DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Round 3 ..

Did you watch the Browns game on Sunday? Hue Jackson could not have dumbed down the offense any more for Kizer than he did against the Vikings.

He certainly started off the year with a "big boy offense" and looked completely lost and overwhelmed, thus, Hue had him throw a bunch of passes at or near the LOS this past game.

He's got half field reads off of designed rollouts. It is most certainly dumbed down. I will agree with the handcuffs thing as I happen to know his HS coach and he is a kid that can mentally be trusted to take on more according to that coach.

I did happen to watch the Ravens game and he had to throw away as many passes as he completed because the half of the field that he was looking at didn't have anyone open.

Based off of what I've seen from both QB's so far, I would say that Kizer is farther ahead. That may be more because of coaching in Chicago holding him back and it might also have to do with their o-line not giving him time, but it is what it is.

Again, I hope the hometown kid does well and I think he eventually will if given enough time and tools in the shed.



Nope, it is the only Brown's game that I didn't see this season. I plan on watching it during the week though. Short passes do not necessarily mean the offense was dumbed down. If I was planning the game and I knew that Spencer Drango was going to be the only guy between Griffen and our QB, I'd be planning quick short passes as well. Two weeks ago, I did finally see that read progression from Kizer that had been pretty absent until then however.

Speaking of that game, how Drango managed to keep Griffen to one sack amazes me and it will be one thing that I look at when I watch the game. I like Drango, but he doesn't have the feet or the agility to be a LT. It's a stretch to put him at RT. He is more of a guard.

There have been 3 QB's we took where I immediately said "zero chance" of success.

In order of "absolutely will fail":

1) Johnny Manziel
2) Brady Quinn
3) DeShone Kizer

You can drop an LB into a vanilla spy, and Kizer will absolutely throw right there.

I agree, but the question is whether he did it on purpose, or by accident because he overthrew someone.

We don't need a QB in the upcoming draft, he's already on the roster and it's Kizer! Big arm,mobility,and a big man. To this point has he performed to expectations, absolutely not but there is a big learning curve, just ask Jared Goff and Carson Wentz who both struggled in their rookie year, but in there 2nd year,both have flourished with playmakers on offense that Kizer could only dream about. Give the kid a chance, hope he proves all the naysayers wrong!JMO, I believe, do you?

Did you and Diam go to the same school?

LOL...........just kidding.

I hope you are right.

At least Diam doesn't blindly get behind the guy. I know you're not saying he does.

I think Kizer needs more time. I don't think it's fair to give up on players so soon. I also don't care if he gets that opportunity here or not. If the Browns are in the 1 or 2 slot, you need to draft a QB and start them. The Kizer experiment has been a disaster. I think some of that is on Hue. I really think he's an awful coach. But Kizer hasn't seized the opportunities when they've presented themselves.

He has 8 games to give us something to believe in besides a guarantee redzone turnover.

It was a grammar joke.

That went over my head. Thought it was a Notre Dame reference.

No I don't believe, at least so far. He's came as advertised/playing the same way he did in college. Hopefully he'll get better the rest of the season. We shall see.

Personally? I wouldn't ever draft a QB who has accuracy issues. It's kinda like getting together with a woman who has a history of cheating on all her boyfriends and hoping she'll be faithful with you. Sure there's a possibility, but not a probability.

BTW we have a Kizer thread but it's not on this page at the moment so it's easy to miss:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1344168/1

Just give the kid some time, as you know 8 games is not enough to bury him!

respectfully disagree with your entire post

I like Kizer and still think he can develop. He should have never been thrown into the fray as early as he was. If he puts the effort in, he'll learn far more in the offseason than he will being the number one and working on the game plan every week.

That being said, you keep getting QB's until you are certain that you have a QB and after that you keep getting backup QB's until you are certain that you have a backup QB and after that you start looking for QB's that are the heir apparent.

I don't think Flattop has it, but I hope I am wrong. Even if he shows some spark down the stretch, not drafting a QB would be moronic. I might even pull a Redskins when they drafted both RGIII and Cousins in the same draft.

We have to find a answer for that position.

I know I have said this several times over the years, so I apologize for repeating myself like some dotty old uncle telling and re-telling war stories, BUT, would it not be a good thing for Deshon to spend an hour or two per week watching game film with a certain former Browns' QB known for his ability to read and break down a defense almost immediately? (His name rhymes with Ernie Schmosar.) Yeah, yeah, I know he's been on the outs with the Haslam regime, but I'm confident he could help Kizer with a lot of what he is facing (both on and off the field) while trying to be a starting QB in the NFL at the age of 21. Because he did it.

Pretty sure we should give Kizer a lot more time to develop. He is very young and got thrown to the wolves. I would like to see him use this season as a learning experience, then work on it in the offseason. And see what he has next year. If he is still horrible next year then forget it.

I hear you, but Bernie seems to be on the outs with every regime. Why is that? Maybe there is a reason.

