DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Jets and the Browns

Hi Everyone!

I want to do 2 things in this thread.

1. I want to take a break from ALL the Browns bashing (both the deserved and not)
2. I want to learn more about football (specifically, offense) by comparing the Browns to the Jets

Before we get into it, I have to make a plea. Please don't just respond with a "Browns/Kizer/Britt/Sashi/etc. suck" post. There are plenty of active threads out there where this is a perfectly appropriate response. Go there if that's all you have to contribute right now (not trying to be nasty or judgemental, as I've "contributed" plenty of these types of posts myself).


I was just watching highlights and game summaries of last night's game. I'm looking at the Jets execute their offense. By all accounts and measures, at the beginning of the season,the Jets were supposed to be HORRIBLE. Like, record-breakingly bad. Looking at the roster, tip-to-tail they were awful. So why were they able to give McCown ample time and space? Why is McCown all of a sudden able to hit receivers and tuck and slide into the endzone w/o killing himself (although, to be honest, he damn near hurt himself on that slide... it was ugly)? How come their runningbacks can run all over a pretty nasty Buffalo defensive front? How come a washed-up Forte can complain about carries, and then go out there and be unstoppable? How come a team like the Jets (who "everyone" said would be terrible at the beginning of the season) can do all these things while the Browns (who made, overall, very positive moves in the offseason), can't?

My questions sound whiny, and a rehash of the discussions we've been having, but that's not the intention. My intention is to learn about what the Jets are doing differently, and what they have that allows them to compete and win. The main impetus for me starting this thread is their o-line vs ours. How come they can run the ball and we can't?

I like the angle. This is all the more depressing considering we could (should?) have beaten the Jets.

They can convert possessions into points. They aren't the worst RZ offense in the NFL with the worst RZ turnover ratio.

I think if you try and look at it as if from a bigger picture - where are we worst worst? It's been offensively, especially passing, especially RZ. Then we get kicked in the nuts when we're down with the loss of JT. I mean, man, come on.

On defense, it's been passing, although not to the gravity of the former IMHO.

You are only as good as the weakest link on the chain. Their weakest links aren't as weak as ours even if some of our chain is better. I mean our run defense has been stellar.

Better QB play wins us a game maybe 2. A true free safety (I like Peppers by the way but he needs seasoning) and maybe an additional DB wins us maybe 1 or 2 more.

We are not that far away but it seems so far when you aren't there.

All IMHO obviously and it's just from my instincts watching the games. I may be way off base so feel free to shoot down

I know you said don't bash the browns, but its hard not too.

First, in todays NFL it starts and ends with the QB. McCown played pretty decent here, just made bad mistakes here and there, and couldn't stay healthy. JM has been in the league for it seems like 50 years, that tells you he can play.

Turnovers next. i don't have the stats, but i bet they are playing well has to do with a low turnover ratio.

Execution - play calling is overrated IMO. The offense always has an advantage as you know what the play is, and you know where you are going. The defense is always playing catch up. I am firm believer, you could send the opposing def the your entire gameplan, it doesn't matter. What matters is who is executing their jobs correctly. We just don't have that. Inexperience is part of that, and preparation is another, JMO.

Those three things, IMO will turn a bad team on paper into a good team on the field.

EXPERIENCE ... especially at the qb position ..

Its not really that hard ...

The jets O is not that good ... just cause they looked it last night against a Buffalo D that looked like they were not interested in playing doesn’t mean there good ...

If u watched the game you’d know there D put on one of the worst displays of tackling i’ve Seen in years ... IT WAS ATROCIOUS ... i would ventur to guess over the course of the game they missed more tackles than they made ..

Post of the Month, right there.

QB. Turnovers. Execution.

There is still the part where our Pass Defense is utterly atrocious, but this pretty much covers things.

Our QB should have never been the starter.
We are leading the league with 21 Giveaways and a -12 Differential.
Penalties and missed/blown plays happen at an alarming rate on both sides of the ball. It feels like 1 out of 3 plays is a significantly negative play for us.

