Had to go back and read as it was not such a big deal...but evidently it must be.
Elaborate on your comparison from Pryor and Coleman in their production. As I stated one is underachieving due to their injuries the other is underachieving due to their play on the field.
Pretty simple and out in the open. Not everything is a Huff and puff moment.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Well, let's be real here. We invested a first round pick in Coleman. People thought it was a brilliant move to pay BO's contract of 16 mil for a second round pick. According to that logic, we paid 16mil for a few month rental for a crappy QB just to get a second round pick.
So then what kind of value would one place on a mid first round pick? 20mil? So it seems to me that so far the Browns pretty much gave up a pick most on here would be a pick worth around 20 mil. plus his contract amount for a WR who can't stay on the field.
So I don't see where either one is doing any better or costing any more than the other. I mean unless you think we way overpaid for the second round pick we'll be getting for the cash dump we spent for BO. Which is what I believe.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Additionally, what I see this FO doing is not allowing players and their agents to play us off another team - or play another team off of us. Ever since we've been so flush with cap space and cash, we've been a de facto target in negotiations; any time a player is in negotiations, we're almost ALWAYS rumored to be involved and yes sometimes we are, but I'd wager that mostly it is because agents and teams alike know that we have money to spend, so if a team wants to get a player, they'll need to spend.
For several years, it has been a regular occurrence for a player's agent to strike up a deal with another team then come back to us for "an opportunity to match" and all that is really happens is that it gets the other team to up their offer a little before the player signs. It's basically exactly what happened with Alex Mack, and I believe Schwartz as well... and I would not be surprised in the least if it wasn't what happened with Pryor. Actually, I fully expect it to the point I'd be shocked if it was not what happened.
Sure, the agent and player get to say that they came back to us, but they never intended to sign here - they were just using us to drive up the other team. This FO doesn't play with that and doesn't buy into it, and I LIKE THAT.
Reading responses in this thread, it seems that some Browns fans are more interested in winning the other "Lombardi Trophy"....the one that is awarded to the franchise with the "most cap space available"...the award the Browns front office won last year:
......."Lombardi Award"....... ............"2016"............ ...."NFL Cap Space Winner".... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Some don't seem to understand that this award comes at a cost and we must answer some tough questions???
Are the Browns a better team without Pryor?
Are the Browns a better team without Mitch Schwartz?
Are the Browns a better team without Tashaun Gipson?
Are the Browns a better team with Kenny Britt? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I must confess, the reason I'm a Browns fan (for over 50yrs), I enjoy watching the Browns WIN FOOTBALL GAMES !
Unlike many of you who have responded to this thread, when it comes to Browns football, it seems that my compass points about 180 degrees from yours.
I'm not the least bit impressed by a front office that can't find a way to sign their own free agents, especially when the front office is loaded with cap space...
...that makes no freaking sense, what so ever!
IMO, some of you have your wires crossed, seeming to enjoy the front office's contract negotiations and sticking it to our own players and their agents when it comes time to negotiate contracts with our own free agents. Some seem to enjoy that more than watching the Browns play football.
You boys answer me one question ... seeing players, who have performed well for the Browns, kicked to the curb because this front office didn't have "the ability or desire" to re-sign them... IS THAT WHY YOU ARE A BROWNS FAN?......is it the CAP SPACE that makes you proud to be a Browns fan?
The Browns players I named above..the front office is still struggling to find players to replace them..players capable of playing at the same level. Some of our fans seem to believe that the Browns are a better team without signing our own free agents.
A penny pinching front office will not make the BROWNS A WINNER...need proof?...1 win and 25 losses should tell us something.
- the contract we gave to Collins - the extension we gave to Kirksey - the contract we gave Zietler - the offers we made to the Safety and CB that turned us down even though we offered more ..
And to a lesser extent the money we gave to Trettier (the center)
And just because it was a HORRIBLE move doesn’t take away from the money we gave Britt ...
Other than that Willie ... U AINT GOT A LEG TO STAND ON BRO ... GET OFF MAC’S CASE ... ...
I understand what you're saying but your premise is off base.
As a Browns fan I don't care who is on the roster. I don't care who is playing QB, who is paying RB, who is playing CB, etc... I just want to win. We can sit (or stand) here and speculate all we want on the players that aren't here or who we think would help us.
I'm sure Jamie Collins would make the Patriots better. I'm sure Zeitler would make the Bengals better.
I think it's been pretty well documented that our attempts to retain free agents were not a failure on the front office. I'm not going to rehash them all because the truth will be ignored anyway.
