DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer rnd. 4

In what reality is Jimmy Clausen a fair comparison to Deshone Kizer?

Clausen scored 3 touchdowns in the 12 games he appeared as a rookie. He never had 200 yards in a game. He had zero athleticism, questionable throwing talent and nothing to suggest he had long-term upside worth developing. He was a desperation selection in a weak quarterback class (Minus Bradford, who hasn't himself been great) who couldn't even get picked ahead of Tim Tebow.

Deshone Kizer scores at over 3x the rate, has 25% more yardage production, has elite physical upside, is already one of the NFL's more impressive rushing quarterbacks and, unlike Clausen, is trending in the right direction. Deshone is the antithesis of Jimmy Clausen. He's already better, and was drafted as high as he was because he had the upside that Clausen has wet dreams about having.

In fact, Jimmy Clausen never actually had a good game in the NFL. He won a single game in six years (141 yards, 1 TD) and passed for over 200 yards only twice (Five years after he was drafted) in 21 appearances.

I get it that Kizer hasn't shown himself to be a franchise quarterback, but saying he's comparable to Jimmy Clausen just isn't accurate.

There is also no Cam Newton in this upcoming draft. There has never been a prospect who boasted the athletic and passing ability of Cam Newton.

In Newton's first seven years he has 205 touchdowns and 26,854 yards. Wait, that's Tom Brady's first seven years (Not including the first year because he didn't play). Newton has 203 touchdowns and 28,202 yards. So he's literally MORE productive than the greatest QB of all time in less games across their first 7 years in the league - and Newton still has 5 games to go this year.

Newton wasn't some flippant need selection, he was a clear-cut elite prospect who looked like he'd been created in a video game - and has lived up to that hype.

I want to rant about your post, but I won't.

I think your opinions are incorrect.

Cam Newton is not a good qb. He is an athlete. He is also an immature, irrational, whiner. He stole a lap top in college. He cheated on an academic exam. He was kicked out of a college. His dad tried to sell him to other colleges. And yet, people question Rosen's character? LOL

Cam needs all day to throw. He isn't very good at reading post snap coverages. He is often inaccurate.

Worst of all...........the guy might be bipolar. He goes to obscene extremes while celebrating and then a series later he is pouting on the bench and ignoring his OC. He cries after almost every game and acts like his a victim.

That is not a leader.

I would much rather have a guy like Rosen than Cam. And it isn't even close.

Rosen is a spoiled rich boy who isn't gonna settle for Cleveland. No thanks. Haven't we been there before.

yea i just disagree.

like i said, there's to many factors involved with determining that. because if our #1 overall looks like trash, people will be wanting to draft a QB in the first round again the following year. because thats the logic of "you draft a QB every year until you find one".

one year evaluations? we still got 5 games to go with Kizer, and he isn't anywhere near as bad as clausen was.

Kizer has a lot of talent. lets just see if it can manifest itself, especially with (hopefully) a rise in talent starting on sunday. 5 games.

Have you met him?

No, but I have heard all about him.

do you understand why i compared him to cutler?

because thats what people are saying about Rosen. that he ACTS like Cutler. they question is work ethic and if he really wants it or not.

look at what some are saying:

http://thebiglead.com/2017/05/04/nfl-sco...-off-the-field/

and there's plenty of articles out there for you to look at that brings off his off the field stuff problems and mentality on the game, as far as wanting to put in the work.

so yea we can question Rosen's character. just because Cam has character flaws doesn't mean Rosen is immune to any criticism. and it seems that contrary to what you say, there's a ton of people who say that Cam is a leader on the field and in the locker room.

there's not too many saying that about Rosen. and to top it off, Rosen will be coming into the league already with an injury history. that's not to say that he won't overcome that, but it's a factor.

Cam also led his team to a national title. Rosen can't even keep his team ranked. sure there's a ton of factors, but thats the entire point to begin with.

we already deal with QB's who get hurt a lot, should we pick a guy who's possibly coming into the league already damaged goods?

yea, i much rather have Cam than Rosen, especially since Cam already led his team to a superbowl appearance, and the other hasn't even been drafted yet.

No problem. I disagree.

Eve, haven't you heard "speculation?" Can you show me his police blotter reports? Can you show me if has attacked women? Can you show me if he stole computers? Can you show me if has shouted sexual obsceneties towards women on a table in a college cafe? Can you show me where he has a history of drug abuse? Can you show me where he has a DUI? Can you show me he really has done anything that is all that bad?

Seriously Eve.

