DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Sashi at 1:15 11/6

See Andrew Luck for example.

Why did devicedawg's solid, football-only post get deleted? Because someone insulted his opinion and the people that "liked" it?

There is overwhelming evidence on a yearly basis, season to season, team to team that suggests that you can't win in the NFL without a franchise QB. And since they are not easy to come by I'd say passing on a franchise QB is doing it the wrong way.

The good teams get it. The Eagles got it. The bad teams put bad people in charge who fail to realize this one simple fact.

passing on a franchise QB is always the wrong way regardless, because they are that hard to find, you build around a franchise QB because they make the rest of the players better. Besides, we've already invested heavily in the one thing a franchise QB needs more than anything else.(oline) Thats why guys like Brady and manning and rodgers can take no name players around them and make them look good.

Ha! I get confused too going back and forth. These two topics are running parallel. I think my post you're referring to is on the Haslam thread.

More than passing on franchise Qb's we have been passing on franchise players.

So yes, you can do it without a franchise QB, but you need many more franchise players - Denver didn't win because of Manning, and you could argue that the Legion of Boom had more impact than RW.

Lets hope that MG breaks this cycle, but he is the only one I see capable of being a franchise level player, and we need several on D and on O, the so called skilled/impact players.

I think we realize this. But what happens if you don't like the QB and don't think he's the answer? Do you take him anyway?

You may be right. But at the time I think there was so much pressure to get the QB right. Someone within the organization doubted Wentz. We had recently drafted Quinn, Weeden, Manziel.... there were a lot of people begging the Browns NOT to draft a QB so high.

I remember talking with my friends at the time. I was high on Wentz and they didn't want to draft him #2. That was too high to draft a quarterback from a lesser football division with lesser talent. I kept hearing that over and over as if he was playing a different game. I kept hearing Goff was the one ready to play and it would take Wentz several years... and we should draft Wentz if he's there in the second round but not at #2 overall.

I in fact wasn't upset about not drafting Wentz. Still not. But we still need to find the QB. If we find that QB who is just as good or better then everyone will forget we didn't draft Wentz.

Yes maybe there were reasons not to draft Wentz and DW, but what about Bosa, Zeke, Malik... and before that.. Julio Jones, Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans,OBJ, Khalil Mack etc, etc

Most of this players were BPA, yet we traded down to get more bodies...

You can't know that. The FO needs a high impact draft, and the team needs a franchise QB. Trading down (at the top of the draft) for more picks isn't in the teams best interest because the impact players of need are at the top. Adding bodies to build a roster shouldn't be the goal this year. Getting difference makers on the team should be the goal. It may not be Darnold and Barkley, it could be Allen & Chubb, or Rosen & Sutton or Jackson & Fitzpatrick. Of course there could be trades involved, but the primary goals should be to add playmakers to get this team on track offensively, and to beef up the secondary.

We have the base as we have a fantastic ol and front seven but we lack the game changers, the difference makers.

We don't have to get them all via the draft either. QBs, wrs and a stud corner will be there for the bidding.

I agree. This is a year we can build out the team with impact players. As long as everyone holds their water. Add a franchise QB, and a WR, FS, & CB and it's a completely different team. Add an ILB, another WR, perhaps a top RB and we're dancin'. This is not an impossible task.

Agreed Cal. We're a lot closer than people think. We have a decent still developing O line and finally have a run D. With all our draft picks and another round of FA we can fill these holes we have in 2018. That is IF we make the right selections in the draft and if we can get the FA we want to come here.

They just need to stay out of their own way.

I agree also. Our coaches and FO need to take the Hippocratic Oath in front of the Haslams (or WITH them): "First, do no harm . . . "

Much of what hurt us is what we did to ourselves. Much of the rest is what we neglected to do for ourselves, and the leftovers that go uncorrected? They continue to haunt us as losses mount. We are the enemy, first and foremost. But it is fixable.

You're confusing the idea of passing on QB's early with not taking any at all, ever.

Build the team, then plug in the franchise QB.

Yes, if you believe a guy is a franchise qb, you go and get him. There is no timetable. You don't have to reach for one before you build your team and you don't have to wait to build your team before you take one.

It's as simple as: you get your franchise qb if he is available.

