DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would any other NFL team not fire a 1-19 coach ?

That's what I mean by football wisdom. Hue would be wise to simplify the offense with high percentage plays. He should be using the TEs like crazy and design running plays that aren't so predictable. With this lack of talent, you have to get very creative and keep the D guessing. But Nooooo, Hue throws the book at these young players snuffs out any chance at success.

BDU & Vers, both valid posts. So, we’re stuck in the “chicken and the egg” situation?

Ham, I know it sucks, but I just think we gotta give all of these guys a few years. Then again, I've been saying that for decades now. LOL

I hear you, Vers. And you are correct.

I am struggling with my thoughts. I kind of mentioned this in a PM to a poster who was checking up on me to see if I truly did not watch the Indy game like I claimed I would (I did not, and also skipped the Hou game).

Anyway, the struggle is the contradiction I am experiencing. I knew this season was going to be ugly (when I predicted 4 wins I knew that was optimistic) yet I am really torqued off by the product I have seen. Maybe it's because there has been no sense of any improvement?

This thread is as good of a place to post this as any.

This year is painful. It was supposed to be painful. We had to rip down to the studs and it can't be built overnight.

But let's look at what is possible in the next offseason.

Free Agency

Browns sign Kirk Cousins to the largest contract in NFL history. 5 years $150 mil with a $75 mil signing bonus.

Browns sign Jarvis Landry to 5 years $50 mil with a $15 mil signing bonus.

Draft

Browns trade the #1 overall pick! Yeah, I know what you are thinking. "Of course they did!" but hear me out. The Browns Trade #1 overall to San Francisco for their # 3 this year, #34 this year and their #1 pick in 2019. San Francisco had planned on signing Cousins but were outbid by Cleveland. They now need to jump past the Giants who wants to draft Eli's eventual replacement.

With the 3rd pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Derwin James FS Florida State. The Browns get a big, versatile, fast, FS and Peppers moves into his role as WS/Moneyback. Two positions upgraded.

With the 12th Pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Christian Kirk, WR, Texas A&M. The best WR in the draft in my opinion.

With the 34th Pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Courtland Sutton, WR, SMU.

With the 35th Pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Parris Campbell, WR, Ohio State

With the 42nd Pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Nick Chubb, RB, Georgia

With the 60th Pick of the NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select Jordan Thomas, CB, Oklahoma

That's just the first two rounds. It's hard to project past that this early, but here are the picks that we have left...

1 3rd round pick
2 4th rounders
2 5th rounders
2 6th rounder
1 7th rounder

Then in 2019 they have two 1st rounders again.

The Browns got there because they kept pushing Cap money forward over the years and could outbid everyone for Cousins without destroying the Cap.

They can front load Cousin's contract easily and essentially make it a 3 year deal,if it doesn't work out, while continuing to work with Kizer to be his heir.

They pick up Landry in FA to be the veteran catch machine and 3 very promising young WR's early in the draft.

They get who I think is the best player in the draft in FS James and a young talented CB Thomas to go with him.

They get a human battering ram of a RB that was good enough as a freshman to split time with an older Todd Gurley.

Now how does it look?

How much better does Hue's offense look with a top veteran QB at the helm throwing to WR's that can get open and catch the ball?

How much easier is the running game going to be with a monster like Chubb running behind this o-line?

How much better is the defense going to look when we actually have a FS playing, Peppers in the box and Thomas on the other side of McCourty?

Or....

We can start firing guys.

That means that now all of a sudden a lot of these one and two year players don't fit the new guys system and a lot of that cap money and those draft picks go to replacements instead of the final pieces.

Even if we kept everyone, which we wouldn't, everyone is back in rookie mode and learning new offensive and defensive schemes before they could master the schemes that they just started learning!

This two year cycle has been repeated so many times in Cleveland, it's sickening.

deputy, I am not certain I agree with all your specific moves but I do agree with the general premise that if we stay the course we could see a dramatic improvement with our team next year. two thoughts I would add. first, I could see the addition of a player evaluator to our mgmt team. maybe even someone who would determine our draft picks. in my dreams Peyton manning signs on . second, if we indeed have the first pick and our guys are convinced that there is a franchise qb available I would take him even on top of a free agent signing like cousins. I do believe haslam has learned that good things come to those who wait.

