DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum AJ McCarron Fiasco Part 2

Browns' and Bengals' AJ McCarron trade documents didn't match and more buzz from the botched trade: Mary Kay Cabot

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In the aftermath of the Browns' botched trade for Bengals quarterback AJ McCarron, cleveland.com talked to more than a half a dozen league sources with inside knowledge of how it all went down.

Here's some new buzz and some new details on the Battle of Ohio, in which the Browns ultimately waited to late to tell the Bengals they wanted to pull off the deal.

1. The Documents didn't match.

After hearing from the Browns at 3:54 p.m. Tuesday that they wanted to make the trade, the Bengals emailed their paperwork to the NFL at 3:55 p.m., just before the 4 p.m. deadline. The Browns, however, didn't send theirs to the NFL. Instead, they sent it to the Bengals at 3:54 p.m. to also sign and send to the league.

The Bengals didn't see the email because it came from Sashi Brown's assistant, Chris Cooper, and was sent to Bengals Player Personnel Director Duke Tobin, who was busy sending his materials to the NFL. He didn't see the email until the following day.

But even if the Browns had copied the NFL on the document they sent to the Bengals, the trade wouldn't have been approved -- because the documents didn't match.

The language in the Browns' document was different than that of the Bengals.

If the league had received differing documents at 3:55 p.m., there probably wouldn't have been enough time to resolve the matter by 3:59:59.

Even if the terms of the trade were identical -- a second- and third-round pick in 2018 for McCarron, the other language, such as the conditions,was not.

A condition can be something such as "pending McCarron passing his physical....''

The rules are spelled out on Page 54 - Paragraph 8 of the NFL's 2017 Player Personnel Handbook, which states:

"Upon agreeing to a trade, clubs shall exchange written messages of the terms and conditions, after which both clubs are required to notify the Commissioner in writing of such terms and conditions. For any trade to be accepted prior to the deadline of 4:00 p.m., New York time, on each business day, written submissions, including all conditions, must be received by the League office from the involved clubs via the NFL Waivers account, or by FAX, prior to 4:00 p.m., New York time.

"Note: During the Draft, trades will be accepted by telephone communication to the Player Personnel department, provided that written confirmation is transmitted promptly thereafter.''

When the Browns received a copy of the Bengals' document at 3:59 p.m., they realized it was different and called the league to appeal. But it was too late. They had run out of time and the trade fell through.

2. Mike Brown was the driving force behind the trade in Cincy

Brown, the Owner, President and GM of the Bengals, was willing to send McCarron to his AFC North foe for two reasons: one, because of his great relationship with Hue Jackson, and two, because he likes McCarron and wanted to give him a chance to play.

Others in the Bengals' organization, including Tobin, were less enthusiastic about making the deal because they view McCarron as a valuable member of the organization.

"But no one in the Bengals' organization was standing in the way of getting it done,'' one league source said.

Related: Browns had a deal for AJ McCarron, but didn't get their paperwork to the NFL in time

It would have been the first-ever trade between the two clubs, but Brown was willing to do it as long as the compensation was right.

After the 2015 season, Brown tried to persuade Jackson to stay in Cincinnati, where he would've been the heir apparent to his good buddy Marvin Lewis. Instead, he took the Browns' job and is now 1-23 in his second season.

But Brown and Jackson have a good working relationship, and had already executed another trade, for Carson Palmer when Jackson was with the Raiders in 2011. The connection was a major reason it almost went down.

3. The deal was off

At about 3:15 p.m. on Tuesday, the deal was dead. The Browns thought that a second- and third-round pick for McCarron, who will either be a restricted or unrestricted free agent after the season depending on arbitration, was too much.

They argued that the 49ers gave the Patriots only a second-rounder for Jimmy Garoppolo, who's viewed as the better quarterback.

But Brown, knowing that the Bengals would take heat for the trade because it was with Cleveland, held firm to his asking price.

Besides, the Garoppolo deal for all intents purposes was for a second-round pick and backup quarterback Brian Hoyer, whom the 49ers agreed to release so the 49ers could sign him instead of making him part of the trade.