The tricky part is evaluating collegiate qbs these days. We can evaluate accuracy, size, arm strength, toughness, intelligence, athleticism, leadership, etc........but we just don't know if some of these guys can read coverages post-snap and/or go through their progressions quickly enough. We don't know because they aren't asked to do so in the majority of college offenses.

I can pretty much tell if an NFL qb has it or not during their rookie year even though people say you gotta wait three years. However, I just have no idea if some of these qbs can make those post-snap reads and go through their progressions while they are in college. I don't believe anyone can because you can't evaluate what you don't see.

That's why so many NFL guys talk about how hard it is to evaluate many of these college qbs. It's a cool discussion.

I tend to agree that you need to build the foundation first. A QB is like a fancy entry door on a house. You don't put that up first. That goes in after a solid foundation and frame is in place. I think we are at the point we can now go for a QB, and then build around him.

LOL peen. That is a terrible analogy.

I agree with you. If this team would have been built this way from the beginning, back in '99. This quagmire we've been in would not exist. The first few years would have been rough, but a true "base" would have been built. The draft has been all the regimes downfall since the return.

I'm not implying that what they are doing is guaranteed to work, but I view it as a reasonable approach. The QB, is always going to be the guy who makes or breaks you in the end. But even great QBs can struggle trying to carry a bad team.

No system has ever been given the time to plant itself as the "Browns" system. Teams like Pitt and NE, have stable systems that are not changed much, maybe tweaked over the years. Their drafting becomes easier, due to the fact that they know what a player has to be capable in their system. And that system stays the same as the players grow into it.

The Browns have gone through so many changes, good players are let go by new regimes who feel they don't fit their system. Add to that changing systems every few years, even the scouts are tasked.

A QB, will always be the missing key in the end, but building a strong base, and continuing the system as new young players come in leads to continuity and depth long term.

I hate the losing. I've no patience anymore. But, I believe that if this thing is left alone for at least 5 years, The culture we all crave will be there.

But the QB, we can all hope, may someday actually appear.

People get on me when I ask for links, but I do so because I've seen comments made on this board that were opinions stated as fact and then are later accepted as truths because we "read it somewhere."

I think you are making an honest mistake due to some people saying Wentz wasn't rated very high. I've seen that comment on here several times recently.

I think that most people who do the mock drafts for publications and most college draft reporters had Goff and Wentz as going first and second in the draft. In fact, Wentz was rated ahead of Goff by most of the prognosticators. Then, the Rams moved up to number 1 and there was some discussion as to who they preferred. They eventually leaked that it was Goff.

No need to take my word for it. I just did a quick google search and typed in 2016 NFL Draft predictions. These were the three sites at the top of the page. If you--and others--click on them, you will see that all three had Goff at 1 and Wentz at 2, and it is also mentioned that it was clear the Rams preferred Goff.


http://walterfootball.com/draft2016.php

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2636003-2016-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-final-7-round-picks

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000655072/article/2016-sevenround-nfl-mock-draft-round-1

You can do your own search and maybe even go back to before the trade between the Titans and Rams was made to see my claims if some places had Wentz ahead of Goff.

Oh heck.........I'll do it. Here is one link of a debate between two former NFL scouts: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...-with-no-1-pick

Now, w/all of that said.........I do not know who was responsible for passing on Wentz or who was responsible for not trading up for Goff. What I do know is that it's unfair to say things like Wentz [or Goff for that matter] were not highly regarded coming out of college.

This is kind of misleading. All those mocks were right before the draft. It was a given at that point that Goff and Wentz were going 1 and 2. You don't make that trade up and then not take a QB, and that other scout report is the same, after the Rams traded up and it was obvious that they were taking a QB.

I'm not disagreeing that several people liked Wentz and several probably had him in the running for the top QB, but there were tons of people who had doubts too. He had limited game experience, was injured for most of his senior year, and played at a D1-AA school. Physical talent but also health and mental questions. He has obviously put those questions to rest at this point.

