DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should the front office get a pass, again?

Then why bring it up as something fundamental to your argument?

This should bring the not re-signing Terrelle Pryor issues to an end, but it won't

Terrelle Pryor - WR - Redskins

Terrelle Pryor failed to catch his lone target in Washington's Week 8 loss to the Cowboys.
Pryor was fully faded in this one, playing just 20 snaps by Pro Football Focus' count. Josh Doctson was on the field for 50, and got the start. Pryor wasn't spotted until the second quarter. The Redskins are fed up with his play, and moving on to Doctson and Jamison Crowder. It's hard to give up the ghost on Pryor's upside, but he's looking droppable in all formats.

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football/?ls=roto%3anfl%3amorenewsbottom

Oh, if he could only go back in time and take the long-term deal we offered.

J/c:



Dougherty: Without Aaron Rodgers, Packers just another team

In the last 2½ seasons, the Cleveland Browns are 4-35.

That’s right. Four wins and 35 losses, a .102 winning percentage. They’ve won one of their last 27 games and are winless (0-7) this season.

The Green Bay Packers, on the other hand, have played in the NFC Championship game twice in the last three years. Just two weeks ago, they were 4-1 and had the second-best odds (9-to-2) to win the Super Bowl, according to Bovada.lv.

In the current NFL landscape, these teams couldn’t be further apart. The Packers are a perennial contender. The Browns are the most ridiculed team in the league.

But Aaron Rodgers’ broken collarbone, which will sideline him for a minimum of a couple months and could be season ending, shows that these teams also define today’s NFL. Because the gulf that separates them comes down mostly to one position, the quarterback.

That is the difference between the haves and have-nots of the NFL. You’ve surely heard it before. But to appreciate just how true it is, it’s instructive to compare the rosters of these two teams, leaving out the future Hall of Famer Rodgers and the collection of flops, journeymen and rookies – Austin Davis, Cody Kessler, Johnny Manziel, Robert Griffin III, Josh McCown and DeShone Kizer – who have led the Browns just since 2015.

To do so, I consulted a high-ranking executive for an NFL team who took time from his busy schedule to go through the rosters position by position and discuss the implications.

The gist of our conversation was this: The Packers have better players, but not by all that much. Yet they’re a perennial title contender, whereas the Browns are the NFL’s laughingstock.

“Tells you the state of the NFL,” the executive said. “It’s all about the quarterback position.”

Accompanying this column is a synopsis of the scout’s breakdown. The conversation was last week, before Brett Hundley’s first start as the Packers’ quarterback, and before Browns tackle Joe Thomas sustained a season-ending torn triceps.

For brevity, here we’ll include only the scout’s bottom line. Each position was judged as a big edge, medium edge, small edge or push.

The Packers had two big edges (receiver and safety) to the Browns’ one (running back).

Each team had one medium edge: the Packers’ defensive front (their outside linebackers included), the Browns’ linebackers.

Each had a small edge: the Packers’ offensive line, the Browns’ tight ends.

And two positions were a push: cornerback and specialists.

The Packers come out ahead, no question. But the difference is hardly overwhelming.

Another way to compare is by the color-coded ratings for each roster. That tells you which team has more difference makers and good players. Those are the guys that win games.

I asked the scout to identify the blue-red-gold players (there’s also black, green, yellow, white, brown), not including the quarterbacks. Here are those results:

BLUE (Pro Bowl)

Packers: None.

Browns: None.

RED (above-average starter):

Packers: Mike Daniels, Nick Perry (minus), Clay Matthews (minus).

Browns: Joe Thomas.

GOLD (average starter)

Packers: David Bakhtiari (plus), Bryan Bulaga, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Morgan Burnett, Mason Crosby.

Browns: Joel Bitonio, Kevin Zeitler, Christian Kirksey, Jason McCourty.

Look at the blues. Those are the guys who change games. None for either team without Rodgers.

The Packers have three reds to the Browns’ one, and eight golds to the Browns’ five.

So the Packers again come out ahead. But it doesn’t come close to accounting for the difference between these two teams.

Some undoubtedly will see this as an indictment of Ted Thompson, the Packers’ general manager. His roster, with the exception of the quarterback, isn’t that much better than the league’s worst team’s.

And there’s truth there.