I agree with staying the course as tough as it is to swallow. But Deputy has come up with a "plan" and a viable one at that. I agree with most of it and it would make us a better team and address our weaknesses. I wonder if our FO reads these forums or is there no need too because they have already thought of these scenarios and are just waiting to carry them out in due time.

This week may be the last winnable game on the schedule. And people want to stick with the plan.
Loopy:

Winnable suggests there’s a chance. That’s what I think is

The Browns need to stay the course.

But, it won't happen over night.

If they stay the course, they could easily win 3-5 games by 2020. (in one season even)

I believe that there is 0 chance we sign a high dollar free agent WR, and then spend 3 of our top 4 picks on WR as well.

At least Dep was posting constructive thoughts instead of the typical "Hue is in over his head" or "the play calling sucks."

Dep and I have gone at it in the past, but he has pretty good knowledge and I like his ideas more than the blame game crowd.

Yeah, I just don't see it happening like that.

I could see us signing a FA WR, and then drafting one high in the draft .... or drafting 2 WR high in the draft ..... but I don't see us using a ton of assets on 4 WR. That was my only point.

I just tried to but names of guys around where we would be picking rather than a mock draft, and this draft happens to be WR heavy.

This is more of a demonstration of the draft ammo that we have than anything and you could just as easily swap a CB or another position in one of those WR spots.

The funny thing was that I couldn't pick my favorite WR Equanimeous St Brown because he be gone somewhere between 12 and 34, but if I traded down from #12, somebody would have shot me.

For this season, here's what I would like to see:

-eliminate all the shifts, or cut them down considerably
-emphasize the TE throws
-play a 2 back set

I wonder if HJ's offenses are just too complex in their verbiage in the huddle.

I don't think it is too much to ask to just not have delay of game penalties for not being able to get the play in, huddle broken, and ball snapped.

Tennessee is one of the teams they beat since 2014.

I figure it's one of the few teams the Browns might have a chance against, the others being, the 49ers, Baltimore, Tennessee, and maybe the Jets.
And any team missing their quarterback.

Manziel, Pettine, Travis Benjamin, and a 3 turnover advantage, and the Browns beat the Titans in 2015.

Ok so you fire him the new coach does not like garrett so he trades to the pittsburgh steelers.
What coach are you going to get that can outcoach a proven 8 win coach without garrett?

This 2 year cycle has been repeated.
Mangini was 10-22 with the Browns.
Pettine was also 10-22 with the Browns.

If the 2017 Browns go 9-1 to finish out:
Hue Jackson would also be 10-22.

We really only need 2 more WR's. We already have Corey and a bunch of other guys that can fill in 4 and 5. The 2 more we get have to be a #1 and #2 talent.

I think a lot was thrown at the 2016 draft in attempt to fix the WR position. Will that group prove to be able to step up or do we throw more picks at the selection.

On a side note, Pryor is not getting the production he had hoped in leaving the Browns to a team with players better than him. Do you think we can lure him back? Just saying, he can play and performed well under Hue with 2 different teams. Maybe I'm just wishful and salty over his decision to leave.

TP would be nuts NOT to want to come back here.

I actually want to see more Treggs, Williams and Coates. Who knows what we have there.

Treggs seems shifty and fast.

who is throwin him the ball? 4th string...5th string....tanny from bucks?

The Browns were 1-15 in the first year of the New Browns Order. They are 0-6 in the second year.

How does that compare with recent terrible stretches in the NFL?

In the NFL modern era – which is generally regarded as after the merger of the NFL and AFL starting in 1970 – there have been 12 instances of a team winning one or no games. Only one time has that team failed to win more games the following year.

Here is the (dis) honor roll:

2009 St. Louis Rams, 1-15. 2010 Rams, 7-9.

2008 Detroit Lions, 0-16. 2009 Lions, 2-14.

2007 Miami Dolphins, 1-15. 2008 Dolphins, 11-5.

2001 Carolina Panthers, 1-15. 2002 Panthers, 7-9.

2000 San Diego Chargers, 1-15. 2001 Chargers, 5-11.

1991 Indianapolis Colts, 1-15. 1992 Colts, 9-7.

1990 New England Patriots, 1-15. 1991 Patriots, 6-10.

1989 Dallas Cowboys, 1-15. 1990 Cowboys, 7-9.

1980 New Orleans Saints, 1-15. 1981 Saints, 4-12.

1976 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 0-14. 1977 Buccaneers, 2-12.