Just saying. I don't claim to know the reason, but it seems to be there..

Dave, leaving out the accuracy issues, I think Kizer's problem is his post-snap read more than his pre-snap reads.

You can teach the pre-snap reads, but post-snap reads are innate.

I agree that there is something that keeps the Browns from embracing Kosar as an asset to the organization. Maybe Bernie isn't quite so humble as his public personna would indicate. Most big time athletes have a pretty healthy ego and I doubt Kosar is any different. I have heard that he can even be abrasive and brutally honest, so its possible that any given Browns' over the last 18 years was too insecure to risk allowing him to come on the scene and possibly eclipse them in the public's eye.

You can teach post snap reads, but some guys just can't learn em. There is a rhythm to it. You have to find that internal clock. I have never had specific experience with them, but I would bet that the VR headsets that QB's are using now would go a long way to helping teach this.

You can track a QB's head movement and give him audio cues when he should be looking to his next read. You can also record all of that and put it all up on the big screen for a coach to explain to him what he is doing wrong.

I don't believe - no.

I am not giving up on him - he's young and shown some ability in the worst of situations. I feel sorry that he hasn't been given a better opportunity to succeed.

But that said - he's not given me a whole lot of reason for me to think he's the savior either. If I had the opportunity to sign Cousins or Alex Smith in FA .... I wouldn't think twice about it. . . . I don't know enough about the potential draft choices at the top of the first round to say for sure - but if we don't land a quality FA and Kizer continues on his current path - I suspect I would take the #1 QB in the draft if we have that choice

If that is the case then we should have him watching film with prospects before we draft them, and assessing their abilities with regards to post snap reads. Using a stop-action remote and asking "what's happening here?". I don't know, maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but I think he can help this team solve this ongoing QB mystery, whether in pre-draft assessment or in post-draft mentoring. The only question is will they let him?

There's an interesting article in a recent Sports Illustrated about Goff's growth, and the new HC there. Good read.

It would be amazing, just outright amazing, to have that faith in Kizer. Corey will be coming back, a lean Josh Gordon will be back and this should do mega things for the offense, including for Kizer.

It would be great to see an offense executing, scoring points, being able to run in the 4th quarter without being behind a million points and most importantly... Kizer looking comfortable, accurate and decisive.

Bernie has been embraced lately by the Browns and the Haslams. He's slowly getting his foot back in the door within the organization. Bernie and Dustin Fox do a weekly film breakdown session that is posted to the team website.

You're comparing a late second round pick to the #1 and # 2 overall respectively.

The Browns do not have a lot invested in Kizer and will take a QB high next year unless they manage to sign someone like Cousins.

A new regime or the current regime will not hitch their wagon to Kizer, fair or not.

Hell, the team just tried to replace him with McCarron.

All the Qb's throw Int.s they should let Kizer play.

After 8 weeks and a bye week, it's time to start keeping stats on what Kizer does from here forward.

Everything so far, statwise, can be chucked in the garbage can as a rookie learning process.

But with 8 games in, it's time to see what Kizer can do, play smart football.

Maybe this team can win 1 game pretty soon.

All the pieces are in place, already.

j/c

Until you know you have a franchise QB, you need a franchise QB. Ending up with two of them is never a problem and only a blessing. Right now we have no idea if we have a franchise QB, so you need to draft a QB.

I got it.

Clever is as clever does.

That "read" looks like stare down your first receiver and fidget until the shortest route and nearest receiver gets around to showing up. Seems to "look over" half the field at best.
He is not allowed to throw up the middle where many good teams pile up lots of completions and rack up the YAC.

I gave up on him when he put up too many picks and I saw him play. Just isn't NFL ready yet. If I need to keep piling up losses and winless seasons for his learning curve, spare me!
Compete. And if he is new and so improved, why are we trading for new blood? We are stuck with him. He has saddled us with his inability and it won't improve soon. Hue needs to change his approach IMO. Milk the cow you own, but it may not be worth the time.

Kizer should've been a 4th or 5th round project IMO but as usual the ineptness of the FO made this kid feel like he was an NFL caliber QB and IMO he just another sad victim of the FO.

Kizer takes far too much heat for his "inaccuracy" because he's being micro-analysed on every single play.

Watson - 126/204 - 61%
Kizer - 111/213 - 52%
Beathard - 82/161 - 50%
Trubisky - 38/80 - 47%


Worth note, these are small margins. Kizer is 19 complete passes behind Watson. That's 2.3 incomplete passes per game. Our horrible receivers make that difference alone, without even mentioning that Watson has two of the best in the NFL.

Yet, what I find most bizarre, is that Kizer is the project. He's two years younger than Trubisky. He was significantly cheaper in the draft because it was known he needed work. With such a small difference between the rookies, I can't help but wonder why Kizer takes the most heat. Especially when Trubisky, and Watson to a lesser extent, both have their offensive game plans loaded with gimmicks designed to make their job easy. Kizer is just outright playing big-boy quarterback. The closest he gets to a gimmick offense is the occasional quick pass.