Thompson’s first five drafts were outstanding (Rodgers, Nick Collins, Greg Jennings, Matthews, Nelson, Jermichael Finley, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang). He signed a franchise-changing free agent (Charles Woodson) early in his tenure as well.

Since then? Painfully few big hits in the draft, especially on the defensive side of the ball. And he was much too slow to see that there’s such a thing as strategic free-agent signings. He deserves to be dinged for both.

But there’s a larger truth here as well. Namely, that not all that much separates most NFL teams, except for the quarterbacks.

Think about it. You swap quarterbacks between most teams in this league, and the franchises’ fortunes swap with them.

Put Aaron Rodgers on the Bengals and Andy Dalton on the Packers, and the Packers become the Bengals, and the Bengals become the Packers. Same with Rodgers and Philip Rivers, or Joe Flacco, or Eli Manning, Jacoby Brissett or Carson Palmer. You can go on.

Of course there are exceptions. Most years one or two defenses are a cut above. Seattle has been there for several seasons, though now the Seahawks are starting to decline. Same for Denver. The Jaguars are knocking on that door.

And Kansas City might have the best overall roster in the league. If you put Rodgers or Tom Brady on the Chiefs or Seahawks or Broncos or Jaguars, you’d have not just a contender but the Super Bowl favorite.

But those are the exceptions, and maintaining that caliber of a defense for more than a couple years is almost impossible. The draft, salary cap and free agency see to that.

Then look at what Carson Wentz has done for Philadelphia in only his second NFL season. The Eagles suddenly are as good as anybody, and it’s because of him. To think the Browns passed on drafting that guy. Wow.

So sure, there are differences between some NFL rosters. Coaching matters, too. But a lot more often than not, one player separates teams in this league.

At the end of our conversation, I asked the scout how many games the Browns would win with Rodgers at the helm. His answer? At least 10.

“It’s all about the quarterback,” he said. “You better get one or you ain’t going anywhere. The Packers have been spoiled for 20-some years.”

Roster rankings: Packers vs. Browns

Here is a synopsis of a high-ranking NFL executive’s position-by-position comparison between the Green Bay Packers and Cleveland Browns. The conversation was just a few days after Aaron Rodgers’ broken collarbone but before Browns tackle Joe Thomas’ season-ending torn triceps. The categories are: big edge, medium edge, small edge or push.

RUNNING BACKS

Packers: Aaron Jones, Ty Montgomery, Jamaal Williams.

Browns: Isiah Crowell, Duke Johnson, Matt Dayes.

Scout’s call: Big edge Browns.

The interview was done before Jones’ 131-yard game against New Orleans, which might have shrunk the gap.

“Johnson (32 receptions, 9.8-yard average) is a great third-down back,” the scout said. “I like Aaron Jones. He’s got vision, he’s got really good eyes. … I think (Montgomery) is a fraud. He’s not a real running back, he’s a bigger receiver. He can’t withstand 16 weeks (at running back).”

RECEIVERS

Packers: Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb, Geronimo Allison.

Browns: Ricardo Louis, Rashad Higgins, Kenny Britt, Kasen Williams.

Scout’s call: Big edge Packers.

“Not even close,” he said. “(The Packers’) top three are better than anybody on the Browns.”

TIGHT ENDS

Packers: Martellus Bennett, Lance Kendricks, Richard Rodgers.

Browns: Seth DeValve, David Njoku, Randall Telfer.

Scout’s call: Small edge Browns.

The scout chose Bennett as the best of the group.

“The Packers have more experience, the Browns have more athleticism,” he said. “All three Browns are athletic, and in today’s football you need athletic tight ends. The rookie (Njoku) is the Browns’ best one. He’s talented.”

OFFENSIVE LINE

Packers: David Bakhtiari, Lane Taylor, Corey Linsley, Jahri Evans, Bryan Bulaga.

Browns: Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio, JC Tretter, Kevin Zeitler, Shon Coleman.

Scout’s call: Small edge Packers.

This is based on both lines being healthy. “Very close,” the scout said. “The Packers get it because Bulaga is a lot better than (Coleman).”

DEFENSIVE LINE

Packers (Includes outside linebackers): Clay Matthews, Mike Daniels, Kenny Clark, Nick Perry.

