strength isn't as vital as other skills, but if you're less than average in that respect, it's limiting. Having said that, I don't ignore the possibility that CF has enough attributes to be a average or better-than average as a QB. Nor do I ignore the possiblity that BQ might not pan out and be as good as some posters  say he will.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I've also seen enough lacking in his skill set and bad habits...
Are there no stats kept on bad habits?
Not that I'm aware of.
Nor footwork,mechanics,reading your progressions or a host of other things one must trust "their eyes" for.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Stats are overused, but they are a measure of the players and teams productivity.
One thing that irritates me is the "Quarterback" rating. There is no such stat it is a "passer" rating. It does not consider things other than completion%, ypa, td% and int%. So a QB tosses a bomb and the reciever gets tackled at the 1, and the QB rating is hurt. It does not consider more relvant terms such as unforced ints (exclude the recivers miscues and end of half hail mary int's), fumbles lost or 3rd down conversion%. I think Aikman was advocating a more complete formula for QB's that considered the above.
As a general rule, good QB's have higher passer ratings.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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Having said that, I don't ignore the possibility that CF has enough attributes to be a average or better-than average as a QB.
Hey,the better he becomes,the better it is for the Browns! I'm rooting for him to do well!
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Nor do I ignore the possiblity that BQ might not pan out and be as good as some posters say he will.
I must say that he has the skill set,athletic ability and presence of mind that could lead to greatness.
But the fact is,he's never taken a snap in the NFL. How all of those attributes translate on the field at this level,is not an exact science nor a garuntee of a high level of success. But as a Browns fan,I'm sure hoping for the best!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Stats are overused, but they are a measure of the players and teams productivity.
One thing that irritates me is the "Quarterback" rating. There is no such stat it is a "passer" rating. It does not consider things other than completion%, ypa, td% and int%. So a QB tosses a bomb and the reciever gets tackled at the 1, and the QB rating is hurt. It does not consider more relvant terms such as unforced ints (exclude the recivers miscues and end of half hail mary int's), fumbles lost or 3rd down conversion%. I think Aikman was advocating a more complete formula for QB's that considered the above.
As a general rule, good QB's have higher passer ratings.
This is exactly why - instead of stats - I like to mostly rely on the 'what I see with my own eyes test'.
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Aikman does have what I think is a better system taking more things into consideration. He makes some of his grades available in his articles and I was impressed by them.
FootballOutsiders.com also takes down and distance, field position and quality of opposition, among many other things, into account and their statistics are a far cry better than the "record-keeping stats" of the NFL.
I think they all fall short and are no subsitute for observation by a discriminating eye. But, as you say, used wisely in conjunction with observation, stats can be very helpful in evaluations.
But when a few scarce stats are used to back up an agenda, without observational comments especially, they usually don't command much respect or consideration from me.
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Pit, I'd love a franchise QB, a franchise-changer like Manning or Tom Brady. I hope the experts are right about BQ, and IMO even if he doesn't live up to the hype, the trade was well worth the risk.
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
Man I must be totally losing it.. I don't remember this at all.. Not at all!
in another post you say it was a pre draft conversation between Davidson and Savage,,, but which draft. Davidson was gone for this past draft, and the draft previous, well, that was the draft after Charlie started a few games in place of Dilfer.. kinda hard to believe that after that fiasco anyone could say anything super negative about Frye... (what with him being a rook and not having a line or running game)
So, which draft are we speaking of here? I'm totall lost man,,
#GMSTRONG
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
Man I must be totally losing it.. I don't remember this at all.. Not at all!
in another post you say it was a pre draft conversation between Davidson and Savage,,, but which draft. Davidson was gone for this past draft, and the draft previous, well, that was the draft after Charlie started a few games in place of Dilfer.. kinda hard to believe that after that fiasco anyone could say anything super negative about Frye... (what with him being a rook and not having a line or running game)
So, which draft are we speaking of here? I'm totall lost man,,
It was after the '06 season, before the '07 draft. I wish I remembered the link or the site it was on because I swear by it. I don't make stuff up (or use ridiculous stats) to trash a player. I use my eyes.
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It happened right around the time that Lerner caved to Ammo, wrote an apology to the fans, and Savage slated Troy Smith at #3 in the draft. 
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Quote:
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And Davidson told Savage that #9 can't get it done.
Take that for what it's worth.
Man I must be totally losing it.. I don't remember this at all.. Not at all!
in another post you say it was a pre draft conversation between Davidson and Savage,,, but which draft. Davidson was gone for this past draft, and the draft previous, well, that was the draft after Charlie started a few games in place of Dilfer.. kinda hard to believe that after that fiasco anyone could say anything super negative about Frye... (what with him being a rook and not having a line or running game)
So, which draft are we speaking of here? I'm totall lost man,,
It was after the '06 season, before the '07 draft. I wish I remembered the link or the site it was on because I swear by it. I don't make stuff up (or use ridiculous stats) to trash a player. I use my eyes.
I knew I wasn't crazy, they rehashed it in this morning's News Herald...here's the link!
http://www.news-herald.com/site/news.cfm...21848&rfi=6
"Frye threw 17 interceptions and lost seven fumbles. He was especially ineffective inside the 20. He made mistakes that cost the Browns games, such as the time he threw an interception in the end zone against the Ravens on Sept. 24. Baltimore turned the takeaway into a game-winning field goal on the final play to win, 15-14.
Jeff Davidson, who took over as offensive coordinator with 10 games left, had no confidence in Frye. It was evident in the plays he called, and after leaving the Browns to be the offensive coordinator for the Panthers, Davidson said Frye is not good enough to be an NFL starter.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
...after leaving the Browns to be the offensive coordinator for the Panthers, Davidson said...
After leaving the Browns...Davidson said...
That's a far cry from "Davidson told Savage". I suppose you could infer that he did since he obviously made the statement (again?) at a later time. But, nonetheless, Davidson did publicly say that about Charlie so I'll give you the nod for the comment.
Also, kudos for looking it up. Statements backed up by facts are relevent.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,853
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,853 |
He wasnt a Brown at the time.. I could care less.. He's just bitter.. Delhomme isnt really that great of a QB (pretty close to Frye if you ask me).. so Davidson went to the right place if he was looking for QB's with talent.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
*LOL* .. i could care less what Davidson said or thinks ... but U guys are amazing ...
Pit says he saw improvement with frye under Davidson .. that just cracks me up .. Jeff did not make him any smarter or make his arm stronger ... *LOL* ..
and why would he be bitter??? ... EXCUSES to make yourselves feel better makes u SOUND BITTER ..... *L* ...
and Delhome is LIGHT YEARS BETTER THAN FRYE ..... not even close ...
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