4. Then it was back on

At 3:54 p.m., the Browns called the Bengals and told them they'd accept the deal. Browns owner Jimmy Haslam had gotten involved by that point and signed off on the rich compensation, because he recognized that Jackson was trying to win with little talent on the team.

The Browns had also missed out on Garoppolo, whom Jackson coveted all offseason, and they had traded away from Carson Wentz and Deshaun Watson, who are tied for the NFL lead with 19 touchdown passes and were just named the NFC and AFC Offensive Players of the Month for October, respectively. On Thursday, Watson suffered a torn ACL in a non-contact situation in practice and is out for the season.

5. The Paperwork

The Browns believe they did the right thing when they sent their document to the Bengals, according to a source with knowledge of their process. They argue that's how they've done all their trades for players over the past two years: send their signed trade agreement to the other team, have them sign it and send it to the league.

In fact, the rule states that "Upon agreeing to a trade, clubs shall exchange written messages of the terms and conditions, after which both clubs are required to notify the Commissioner in writing of such terms and conditions.''

The Browns sent their 'written message of the terms of the conditions' to the Bengals, but the Bengals didn't see it because they had minutes to execute the trade and were filing their paperwork.

Here's where it went awry: the Browns called the Bengals too late to properly execute the deal, and it fell through. Had the Browns agreed to the trade earlier, even by 10 to 15 minutes, they could've worked out the kinks.

Instead, the Bengals had five minutes to get their paperwork in once they finally heard from the Browns.

One source said, "the Bengals would never have had time to read the Browns' document, sign it, and get it to the league. They did they right thing. They fired off their own paperwork to the NFL and got it in on time.''

The Browns and Bengals also apparently weren't on the same page on the terms and conditions of the trade. Or if they were, the two clubs didn't clearly articulate what they were including in their documents.

The signals got crossed between the two clubs in the heat of the moment, and the trade was botched.

Meanwhile, the Panthers dealt receiver Kelvin Benjamin to the Bills -- at 3:57 p.m. -- so it's possible to pull it off at the last minute.

The Browns also shouldn't have sent an email to Tobin from Cooper. It should've come straight from Brown. Regardless, the Bengals might not have seen it in time, because they were scrambling to send in their paperwork -- they way they've always done it, and in a matter that's perfectly acceptable to the NFL.

If the Bengals and Browns sent in separate documents to the NFL with identical terms and conditions, the trade would've gone through.

"I don't know that I've ever really heard of one (blowing up like this)," he said in his press conference Wednesday. "All you have to do is notify the league office you're making a deal. And that's an easy thing."

6. The Formal Trade Papers

Sources say the Browns were apparently trying to complete paperwork for the trade that doesn't need to be submitted until 15 days after the deal. That paperwork is signed by both clubs and sent to the league and to each team.

The Browns say both teams had to send in one document signed by both before Tuesday's trade deadline -- but multiple league sources say each team is required to send in their own written notification, with matching terms and conditions.

Still, if the NFL had received official written word from the Browns before 4 p.m., they may have been able to take a minute or two to correct the discrepancy in the language. Instead, they ran out of time.

The moment the Bengals received word from the Browns at 3:54 that they wanted to do the deal, they called the NFL office and told them the trade was on and to look for the Bengals' paperwork coming via email.

The Bengals assumed the Browns were following the same protocol.

7. Did the Browns' front office really want to do this deal?

The Browns had a chance to trade for McCarron ever since the trade window opened in March, but they never made an offer. The Bengals didn't really want to do the deal back then, but would've considered it back then for the same reasons they did Tuesday: because of Mike Brown's strong relationships with Jackson and McCarron.

"It's not ideal to trade guys within your division, particularly at that position, but we'll listen,'' Tobin said at the NFL Combine in February.

Tobin received an inquiry from the Browns that they were interested in McCarron, but he never received an offer. It's not known who approached him, but if it was Jackson, the front office might not have been on board.

Jackson had pushed hard all offseason for Garoppolo, and then for McCarron when it became apparent the Patriots either didn't want to part with Garoppolo at that time, or were asking too much.