It isn't like this is unique to Kizer. Goff completed only 54% of his passes last year playing in a similar situation to Kizer.

One might argue that we're not really discussing that. We're talking about inaccuracy when it occurs individually rather than collectively, and Kizer having too many examples of outright inaccuracy. The interception intended for Hollywood a few weeks back comes to mind. However, I would mention that Kizer has undoubtedly thrown some dimes. Short, deep and intermediate. He had a pass against the Vikings that Devalve dropped that was otherworldly inaccurate.

That is to say I think he is inconsistent, but not inaccurate. A label that can be applied to most young players - especially one drafted in the 2nd round at 21 years old who was a development quarterback needing to develop his fundamentals.

Regarding no quarterback ever being as inaccurate as Kizer, Alex Smith completed only 50% of his passes for 1 touchdown to 11 interceptions and 9 fumbles. He did not score in his first 8 games and averaged 111 yards per game.

Eli Manning completed only 48% of his passes which was still better than Matt Schaub at 47%. Eli's brother completed only 56%. The guy who replaced Peyton in Indy completed only 54% of his passes which is better than Matt Stafford at 53%. Thank God Aaron Rodgers only played one game because he was at 56%.

But the overall winner without going back too far is Mike Vick at a pitiful 44% complete.

Derek Carr, Jameis Winston and Andy Dalton were all at 58% - around the same mark as a hell of a lot of quarterbacks who were not necessarily franchise quarterbacks but who had long careers with plenty of games under their belt.

I don't understand the fascination with trying to pretend Deshone Kizer is doing something we've never seen. The most inaccurate quarterback of all time. Rookies are usually inaccurate, and Kizer is no exception to a long list of incredible players who struggled every bit as much as Kizer is.

There’s them stats again ....

STATS ARE FOR .......

Do u actually watch our games? ...

PS. The reason he fell from a top 5 possibly a top 3 pick in last years draft ...

Was due to HIS INNACURRACY ...

He had the same problem in COLLEGE ...

Some of it prolly has something to do with the pro game ... BUT it is also who he was BEFORE HE GOT HERE ...

Go find some stats to refute that ...

His accuracy has been a consistent problem. We saw it in college and that is what soured me on him before the draft. We see it weekly where he just airmail throws or puts a worm-burner out there.

We had a good conversation after the draft about Kizer's mechanics. You, ed, me and some others were trying to break it down.

I came away thinking that Kizer's accuracy could be fixed. I do not think starting him right away was the best way to fix his mechanics. People resort to old habits under pressure and playing qb in the NFL is about as high-pressured as it gets.

Right now, my biggest concern is his post-snap reads and how long it takes him to go through his progressions. That is one thing that was an unknown in college, as it is w/most qbs due to the offenses they run.

Bro, I am not seeing him making good reads and quickly going through his progressions. I know a lot of people don't like hearing this, but that part of the game does not usually improve much.

I am not saying he can't do it. It might be that he is just so overwhelmed by the speed of the game that his brain is freezing. But, I do think it is a big concern going forward.

You probably remember that I had the same concerns about Weeden, BQ, and Timid during their rookie years.

Vers, what have you seen in his mechanics that makes you believe his accuracy can be improved? I almost feel like his accuracy has suffered because of your second point - not going through his reads and progressions quickly enough. Looking rushed mentally, throwing balls much harder than he needs to because he feels like he's "late".

Also, do you really feel like we won't see much improvement with the latter? I know football is a different animal than life itself, but usually experience alone will help you improve in your decision making. I know you are just speaking in generalities, but don't we have to wait a bit longer for the game to "slow down" before we make a judgement here?

I just hope he finishes the season and we can make an accurate assessment...

One thing we noticed when looking at his videos in college was that he really opened up w/his lead foot on some throws, especially those to his left. The opening of the hips often changes arm angles and you are not facing your target. His back foot really kicked up high. That isn't as big of a deal, but it was something we noticed.

I think he can be taught to stride straighter and not open up so much. He did make improvements, but is getting into some bad habits again. I think he has really reduced the leg kick, so that is good.

I think experience and film study really helps w/your pre-snap reads. You can recognize the defense, the coverage look they are giving you. You know their tendencies on what they like to do on things like down and distance, yard line, time of the game, score, etc.

However, teams often disguise their coverages and change things post-snap. A lot of guys can't process those changes quickly enough during live action. It's a completely different animal.

We have all heard of anticipation. Yes, a lot of it is anticipating where your receiver will be, but you also have to anticipate where the coverage is coming from and the closing speed of the guys in the vicinity. Guys like me would never be able to do it. It's a unique skill and unfortunately, we don't know if a lot of these college qbs can do it because they aren't asked to. One of major reasons why I liked Luck and Teddy so much was because I saw them both make the post-snap reads in college.

And again, I am not saying Kize won't improve. I don't know yet. But, the early returns are not encouraging.