Browns: Myles Garrett, Trevon Coley, Danny Shelton, Emmanuel Ogbah.

Scout’s call: Medium edge Packers.

“Mike Daniels is a disruptor, I like what he brings,” the scout said. “Myles Garrett has a future ahead of him, he’s got everything you want – size, length, athleticism. But he’s a rookie, you can’t just give it to him. Shelton is a pure run-stopping nose tackle.”

LINEBACKERS

Packers: Blake Martinez, Jake Ryan, Joe Thomas.

Browns: Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert, Jamie Collins.

Scout’s call: Medium edge Browns.

“Athletically, the Packers don’t have anybody like (Kirksey),” the scout said. “Martinez and Schobert are a push. I like Jamie Collins.”

CORNERBACKS

Packers: Davon House, Kevin King, Damarious Randall, Josh Hawkins.

Browns: Jason McCourty, Jamar Taylor, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Michael Jordan.

Scout’s call: A push.

“On the starters I have to go Browns,” the scout said. “On the four of them it’s a push because (the Packers’) third and fourth are way better than the Browns’ third or fourth.”

SAFETIES

Packers: Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Morgan Burnett, Kentrell Brice, Josh Jones.

Browns: Jabrill Peppers, Derrick Kindred, Ibraheim Campbell.

Scout’s call: Big edge Packers.

“Peppers isn’t a safety,” the scout said. “Packers by a lot.”

SPECIALISTS

Packers: Mason Crosby (K), Justin Vogel (P), Taybor Pepper (LS), Trevor Davis (R).

Browns: Zane Gonzalez (K), Britton Colquitt (P), Charley Hughlett (LS), Jabrill Peppers (R).

Scout’s call: Push.

“I’d take Crosby, Colquitt and Peppers,” the scout said.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/...edceb11b6069ada

Hue publicly stated he wanted Hooker where we were. Even Joe Banner knows that! ....


https://twitter.com/JoeBanner13/status/924964111905099777

Now your starting to make Donald Trump look like Honest Abe Lincoln

Hue's very own words on draft night "He headed back to the war room right afterward, but did tell Silver that while they do need a QB, “they’re going to let the QB come to them.”

SO what did WE do They let Kizer come to them.

Hue knows and is involved in what is going on, and it's not time to give props to anybody, nor to rip on anybody. We are working as a TEAM, and the TEAM needs to stay together for at least 24 more games before we even DISCUSS getting rid of any of them.


Next up on Ripley's believe it or not. Another front office post from Mac

I think Hue also said he texted Watson, but not what Watson claimed. It's all about what agenda you want to push....and I know yours.

Hue Jackson says he still feels support from Browns owners at 1-23

Posted by Darin Gantt on October 30, 2017, 7:03 AM EDT
link

The Browns haven’t won this year, and only won once last year. And plenty of teams have used the break after a game in London to make changes in such situations.

But even if it wasn’t said specifically after their latest loss (to the Vikings, which dropped him to 1-23 there), Browns coach Hue Jackson said he felt like he had the support of owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam.

“I don’t think it was articulated here, but I still feel that,” Jackson said, via Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. “I don’t sense — you guys would have to ask Jimmy that, but I totally have the support of Mr. and Mrs. Haslam. I don’t feel any change in that. I know everybody is concerned about the losing, my job, this — I mean, there’s all kinds of questions out there. I get all that.

“That’s never been what my thought process is (his job),” he said. “Mine is trying to get this team to be the best it can be, keep this coaching staff working hard, keep these players working hard, and that’s my charge. It can’t be anything else. But no, I totally feel like I still have their support.”

Of course, Haslam has made proclamations before that didn’t pan out, such as his preseason 2015 pledge not to flush General Manager Ray Farmer and coach Mike Pettine, and you’ll notice Jackson’s in his second season.

The Haslams were in attendance in London Sunday, but they were nearly the only ones.

Franchise fixture Joe Thomas missed his first game after triceps surgery, and top pick Myles Garrett was back home with a concussion. Coupled with the general lack of talent on the roster and a rookie quarterback they’ve already yanked at put back in, it was a hard spot to expect anyone to win in.