Don't listen to the dolts on here. Investigate and then make up your own mind. You are too smart to listen to the fools.

Let me correct you - You want to rant about my post, but you can't.

As much as you dislike Cam Newton as a person, you can't attack an MVP quarterback with 28,000 yards of offense, 200 touchdowns, 3x Pro-Bowl appearances, an All-Pro to his name and a Superbowl appearance. Those accolades annihilate your "not a good QB" rant so you won't even bother.

Rosen also has character concerns. You can dismiss it all you want, but we'd be wise to have questions when a quarterback's team mates and coaches don't like him. If he comes in to the NFL with a better-than-you, pompous, arrogant, stuck-up attitude and isn't willing to pay his dues and bust his ass, that's a major problem for a locker room. Those questions on Rosen need to be addressed.

Newton having his own problems doesn't overshadow that.

Actually I didn't hear this on here at all. I heard it elsewhere. From close buddies actually.

I don't want this guy. If you think he is gonna settle for Cleveland, then you're fooling yourself.

But it doesn't even matter.

We drafted Kizer to be The Guy. And he has been steadily progressing.

There is no reason to draft another QB at this point in time.

So I doubt the FO will bite on that.

No, I refuse your correction because it is blatently incorrect.

I don't want to get into a pissing match w/you. You stated your opinions. I stated mine. I think we are both fairly adamant about those positions and neither of us will change our minds. So, I'll leave it at that.

What do you mean when you say "settle for Cleveland?"

Does the sad pathetic state of football in Cleveland really need explanation?

Who wants to play here?

Nobody!

Just come on man. lol

You have your opinions. I stated facts. It isn't an opinion that Cam Newton is an MVP quarterback with 28,000 yards, 200 touchdowns, 3x Pro-Bowl appearances, who is an All-Pro that has been to a Superbowl. That are all facts.

It is an opinion to disrespectfully belittle a serious mental illness with a pseudo-diagnosis of a person you've never met, which is ironic coming from a guy who is complaining about speculation. It is an opinion to state Newton is a bad quarterback in spite of his lengthy accolades that do not get awarded to go to bad quarterbacks.

That's not a pissing match. It's me stating facts, and you stating your opinion. I'm not adamant about a position, I'm certain of facts.

I am not comparing the player, I am comparing the situation.

Guy who was supposed to be a first rounder leading into his last year before entering the draft. Falling to the 2nd, getting a chance to start as a rookie. Being less than stellar in the opportunity given and some pretty decent talent at Qb coming out in the draft.

They had to answer the question: Do we draft a Qb #1 overall or do we stick with the guy we drafted in the 2nd round?

Don't look at it with such a myopic viewpoint.

The Rosen character concerns:

There are no legal issues.

He had a hot tub installed in his dorm room (everyone thought that was cool when Rodney Dangerfield did it in back to school.

He has voiced his opinion on things. He made statements that he is college to play football, not go to class. I think he may have made some political commentary as well but I am not sure.

He is very cocky. He walks around the UCLA campus like his sheet don't stink. I hear this from a friend who is currently in school at UCLA.

There is rumor that his teammates don't like him. I do not know if that is the case or not. My friend on campus is a freshman and she doesn't run in those circles.

Adding context to a narrowed situational comparison is the opposite of myopia.

They aren't the same situations just because of two second round picks and two first overall picks. That is the only similarity to two wildly different situations.

Kizer is undoubtedly a better player than Clausen, it isn't even close, and Kizer has a significantly better chance of developing a long-term career as a starting quarterback.

And there is no quarterback in the 2018 class with the hype of Cam Newton. The 2018 class doesn't even have a clear-cut #1 QB. Just because we might need a quarterback does not mean we should be inventing elite prospects. Cam Newton was the consensus top prospect in a draft that saw 12 of the top 16 players go on to become Pro-Bowlers - Von Miller, A.J Green, Julio Jones, Patrick Peterson, J.J Watt, Tyron Smith and Robert Quinn amongst them - and Newton was the best without hesitation.

If the Browns are going to move on from Kizer, they need to be very selective before making a decision. This one won't be as easy as sprinting to the podium for a Cam Newton. Most can't even decide if they like Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield or Jackson best. Suggesting otherwise is myopic. The situation needs to be independently determined rather than blindly following precedent.

Think about this.

We'll have the #1 or #2 pick. We'll also have what looks to be a Top 10 pick from Houston. 6-10 is realistic from them. That's 2-3 in their last 5.

You say BUILD the TEAM.