But Sashi Brown made it clear throughout the spring that the Browns had no plans to trade for a veteran quarterback, and often threw water on reports they were interested. In the end, it was a sign of a growing rift between the coaching staff and the front office. The coaches wanted a veteran QB such as Garoppolo or McCarron, and the front office didn't.

"The Browns had months to trade for AJ if they really wanted him,'' a source said.

League sources speculate the Browns pushed it up the limit knowing they might not be able to pull it off.

Sources close to the Browns, however, insist that wasn't the case and that everyone -- including Brown and Jackson -- were working together feverishly to get it done. They just started the process too late.

8. Losing Garoppolo

It's unknown if the Browns called the Patriots before the trade deadline to try to acquire Garoppolo, whom they tried to trade for during the draft. The Browns have three second-round picks in 2018, and likely could've outbid the 49ers.

Some speculate that Bill Belichick didn't want his star backup playing in the AFC.

But as for a report by 104.7 FM Denver's Benjamin Allbright that Sashi Brown was home by 5 p.m. Monday when the Garoppolo news was coming down, a source that's false and that he was in the office way past 5. Instead, the assistant coaches were sent home early that night after returning home at about 1 a.m. from London.

The Patriots might have preferred doing a deal with the 49ers, because it enabled them to replace Garoppolo with Brian Hoyer, the former Browns quarterback who began his career in New England.

In the end, the 49ers ended up with their possible quarterback of the future, and the Browns might still be searching for theirs.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/11/browns_and_bengals_aj_mccarron.html

Can I jump off this train?

I feel a lot better knowing the deal was official off before the teams tired to resurrect it from the dead on the trade deadline. That would explain why the conditions, such as the trade being dependant on the physical, didn't match. That's not enough time for proper communication.

It sounds like Chris Cooper actually did the right thing. If the teams were still trying to get on the same page, of course he sent it to the Bengals. Are we really mad at a front office executive for actually wanting important language to be agreed upon prior to completion of a trade? I would argue that agreeing to a trade without complete agreement of terms and conditions would be a larger sign of dysfunction.

I find it disgusting that MKC is still referring to Cooper as a fu#&%ng "assistant." He is the Browns director of football administration. She has no problem calling Duke Tobin a Player Personnel Director, literally their equivalent to Cooper, but Cooper is just an assistant? She's such a spiteful hack who loves selling misery.

This is what happens when you try to negotiate a deal with six minutes. It wasn't going to happen, and I'm glad the Browns didn't get played by agreeing to complete a trade without actually establishing a comprehensive understanding of what that trade would entail - such as, I don't know, the possibility to void the trade if they player didn't pass a medical check!?

But, LolBrowns will LolBrowns.

She needs a proofreader

That's like the 6th version of the story that MKC has written.

LOL.............to vs too.

I think that is funny two

LOL

Hypthetically speaking, we can sign AJ to the exact same contract he would have signed had the trade gone through. Not that he is a hot commodity, but we could still sign him in the offseason, and keep our picks.

His comments regarding the trade seemed very positive. I think he actually wished the deal had gone through.

He's a Cleveland Brown next year assuming nobody gets fired, and the Bengals don't get a 2nd and 3rd round pick.

Frankly, I think that makes us the real winners.

Dawg, I even proofread my posts here, and we're a bunch of nobodies.
She gets PAID for this?

tsk, tsk, tsk...

So no one in the FO has done a press conference? And not the owner, as well?
To explain themselves, even?

Do none of them have the balls to face the public?

me2
(I speak Arabic-)

McCarron is a RFA next year, so it isn't that simple.

I heard that he will go to arbitration as he feels he should be an Unrestricted FA ... not that it clears things up right now.

I said this in another thread, but I really think that the Haslams know that Jimmy has been criticized in the past for blowing things up and that they will get crucified if they blow things up again.

Yet, what Sashi did is hard to defend and/or explain. I think they are all meeting and trying to concoct a story that sounds reasonable, but are finding it impossible to do so.

You can't continue w/an employee who is insubordinate.