“Everything has got to be perfect,” Jackson said. “That’s where we are. Everything has got to be perfect for us to have a chance to win a football game. We get it, and our coaching staff gets it and our players get it, and we work that way. We try to do the best we can to get everything right, but we all know that’s not how football is played.

“You can’t be perfect, it’s still a game. You’re going to make mistakes and things are going to come up. Today we didn’t make as many, so we were in the game for quite a while. Then all of a sudden we don’t make some other plays I think we can make, and then the game flipped. That’s kind of been the story of where we are.”

So far, there’s no sign the Haslams are prepared to make (yet another) change. But it’s early yet, and 1-23 is still 1-23.

I believe you underestimate Hue's involvement in selecting, signing, and ultimately passing up on, quarterbacks.

I am not sure how so many posters know who is making which picks? Some say it's Hue and some say that Hue has no say. And both sides say it w/conviction. LOL

I get that so much losing leads to assigning blame, but firing people will only lead to more heartache. We can't continue overhauling the roster. It doesn't work.

It's best if all parties work together and stick w/the plan while making adjustments, just as all smart companies, organizations, schools, businesses, etc do.

No, of course not. I do, however, believe that the FO leans heavily on Hue's opinion when it comes to the QB. That has been stated ad nauseum by Sashi since the day Hue was hired. It was proven when we signed RG3.

And if there are situations where Hue doesn't want or like a QB, then the FO's desire to acquire more draft picks comes into play. If there was a QB that Hue wanted early, he would have been picked, IMO. And yes, Wentz would be an example of that. Watson too.

I don't believe any FO in the NFL makes picks without having conversations with the coaching staff, Which is why I truly believe the following, Garrett was a surely a GW pick but was undisputed #1 so that's a wash, Peppers I think was a GW/Tabor pick and Kizer was Hue. I think the FO and Hue both deserve blame for this trash. Talent or not, a good HC doesn't yoyo his QB's, doesn't call time outs in the redzone at the end of a half, doesn't decline 15 yard penalties on a 3rd and 1 in FG range. I mean there is plenty of blame to go around. The question is, when is enough enough to know it isn't going to work the way its built. Fans have already begun tuning out, stadium isn't even half full, so you have to do something. The two easiest things to do to show fans you aren't accepting this product is remove Sashi from football decisions and either promote Berry or find a true GM with football background and make Hue take on an OC. Even a guy like Al Saunders, who's already on staff, familiar with Hues offense from being his OC in oakland and working with him here. Point is there is someone out there Hue would trust to call plays. Very few HC call their own plays successfully.

So with those two concessions, you buy more time. If it still doesn't work, it just wasn't meant to be. But you can't lose 23 games and counting in 2 years and not make any change. It doesn't take this long to rebuild in the nfl, only us it appears

Hats off to them for the number of draft picks we got and that we have. But that is not an end unto itself. You need to make wins out of the choices or it is pointless (a lot like our offense).

Sashi & Company as they have performed seem to be true to the saying, "They know the price of everything but the value of nothing." They get price tags, pass judgment, but they seem clueless about talent that impacts winning and team chemistry. We need football sherpa in the room to carry the load as far as finalizing best picks. Some may need to be "veteran lite" players.

I am not for firing anyone, but i really don't want this group allowed to have final QB pick again. Despite all of Hue's assurances over two years, I do not believe Kizer or Kessler are our answer.

It's to the point where if we trade down again with our top round picks, we're morons. We need all the help we can get. We need a miracle. We've already excelled other teams roster by passing up on the players we got those picks for. It's also to the point where if they fubar up the picks we did acquire and bring in more below average/okay players, they're morons. It's not a good situation for the front office to be in and the support is dismal at best. The faith is dismal at best. Everything regarding the Browns is almost dismal at best.

I've seen my friends, fans and etc down before because we've been bad... but end of last year and this one... it's becoming unprecedented with the losing support. I myself definitely included.

Nice post.

I just don't get the fire the FO mantra some have. I don't think you can place all the blame on them. If we were 2-6 at this point would people be pointing fingers? I mean we'd already be better than last year. And I simply don't know how anyone can argue that the FO is the only reason why we are 0-8.

I think there are probably 8-9 HC that call plays and probably 3-4 HC who don't even have an OC. We are one, 49ers are another. I think maybe the Texans or Cardinals? I don't think we need someone to call plays, and maybe Al Saunders is the de facto OC, but someone else to help on offense might be helpful.