Why can't we build the team Starting with that Top 10 pick and 3 2nd Rounders along with the 1st or 2nd pick in Round 3. And a boatload of Cap $?.

I'll tell you right now that outside of Rosen or Darnold, this is a horrible draft to have the #1 pick.

Barkley at 1? Yuck. A RB? No way.
James at #1? Love him but no way at #1.
McGlinchy at #1? Maybe. LTs are rare commodities at #1. Is he Joe Thomas good?

If we don't want Rosen or Darnold, we best be SELLING the #1 pick to the highest bidder.

I don't need to see any Combines or Pro Days. FOOTBALL is almost over for these guys. You could take about 7 players from 2-7 and all of them would be interchangeable.

THAT'S a draft you TRADE out of #1 if you don't want the QB.

If we don't want the QB, we need to get a James and Sutton combination.

If we DO want the QB,. Then you start building the rest of the team with Houston's pick.

Either way it works incredibly well.

Rosen and Sutton. James and Sutton. Win-win.

All depends on our desire for a QB. But regardless of what we do. We'll STILL have major ammo to build more.

Just do not feel the same deep, deep admiration you seem to have for Cam. Emotional baggage gets in his own way. Not the QB we need IMO. Better than ours, gifted, and more drama than I want. Has all the restraint of Ray Lewis and Ocho Stinko perhaps. He may be great, just not what i want here.

No offense, but I don't believe this. Newton is a polarizing figure, but if the Browns had any chance to actually acquire him, nobody would be against it.

The guy is the star quarterback for an 8-3 football team. He's won more games this season than the Browns have won since this time of year in 2014.

I mean, he's having a "down year" with only 2,800 total yards and 19 total touchdowns in spite of losing his three best receivers from a year ago (Benjamin traded, Ginn left in F/A, Olsen injured).

If the Browns had a realistic shot at getting him, nobody in their right mind would complain unless they were wearing a Steelers jersey under their suit like an anti-hero Superman of rape culture and annoying voices.

But, that is all beside the point, because his 8-3 team wouldn't give him up for Cleveland. Literally. We could offer the city in a trade and they'd pass.

What remains important is Cam Newton didn't arrive in Carolina because he's a quarterback, he arrived in Carolina because he's the quarterback and they couldn't refuse his services. The Browns will still have to determine the value of the 2018 quarterback class before dedicating the #1 overall selection, and giving up on Deshone Kizer's development, before that can be set in motion.

Even at this time of year, it is beyond safe to say that none of the quarterbacks in the 2018 class possess the sheer amount of talent that Cam Newton had when entering the league. It is going to take diligent evaluation to get this thing right.

Maybe myopic wasn't the right word. But you are clearly missing the forest because of all the trees. You are totally side stepping my point to focus on the detail rather than the concept. Perhaps if you refer back to the post I responded to you might get the jist of what I am saying.

Anyway, I am out of town for the weekend so won't be replying. Catch all you guys next week. Hopefully after a Browns victory.

j/c

Some people wish to take a huge risk by depending on Kizer to turn out to be the guy. Others wish to double down by drafting a guy like Rosen number one overall. The odds of success increase by doubling down. Having two good QB's has never been a problem, ever. Having no QB has haunted this team for decades.

The choice is actually pretty clear.

The downside is you don't really have two quarterbacks.

Even if Kizer did clearly perform better than the rookie and earned the starting job, clear cut with no real contest, he would be on the shortest leash imaginable. Any non-elite game would have fans and media screaming for the rookie to be inserted.

Meanwhile, if the rookie starts but has the typical rookie struggles, fans and media will be screaming for Kizer to be inserted because the rookie isn't ready/is a bust and Kizer better knows what he's doing and has the experience on his side.

In either eventuality, the coaches are dumb and everyone needs to be fired, screams half the fan base and media who like "the other guy."

Every loss, interception and in many cases mere incompletion will be added pressure on the Browns to make adjustments or just outright encourage screaming that everything was wrong. Fans and media will take 'sides' and their quarterback not starting will result in people being unfairly critical of everything "the other guy" doesn't do.

Kizer will get the worst of it. Unless it is a 300 yard, 3 TD performance, people will want him benched. He will have zero room for error. It took two weeks this year for people to start begging for Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan. That will only be magnified with a #1 overall rookie.

People always say it will be different this time. Clear and simple. Whoever wins, wins, and he'll be given adequate time to prove his worth and learn through experience while the other gets plenty of development time. Yet the Quinn/Anderson and Hoyer/Manziel eras have been some of the least enjoyable, most disruptive times in the Browns post-return era that led to division, uncertainty, in-fighting and disruption.