You can't continue w/a toxic environment between the coaching staff and the FO.

Sashi needs to be fired!

And by the same reasoning Hue should be as well.

Hue was insubordinate?

How was Sashi insubordinate? He may have failed miserably, but that doesn't make him insubordinate.

Yes sharing information with reporters that should have been kept in house is insubordinate.

This is a story that I've missed, apparently.

I know I'm replying to Vers' post, but I'll take a helpful link from anyone.

WTF up with SBrown?

If hue did that, I agree.
If there is a massive disconnect between FO and the coach, and they can't play fair with each other, then they need to get their stuff together, or one or both need to go.
What a mess.

You are going to have to provide proof that Hue provided that information. Otherwise, you are telling lies. Because it appears that it was his daughter and one of his coaches that provided that information.

Sure, it's pretty easy to prove.

Your buddy reporter Mike Silva is reporting stuff about Berea at the same time that your o-line coach is emailing the same stuff to his buddy reporter in Denver and your daughter is tweeting the same stuff all over the internet.

I can give the answer to what 2 + 2 equals as well. Wanna see?

Do you mean like the proof that you had yesterday when you were saying Williams wrote those emails?

I've seen absolutely nothing to feel good about the one area that truly matters.

A third on Kessler, a second for Kizer, and attempted 2nd and 3rd for a low ceiling backup in McCarron; letting a young rook be backed up by Kessler and Hogan. It's all so Yakety Sax.

I see no chance we do it, but I'd sign Kaepernick. Guy's a leader, and he'd certainly spark the offense more than what we have now. At this point, I'm fine with the losing, but at least pretend like you're trying to put some semblance of entertainment/competitiveness on the field.

I agree there is no definite proof on Hue. What evidence is there on Sashi?

I was speculating. I never said it was factual.

Dude, you need a life.

I thought the connection to all three was enough

There is an alternative, though.

Hue's daughter could be dating Bob Wylie and Mike Silva just happened to show up at the same restaurant.

In other words, you told a lie.

No, I told you what happened and you want it to be a lie. Totally different.

Do you have an explanation how 3 different people connected to Hue suddenly started putting team business out on the internet at the same time?

Yes, those close to Hue are sick and tired of the ineptness of Sashi and that they know that Sashi was going to throw Hue under the bus for the team's poor record.

Proof, or it's a lie.

And they all knew to do it at the same time because?

Dude, you have the right to bash Hue all you want. Go ahead.

I disagree w/your takes. That is my right.

I think what Sashi did cannot be defended. You disagree. That is your right.

The difference is that you feel the need to personally attack me for not agreeing w/you. I am actually okay w/that. Football arguments get heated and it's cool to argue. But, the climate of this board echoes our new society and people cry about insults, if only they are the ones being insulted and then they insult the insulters. LOL

Whatever..........we disagree on things. You back a lawyer w/no personnel experience and I back a coach who is well respected w/other NFL people. But yeah, Dep..........I am the one who is full of crap.

Who's bashing Hue?

I actually like Hue but I'm not going to ignore his contribution to this mess because of it.

There is a reason that you can't answer my question even though you know the answer.

I used the same criteria that you did.

he was insubordinate and the coaches are not getting along with the front office.

Wrong. You have not proven that Hue sent those emails.

You also have not once criticized Sashi for the fiasco w/Jimmy G and AJ.

That is your opinion and that is fine, but please, don't pretend that you are being objective.

I am certainly not being subjective enough to ignore his contribution to this mess.

Still waiting on your alternative theory on how all 3 of the people connected to Hue knew to release info about the team at the same time?

I don't know the answer. Do you?

Can you answer how Sashi was not either incompetent or insubordinate in the proposed McCarron trade?

I also did criticise Sashi and in fact I said to fire Sashi.

Not for a lot of the total crap that you have made up. Missing the JG trade was enough for me and either accidently or purposely bumbling the AJ trade is enough as well.

I told you two days ago that the actions of both were enough for both of them to give their jobs away.

I unlike you though, don't excuse the actions of one of those guys because I like him better.