1973 Houston Oilers, 1-13. 1974 Oilers, 1-13.

1971 Buffalo Bills, 1-13. 1972 Bills, 4-9-1.

Wheels of change?: In the above examples, improvement in Year 2 was the result of coaching or regime changes six times. Of the six regimes that stayed intact, only the 1973-74 Oilers failed to improve, and a coaching change occurred during the second season.

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/...-browns-blow-up

Now there is an uplifting article that really examined the records of all the teams from various articles and was not subjectively damning at all.

I love honest reporting.

lol

The Wr production will get better when Corey Coleman returns healthy.

1-23 coach.

It's a shame we can't fire our stupid owner.

Don't know how you feel about hypothetical questions .... But here goes.

I think Belichick is the best HC in football. What do you think his record would have been in the last 24 games if he had been the HC of the Browns?

I haven't thought about it before now - But I think he obviously wins more games. But because of the tear down and the rebuild I'd be somewhat amazed if he could muster more than 6 wins. If that. I certainly don't see more. And that's the best HC in the NFL. I bet at least half of the NFL HC's would have had the same record. I bet some would have had a worse record ... the one thing i don't think anyone can deny is that the team has not quit which is truly remarkable. . . . There was some love for Chud on here the other day - and if anyone can remember his 1 season, the team absolutely mailed in it at the end of that season. I think that speaks greatly of Hue.

Bill B would have been 7-9 then 10-6 in that neighborhood

I find that hard to believe sorry, Hue hasn't done a great job and I'm not defending him. But the head coach can only go as far as the talent he has and you don't see NE constantly trading down passing on elite talent to stock pile draft picks. It's just a bad strategy and it doesn't work, yet we keep doing it. I just can't see any coach being successful in this system. Sorry.

Hues stubbornness and lack of creativity on offense makes our players look bad. It takes time and effort to be creative and Hue has way too much on his plate. He makes the players look bad with his plan. The whole team is not really that bad. The lack of discipline is through the roof. Even Bill B has an OC.. It's all on the head coach. The FO gets an F too!!!

"The team tends to take on the personality of the head coach"

Said Bill Cowher. Today.

Speaking about a completely other situation though.

To be honest, I do think another HC would have won more games. Now to address the Bill B. theory, first BB would have launched Bowe and Britt within days of their first shenanigans. Add to that J Gordon, and everyone else he thought was an anchor. (Since he's his own GM.) Second, he would have tailored his game plan to his personnel. He's changed the offense there, what, four times? Third, he would have done what he does now: demand total commitment to his program/ ideology.

If you look at his draft record, it's not anything super-duper, but he is consistent with the type of person he wants. Not just the type of player. Look at the guys who excelled under him: Bruschi, Vrabel, Ninkovich, Edelman, Gronkowski, etc. All smart, dedicated team-first types.

I don't think another coach would have won more games. However, I do think that Hue would have won a bunch of games w/other teams, such as the Steelers.

I'm looking at their draft choices. How in the hell do they always draft better players than us even though they draft after us?

Vers, I think you and I will just have to accept we are on the flip sides of the coin on this, lol.

I honestly think that Hue could have won more games, IF he was coaching a team that had the players that could run his offense. Sadly, that isn't the case here.

That said, I remarked in another thread that I liked what he was calling in the first half today. It looked like he realized what he had on the field, and was trying to play to their strengths.

Maybe it was an epiphany for him, who can say?

I'd like to see him use the TE's in slant/digs/etc. a bit more. Take those 8-12 yarders, and roll down the field.

We definitely disagree. The roster is young and inexperienced. We don't have difference makers, especially at the skill positions. Blaming Hue is the easy thing to do and isn't based on objective reasoning.

Hue Jackson, This is a complete disaster in every department of the building. Watching rookie quarterback DeShone Kizer suffer again Sunday, falling apart in the second half, while other young quarterbacks soar, will doom every football person in that building. Because owners don't fire themselves. It's over for coaches and personnel. This ended up another lopsided loss, getting trounced in the second half by the Vikings in London. The Browns have one win since Jackson took over before the 2016 season and they have four wins since December 2014 (GM Sashi Brown, in differing roles, has been there for every single one of those losses). Cleveland is 4-41 in its last 45 games, an unfathomable degree of failure in a league of parity. They could easily go 1-15 again. It's over. Hue causes the team to look really bad. It will be glorious when Hue is finally gone!