To me being a Browns fan isn't about spending money to retain my favorite players, it's about wanting to win.
Just because they have the money it doesn't mean that they should overpay for their free agents. Although, they have in some instances.
And I don't think it's fair to say we have a "penny pinching" front office. We are far from it. Have you seen the trade for Osweiler? Have you seen the contract given to Zeitler? How about Collins? Bitonio? And a raise given to Joe Thomas? Did you miss those or just choose to ignore them? Claiming we have a penny pinching front office is just as they say these days, "fake news."
What's wrong with Shon Coleman as a "replacement" for Schwartz?
I know I'm crossing topics here, so I apologize, but the truth is if we fire everyone and then end up winning games and going to the playoffs within the next 2 seasons it will be because of the current regime in place TODAY! We are in such a great position to be great, not just good, in the next couple of seasons. We had a tremendous draft last year, drafted some good young talent this year and have some great early assets in the 2018 draft!
I know some will never praise our current front office, but we will be good soon because of them, not in spite of them...
I understand what you're saying but your premise is off base.
As a Browns fan I don't care who is on the roster. I don't care who is playing QB, who is paying RB, who is playing CB, etc... I just want to win. We can sit (or stand) here and speculate all we want on the players that aren't here or who we think would help us.
I'm sure Jamie Collins would make the Patriots better. I'm sure Zeitler would make the Bengals better.
I think it's been pretty well documented that our attempts to retain free agents were not a failure on the front office. I'm not going to rehash them all because the truth will be ignored anyway.
To me being a Browns fan isn't about spending money to retain my favorite players, it's about wanting to win.
Just because they have the money it doesn't mean that they should overpay for their free agents. Although, they have in some instances.
And I don't think it's fair to say we have a "penny pinching" front office. We are far from it. Have you seen the trade for Osweiler? Have you seen the contract given to Zeitler? How about Collins? Bitonio? And a raise given to Joe Thomas? Did you miss those or just choose to ignore them? Claiming we have a penny pinching front office is just as they say these days, "fake news."
What's wrong with Shon Coleman as a "replacement" for Schwartz?
I know I'm crossing topics here, so I apologize, but the truth is if we fire everyone and then end up winning games and going to the playoffs within the next 2 seasons it will be because of the current regime in place TODAY! We are in such a great position to be great, not just good, in the next couple of seasons. We had a tremendous draft last year, drafted some good young talent this year and have some great early assets in the 2018 draft!
I know some will never praise our current front office, but we will be good soon because of them, not in spite of them...
Quoted to add:
These young men need a leader to get them where they need to be...and I think Hue is that guy...even though I think he does some incredibly stupid things.
They laid out this course and are following it but they haven't arrived yet. Nothing about where we are today should come as a surprise to anyone.
I agree... I think our guys respond well to Hue. And I think if Kizer turns out to be a decent QB (and Hue isn't around) you have to give Hue some credit.
I think Pryor would be another good example. I think he would go out of his way to re-sign with the Browns if Hue is still here. Now I don't necessarily think we screwed up with him not being here and I don't think he's a savior by any means, but it's step in the right direction.
What's wrong with Shon Coleman as a "replacement" for Schwartz?
PFF stats from Coleman against the Lions - 82.9 overall grade, 0 pressures allowed, positive on 18.5% of run blocks, 2nd best OT across the NFL. He also didn't allow a pressure against the Vikings, where he received an 89.6 grade, so he hasn't allowed a pressure in two straight games, according to PFF.
It's almost like young players show improvement with more playing time. Shon, like most of our players, isn't perfect. But we've got a lot of guys with an incredibly bright future.
I don't miss Schwartz either. Shon Coleman is a beast. I don't know why our fans don't like him more. He's a fantastic young player. It's only his first year starting. He's 10 games in to his career.
Much like the movie 'Pearl Harbor', you completely missed the point, but that is not surprising at all, because you don't want to see any point other than the same drivel you try to hammer home endlessly no matter how many times you've been debunked.
It's like trying to point out to Nigel that 11 is the same as 10.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
So then what kind of value would one place on a mid first round pick? 20mil? So it seems to me that so far the Browns pretty much gave up a pick most on here would be a pick worth around 20 mil. plus his contract amount for a WR who can't stay on the field.
The front office has literally said they are going to miss on some picks (which is one of the reasons why it's a good thing we have so many picks).
tab, I still don't know exactly what you are asking me. I make a lot of posts and am not sure which one you are referring to. I am not upset. I'm just unclear as to what you are asking me.