IMO if we can get some good solid talent for DK to work with, playmakers, he will make positive strides. I know he has to learn reads and progressions but he is very young and needs experience. With better skill players around him he will gain that confidence he needs. A better running game would help too. We need a better starting RB than Crow.

j/c

What I would like to point out is that most of these "draft experts" that everyone seems to try and use as their sources as to why we didn't draft Wentz ( he wasn't rated highly/projected as a mid round pick ) are guys that aren't much better at evaluating talent then some of the posters on this message board.

It's very easy to form your own opinions then find one or more of these supposed experts that agree with your point of view. But let's be honest here. Most of these guys would and could never sniff a job in an NFL FO. They aren't really experts at anything at all other than having an opinion just like the rest of us.

There are only 32 experts. They make seven figure salaries to make these decisions to draft these players. Everyone else out there are no more than talking heads. Now you can say what you like and I'm sure you will. lol But the people the Rams and Philly pay those seven figure salaries to got it right. Our FO got it wrong. They get paid seven figures to net results.

People really need to quit using third rate hacks that claim to be experts to try to bolster their arguments. The results from the real experts are in.

Kind of ironic coming from someone who said he wouldn't draft Goff or Wentz in the first round, wouldn't ya say?

So posters on a message board should be held to the same standard as people making seven figure salaries to make those decisions. Got it!

I am not an expert.

I provided links w/draft projections including two observations by former NFL scouts.

But, go ahead and dismiss all of that, and make it personal.

Nope. Didn't say that.

And btw------I had a mid-first round grade on Wentz. But, it isn't about me.

The post I made was meant to be educational. Period.

You're on me for making something personal? You are joking, right?

Nothing personal at all. I just think it's unfair to say no one doubted Wentz and point to 3-4 mock drafts. One is not proof of the other.

If you don't believe there were people who didn't rate Wentz high, google "Wentz doubters."

Of course you didn't. And most people that read your post understand that.

Lolz. Looking back on some posts is fun. I saw 3rd round grade and "not in the first round". Seeing all the insults spewed out was hilarious too. Telling everyone how much you were educating posters about Wentz and how much people didn't want to learn!

But whatever, do your thing.

Yeah, trying to suggest that a poster on a message board made an incorrect QB evaluation makes it sound like it's more personal than I first posted actually.

Seriously not trying to make anything personal.

I went back to see what I said about Carson Wentz with all this talk. It is fun to go back and check. I came across a post of yours about not drafting Goff, Wentz, or Lynch in the first round and then read your Wentz rating post here... I made the comment... nothing more than that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to change it if they wish.

It was also interesting to read some of the RG3 posts. And how some felt it was a foregone conclusion we weren't drafting a QB after signing RG3, and how excited a lot of us were about RG3... but there were still doubters.


And I will say it is interesting to go back and see how many people were pimping Johnny. Me included. I still think if he had his head screwed on right we'd have had our franchise QB.

Um... you missed the point.

It has nothing to do with his evaluation of Wentz. I couldn't care less about that. Heck, I once said Joey Bosa would be a bust. My point was that he was saying he doesn't know where people came up with this low rating on Wentz stuff because it wasn't true, yet he himself rated Wentz out of the first round. It was nothing more. Just irony. Sorry to offend.


I still think Johnny has the tools to be a franchise quarterback. Let's change the subject and ridicule me for that, shall we?

I do not think anybody passes on a “franchise quarterback”!! period!!! when manning came out there was no question who was going first. When luck came out the only question was I which franchise qb goes first, luck or griffin. people do not pass on what is undeniably (they hope) a franchise qb.
they pass when the qb at the top of the draft class has question marks. I cannot remember a class since luck that had a “ sure fire” franchise qb”. and it had, they thought, two. of course they were wrong about griffin. since then every qb class has had big question marks.
so our qb evaluators, whoever they are blew it and were hoodwinked by the evaluators of the eagles. A shame since all the pressure would be off our coach and to.

Thanks for taking the time Vers ... appreciate it ...

What i’d really like to see is the scouting reports ... cause i’m one of the ones thats claimed revisionist history ... i don’t like spreading false info ... HATE IT for exactly the reasons u stated ...

I have never and will never blame the FO or Hue for that ... if they didn’t love Wentz then trading back was the thing to do ... we needed an influx of talent and building through the draft is the best way to get started ...

Any chance u can dig up some scouting reports for my lazy ass ....