Better QB play, better team discipline and ability to execute, and taking care of the ball and our record would likely look a little different right now.

at least last night, their DL caused pressure on its own. Something we rarely do

Take a look at the play palette, the selection of "game plays" and at McCown. Solid, good judgment, and his body still gets stuff done. He can't do it all. But he isn't at the NFL bottom, throwing incredibly bad picks, giving up sacks, and really locking on the shortest route/worst offensive choice. By avoiding the giveaways we have had every game, especially in the red zone, they play within themselves at a better place. Their D is not screwed by the O. They aren't doing great stuff; just avoiding doing the horrible stuff. they choose not to be penalized like us. I think Hue's overestimation of Kizer who is not ready is costing us so much. And neither has corrected much, but they give grand talking head interviews, run snazzy meetings, and assure us the sun will come out tomorrow. Jets just want to score the ball. We just want to think about it and talk about our feelings more.

The Jets do not have Britt.

Coaching

As previously said, it comes down to the QB, experience and the play calling that McCown is being asked to execute...

Great thread idea.

Personally, I think people overstated how bad the Jets were. In 2016, they were 5-11, but in 2015 they were 10-6. In 2016, the Jets had a pretty brutal schedule, some significant injuries and the customary collection of close games. I know people say the NFL is usually close even when the difference between talent is significant, these are some of the finest athletes in the world and they didn't make it to the NFL by luck, but I don't think it takes much to swing any games.

Ultimately, it is the same with the Browns. For all the frustration and treatment like we're totallyyyy loserrrrs, we're literally 12 points away from being a 4-4 team. We've lose four games (Steelers, Colts, Jets and Titans) by 3 points. Worth mention, the Steelers, Jets and Titans are pretty good teams. Meanwhile, against the Vikings and Ravens games were much more competitive than the scores suggested. Kizer's shocker ultimately cost us the Ravens game, he blew four or five scoring opportunities, and the Vikings pull away at the end after we fought hard.

One thing the Jets have, that we lack, is experience. They've got five young regular starters. All drafted in the first, second or third round except Shell (RT) who was drafted in the fifth. Two rookies, three second year players. Maye and Adams are rookies at S, Lee and Jenkins are second year players at LB, and Shell at RT. Outside of that, they're quite an experienced team loaded with savvy veterans who don't get a lot of love by are far from bad players - they know what they're doing and do it well.

Guys like McCown, Austin Seferain-Jenkins, Jermaine Kearse, Robby Anderson and the duo of Forte and Powell at RB are moving the offense at a pretty high level. Their defense has plenty of savvy players like Davis, Williams, Skrine, Claibourne, Wilkerson, McClendon and Bass - and their young players are also playing really well.

Most importantly, in my mind, they're entering year three in their system. It's around the time you really get a strong idea of what the team can be. Playing together becomes reactionary. Less thinking, more knowing. You establish routine and familiarity. Not every player has been around those full three years, but a large enough chunk have to help avoid inconsistency.

We're obviously lacking in that regard. Both seasons, we've made pretty sweeping changes to the personnel, getting progressively younger at key spots (TE, WR, QB, DB, DL) and we've already had one scheme change with Horton out and Williams in.

I don't think the Jets are a better team than the Browns. I think they're significantly more experienced and significantly more consistent. In no aspect are the Jets even a very good team, but in none are they a very good team.

We're the opposite. We move the ball quite well at times, but struggle to capitalize on scoring opportunities. We've squandered more red-zone opportunities than more teams in the league, and we turn the ball over on those opportunities more than any team in the league. Kizer has had his fair share of rookie struggles, and we've had plenty of struggles around him. It isn't a great situation for a rookie QB or for developing players around him.