A lot of people rip on Hue all the time and keep bringing up our record, yet most of those same people are the ones who say what a good job our FO is doing and fail to mention our record.
A lot of people rip on Hue all the time and keep bringing up our record, yet most of those same people are the ones who say what a good job our FO is doing and fail to mention our record.
I think that is hypocritical as can be.
I just read a post of yours I believe in one of the FO threads. It was about the players we haven't resigned. You used the term to rail against them that it's a "bottom line business." You've never used that logic with Hue.
See this is what happens when you take a position so aggressively and twist every little thing to support that position and to trash the other side. You walk yourself into a lot of double talk.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Regarding the FO your approach was - "it's a bottom line business" .... never mind any extenuating circumstances, it boils down to results.
When it comes to Hue - you aren't judging him by bottom line results.
I happen to think the way you review and analyze Hue's performance is the more fair and balanced perspective --- and the same perspective can and should be used when judging how the FO performed with the resigning of players.... especially when some (like Mack) had absolutely no interest in resigning.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
I don't think you are being observant. The bottom line is that the FO is 1 and 24, yet people ignore that, yet they constantly bring it up when talking about Hue.
So, how can Hue be 1 and 24, but the FO isn't?
I'll take it a step further. I think the FO is more responsible for our record than Hue is. Are you going to deny that? If so, cfrs has a poll going on in the K-9 forum. Go vote.
I don't think you are being observant. The bottom line is that the FO is 1 and 24, yet people ignore that, yet they constantly bring it up when talking about Hue.
So, how can Hue be 1 and 24, but the FO isn't?
I'll take it a step further. I think the FO is more responsible for our record than Hue is. Are you going to deny that? If so, cfrs has a poll going on in the K-9 forum. Go vote.
Well I guess this whole topic really comes down to a matter of personal, subjective perspective right? That being whether or not one believes that we have talent on the roster, or that we don't.
If you think we have enough talent to have won a couple games, then you would naturally lay blame at Hue's feet. Conversely, if you think Sashi has only brought in crap that doesn't deserve to be in the league, than clearly the blame would go there.
My belief is that this team is on an ascending trajectory. Assuming 3 things happen:
1) this FO and coaching staff are kept together 2) Hue is able to keep the current guys from quitting on him and the season 3) and the FO is able to take steps forward in identifying and integrating intangibles ..
I think this team will be poised for a break out season next year. Not 5 wins.. but we could.. should come in around .500.
We need 4 pieces to complete the puzzle: QB, WR, CB, and FS. 3 of the 4 are positions that if we get the right player, are positions that wouldn't have to take 2-3 years in order to get something out of it. Those are positions we could see immediate impact at. Having that complete team is what will allow a 2nd year Kizer, a vet from somewhere else, or even a top flight college QB to post a .500 season (at least).
This FO keeps getting flak for passing on Wentz... but I think one can easily argue that the players we turned that pick in to has helped this team become a lot closer to a complete team than we would have been.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
If you think we have enough talent to have won a couple games, then you would naturally lay blame at Hue's feet. Conversely, if you think Sashi has only brought in crap that doesn't deserve to be in the league, than clearly the blame would go there.
No offense, but I think you are making it too black and white.
In the poll that I referenced, cfrs asked a question that was something along the lines of: Who do you blame more for the Brown's record. He then gave us choices to vote on.
My reply was something similar to: I wouldn't assign blame to any of the groups. I said I think the FO is more responsible for the record, but if we start winning, they will be more responsible if we are successful moving forwards.
Here is my thinking: We blew things up. Haslam and Sashi admitted it was a multi-year rebuild. I believe that both parties knew we would lose a tremendous amount of games the first couple of years.
Tying that back into the conversation, I think it is unfair to place all the "blame" on Hue by talking about "his" record and ignoring the record when speaking of the FO.
Now, someone like Rish can come on here, twist the intent of my words around and try to make me look foolish, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
I also do not think that the FO has brought "crap" in here. I agree w/some of their moves and disagree w/others. My bottom line is that I am not "blaming" either side, but I do think that it is grossly unfair that Hue is getting so much grief for 1 and 24 while the FO gets a pass from so many of the guys who post frequently on these threads.
I think the reason you don't see more blame put on the FO is for the simple reason that most people understand that losing was going to be a byproduct of this rebuild. And so many arguments that appear to be giving them a pass, or maybe not as critical as some believe it should be already take that in to consideration and so someone like me just doesn't see the need to rehash that.
I have another point I'd like to make about the FO and Hue.. in deference to the topic of this thread, I'm going to move it over to the Halsam decision thread..