I think this regime should have to the end of the season to show progress, if they can't I think it's insane to continue on this path.

Show progress, 2 seasons should be enough..

I would pay Urban Meyer or Nick Saban a king's ransom to take over the Browns.

Who are the people that are saying the FO should be fired?

Who in their right mind would let this regime do another draft? Who in their right mind thinks Hue is a good coach. Unbelievable!!!

Well, I guess there's one of those people I was asking about. LOL

LOL

To be honest, the way they've approached it seems like Haslam said, you're getting 5 years regardless, so they are squirreling away picks waiting on a blue chip to slap them in the face. My thoughts are simply this, yes, they may be great numbers guys and sure, let analytics be a variable. But in the end you need to draft impact players at the slot you're in instead of consistently trading down for lesser talent because analytics says its a more valuable pick/player.

This is why I said just remove those guys from the football side, let them run the cap and provide their analytic data and let a football guy make the decisions. We've blown too many picks playing the analytic game to keep relying on it as a successful model, doesn't work like it does in MLB where the speed of the game is slower and the success/fail of a player happens in a vacuum because its all about individual effort at that point.

You say blown picks, please explain...

We may have missed on better players, but I would not consider the guys we have drafted as blown picks. We have acquired some really good talent on the defense side of the ball, the area where the FO has focused.

Not a single round 1 pick has panned out... Colemon is average at best, Peppers in proving to be bad, Njoku still to be proved. MG appears to be very fragile..

So far. we have one of the worst draft classes in the league... and with us being the Browns, things will get even worst...

We have been there.... The Mangini Class, The Kokinis Guys, The Farmer bunch....

blown picks, Coleman,Kessler, Louis, Payton, Higgin, Caldwell, Wright. Thats from 16. Ogbah was good, Shon is meh, Schobert is JAG for the most part, Kindred is amazingly average, Nassib is average

for 2017. Garrett is good, though stevie wonder can pick that one, and he has trouble staying on the field, Peppers was a huge reach and so far is one of the weakest links on both ST and Defense, Njoku, looks the part but plays Quincy morgan football, Kizer...lmao... and out of the rest of them, Ogunjobi is pretty decent pick, but guys like Wilson, Johnson, Gonzales, don't look that good, can't tell about dayes, he's buried on the bench for some reason despite our lack of a run game all year.

so yeah, if you look at the draft as a whole, you can see heavy analytics at play, or just bad evaluation.

Coleman has talent, he has just been injury prone. You can see he was coming around into his own just in that first game.

Louis can ball, he is just inconsistent.
Higgins has game as well, and is inconsistent.

You talk about shobert, nassib, etc as being average. Well at the positions they were selected at, an average NFL player is a good pick. They all cant be pro bowlers like in madden 17.

Peppers is not being utilized correctly, IMO. But you can see the athletism and a little grooming will yield a lot. I think its too early to call ANY of the picks in this draft a bust or a wasted pick IMO. Heck, probably too soon for last years draft on some as well. - WR typically don't make a jump in their game until their 3 rd year.

Gonzales has played very poorly, but EVERYONE had him rated high as a K. Cant really blame them for taking him.

Our def has gone from the worst in the league two years ago to a very good one today. So I highly disagree with you saying we are drafting "blown picks"

Coleman has very little talent. undersized and poor hands...not a good combo for a first round pick supposed to be your #1 Peppers isn't being utilized correctly because he doesn't have an NFL position. You don't take those kind of players in the first round. Higgins and Louis neither have game...consistency IS the game at being an NFL receiver. Therefor, they are not. Factor in much better players taken after the picks yes, The FO has done a poor job evaluating talent.

To the Point about Hue, I've said before, if anyone deserves more time in this, it would be coaching as they are all proven NFL guys with years on their resume's. So yeah I think if you give the FO 5 years, you have to give the staff 5 years as well. But I think with the FO, you can't leave them to their own devices, theres not a single experienced C-level executive in the whole FO including the owner. There isn't anyone experienced enough to say no I don't agree with this or yes I agree with that. We need that guy

How do you know that Hue didn't want those guys?

Hue says he didn't text Watson.

This is beginning to dive back to the sos.