Our defense plays excellent more often than not, but has been prone to allowing a high volume of points in spurts, admittedly fatigue is a catalyst in that regard. We're outstanding against the run (One of the best in the league) but average around the 20th spot in the league against the pass - still a nice jump from being the 32nd team last year.

Personally, I see that inexperience as the core problem we face. Evidently, everyone will be fired and we'll again have zero continuity, but with any luck we'll find a coach who wants to continue working with our core grouping of young players. They're slowly getting more experienced and looking like they belong. We just have to put it all together. I hope the next staff gets more than two years to accomplish that, because this cyclical pattern will not end without it.

The Jets have retained everyone in place, no matter how much they got laughed at, without falling apart. Even more important, they know they have the support of their own, so they haven't shown the desperation that we're currently showing, that Farmer and Pettine showed towards the end, etc. I can't be the only person who notices that dysfunction, in-fighting and desperation moves are pretty standard for teams when everyone thinks they're getting fired because the owner isn't communication with his staff well enough. In year three, that difference is showing for the Jets. Admittedly, it's greatly assisted by veterans who won't be around forever (McCown is playing pretty well, they'd be a different team if it was on Hackenberg to deliver) but it will keep them together as they work towards the future.

That's what pressure does. Ever notice we're utterly destroyed for not taking Watson but the Jets happily passed on him and it doesn't get mentioned? At least we got a first round pick to not take him, they got a safety who is currently being outplayed by his counterpart who was selected in the 2nd round. That's not to suggest Adams isn't good, he's balling out himself, but we think they could have used a Watson? Yep.

They don't allow themselves to be distracted by outside noise. Meanwhile, we're ripping each other apart, leaking childish fighting to the media, making wildly desperate moves to improve like selling the farm for McCarron, which we still messed up, and ultimately letting Hue Jackson send a message to this team that I never imagined he'd willingly send: I don't think you can win.

In summary, I put it down to on-field and off. They're staying patient, utilizing their experience and allowing the team to naturally progress. They've clearly got worse, they're not a 10-6 team anymore, but they're slowly rebooting without letting it crumble. We, on the other hand, tore everything down and then lost our minds after a season and a half because, apparently shocking to the team, a bunch of kids can't compete with veteran NFL opposition.

Edit - there is sooooo many spelling errors in this, and I care not to correct them all. I should proofread but my attention was divided while writing this. Apologies.

This ties in with what 'Peen said in another thread: Less quantity, more quality (i.e. trade up in the draft. Fewer but better players)...

Agreed. I'm frustrated by their desire to load up on draft picks every year.

I love that in 2016 and 2017. We gutted the roster, and it was a brilliant decision to try and add as many players as possible. That roster was not in a good way and it was only going to get worse. We needed the numbers and I respect the desire to accomplish that.

This year, however, I'm against it. Out of any draft, it is something if 20 players go on to be pro-bowlers. If 50 of them have careers that span longer than five or six years. There is only so much talent. Maximizing draft selections sure increases your chances of finding those talented players, but it also means you're going to draft plenty of guys who aren't great.

Now that we've got the rebuilding of the foundation out of the way, I hope we get a lot more aggressive with ensuring we get the players we desperately want.

That's what pressure does. Ever notice we're utterly destroyed for not taking Watson but the Jets happily passed on him and it doesn't get mentioned? At least we got a first round pick to not take him, they got a safety who is currently being outplayed by his counterpart who was selected in the 2nd round. That's not to suggest Adams isn't good, he's balling out himself, but we think they could have used a Watson? Yep.""""

BDU is right an to me it is kinda telling.

I agree with most of this, but I think dropped balls and penalties are killers. Dropped balls kill drives and penalties do the same. I think it puts pressure not just on the QB but the entire offense, and causes in the case of the QB to take risks with the ball that aren't necessary.

yeah, i didn't see too many self-inflicted wounds by the Jets Thursday night. In fact, they were the ones making the Bills hurt themselves.

It seems like we're rarely on the right side of the turnovers/penalties/sacks game.