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
Thanks, Vers. Just Time Warped at 9:35 AM. Twice. Bad day just got better. I love Rocky Horror. This would be a great half time show along with "Mony, Mony" at the stadium. But Berea has been TW Central. Deja vu all over again.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
So then what kind of value would one place on a mid first round pick? 20mil? So it seems to me that so far the Browns pretty much gave up a pick most on here would be a pick worth around 20 mil. plus his contract amount for a WR who can't stay on the field.
The front office has literally said they are going to miss on some picks (which is one of the reasons why it's a good thing we have so many picks).
More numbers, lower picks. 0-9
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
You are so anti Browns quite frankly who cares what you believe...Just cause you take stuff and make it sound WRONG does not make it wrong.
Its Haslam's money only he lost out on the money spent on BO...but you just do not get it. It doesn't change the Pryor deal one bit.
One had no consequences on negotiations as in a precedent. The other did. Just cause in your AGENDA you say its Apples to Apples does not make it so. Its not like you wouldn't make something up or anything...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Are you finished ranting now? We're 0-9. Quit acting like the people willing to face the facts of what a mess we're in is a problem. Sorry Mr. Positive, you're orange colored glasses aren't helping anything and aren't going to change anything.
You've been wrong more often than any poster on this board with all of your, "everything will be sunshine and roses". So give it a rest.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
If you think we have enough talent to have won a couple games, then you would naturally lay blame at Hue's feet. Conversely, if you think Sashi has only brought in crap that doesn't deserve to be in the league, than clearly the blame would go there.
You nailed it right here. We have talent to win, but we aren't winning anything. Meanwhile Hue consistently puts his team at a disadvantage on the field.
I mean, declining a penalty on 3rd down and then having your players jump offside on 4th down giving up a first down is on the front office? Really? Calling a timeout with 40+ seconds left on the clock giving the opponent time to score is on the front office? Did the front office tell Hue to kick off in overtime? I'm hopeful he's learning from these mistakes and won't repeat them. Being a HC is far different than just being an OC. You can be a phenomenal coordinator and a terrible head coach all at the same time.
If we were 3-6 right now no one, NO ONE (well, maybe someone) would be here badmouthing Hue. At 3-6 we'd be here talking about being 3-4 players away from being something great and that we are moving along as planned. Some of us still are, but the main focus has been 0-9. And I think it's impossible to say that Hue is not at fault for our record.
With that said, I hope that everyone stays. No changes and let them see this through. I don't think we can go into a "rebuild" of this magnitude and fire everyone after two years...again. However, with 7 games to go this season, we need to have wins or a change is probably inevitable.
then having your players jump offside on 4th down giving up a first down
How dare he tell his players to do that?!!!
Just ribbing ya
Why in Hell is everyone so intent on trying to boil it down to just ONE person/thing to blame? Haven't we all learned by now that it is never that simplistic, unless of course you just want to ignore reality.
The FO has made mistakes, Hue had made mistakes, this incredibly young roster has made TONS of mistakes week after week after week after week... It's a combined effort, folks. There is NOT a single point of failure; this isn't Madden on your PS4.
Hue is getting better, the FO is getting better (and many of their questionable moves are proving themselves out over time), and the players are getting better.
I have no doubts at all that NOBODY expected this rebuild to start off 1-24, or whatever the record is now, but anybody that has paid attention in the least knew it was going to be BAD, Really BAD, before it got better. While the extent of how bad it has been may be a surprise, the fact that it has or for how long it has lasted should not be a surprise to ANYONE that even half-assed paid attention. NOBODY.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Why in Hell is everyone so intent on trying to boil it down to just ONE person/thing to blame? Haven't we all learned by now that it is never that simplistic, unless of course you just want to ignore reality.
The FO has made mistakes, Hue had made mistakes, this incredibly young roster has made TONS of mistakes week after week after week after week... It's a combined effort, folks. There is NOT a single point of failure; this isn't Madden on your PS4.
We need this written in the stars for the damn world to see.
It could be that Hue, trying to be HC and OC, is too much for him to have on his plate. He would never admit it but I feel that is a good part of the problem with mistakes he has made. I feel Hue is a good coach but wearing 2 hats is more than he can handle. We need an OC. JMO
It could be that Hue, trying to be HC and OC, is too much for him to have on his plate. He would never admit it but I feel that is a good part of the problem with mistakes he has made. I feel Hue is a good coach but wearing 2 hats is more than he can handle. We need an OC. JMO
Preaching this the whole team and would love to see Hue get an OC and surrender those duties so he can focus elsewhere on being a HC.
... 
..