You pick one, you build around him, and you give him the freedom to grow. You either give Kizer a team and give him the freedom to grow as your guy, or you take a rookie and let Kizer go do his thing elsewhere while committing to your first overall selection.

Neither player should be "developing" with an unrealistic weight of expectation while knowing he needs to be looking over his shoulder every single play lest the boo-birds come out in force and pressure ramps up for significant changes to be made.

I would love to believe in a idyllic setting where we can have two young quarterbacks developing in harmony and unified support, but the reality involves a quarterback carousel and the destruction of any unity and clear direction the team could possibly have - typically at the detriment of both quarterbacks and everyone around them.

You keep making some irrational point that we should take a HUGE gamble in hoping Kizer pans out and ignore the best possible scenario to draft a franchise QB.

Kizer has shown next to nothing that would indicate that he will be a franchise QB. That doesn't mean he can't or won't be. However looking at the odds of success of a mid second round QB to become a franchise QB, you're fighting against the odds by a country mile. There's no logic in that.

Your delivery in your posts are eloquent and your word count on your posts are high. That doesn't change the fact that when looking at the odds, you're promoting an idea that has all the odds against you.

Let's look at the Patriots. They just got back everything they paid for JG. They lost nothing. That's our worst case scenario if both QB's pan out.

In your scenario? We passed on a franchise QB selection and Kizer flops. We had no plan and we spit in the face of the odds of success in the process.

Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. I certainly believe there will be improvement from Kizer. But it may be just enough to insure we don't get the opportunity to draft #1 again for a very long time. The oppotunity is now and the time is now.

Using excuses to take a shot in the dark that Kizer develops into a franchise QB defies sound logic.

Agreed.

Kizer could look like a hall of famer in the next 5 weeks, but we are still going to draft a QB in the first round in the draft. Whether it's Rosen or Darnold or Mayfield or Jackson, I'm quite confident one of these quarterbacks will be in a Browns uniform next season.

ANY draft selection is a crap shot- including QBs in first rnd...yes, Newton is good.....but, check this list beyond Browns- Gabbert, Manziel, Weeden, Manuel, Ponder, Tebow, Locker, Lynch, and the great Bortles-NUMBER 2 overall. Jags hold their breath every time he throws.

My point- we are not alone looking for QB- Jags, Denver, etc., etc. And the great John Elway took Lynch. Football guys taking football players.

We need to draft a QB and hope/ pray AGAIN.....GO Browns!!!!

I disagree. There are ways to handle that situation. You come out and say that this is Kizer's team in 2018. You come out and say the rookie isn't going to play until we think he's ready.

Now would Hue do that? I don't know. He seems to want to win now and I'm not sure he'd be up for it. Kzer shouldn't have been trotted out there week 1, but he did that anyway.

We will most likely end up with 2 picks in the top 8. despite what Gordon or Coleman does down the stretch I draft Sutton unless I get an OBJ in free agency. Duke Johnson is the only weapon we have that can be depended upon. Hue needs weapons for his system to work. Kizer needs weapons. He has had at the very least a dozen monster plays dropped, almost all would have been touchdowns.

Now the turnovers is the worrisome part but we have seen him progress. he has gone from 8 second drops to 4 second drops. its still not as quick as you would like but its vastly improved. He is being more protective in the redzone. I believe his feet over the last 3 weeks including the jags game, has never looked better.

Continue to develop kizer unless he implodes and then you can still take your Jimmy G or McCaron 2nd rounder. Develop your ace in the hole.

The message was sent to Kizer when the botched McCaron trade happened. what you are doing isnt good enough and we are actively looking to replace you not just short term in game situation but completely replace you by spending the equivalent of a mid first round pick to do so. Partying and failing isnt gonna cut it.

Anyway, Kizer fails, I go vet and spend a 2nd on another Qb. Kizer rocks and I still spend a 2nd on a QB.

Even if Hue declares Kizer the starter, he's going to be looking over his shoulder with the fans calling for the shiny new toy with every incompletion. A young 2nd year qb doesn't need that kind of pressure, and he also doesn't need to feel like he's just holding down the fort until the rookie is ready.

What I can't help envisioning is Hue saying that there will be a competition for the starting job, nobody laying clear claim to it and Kizer being thrown out there on a short leash. He gets yanked after a couple sub par performances and the new guy gets thrown in and doesn't do well either. Which brings us back to the same crappy state of Brown's qb controversy that we've been in since Couch/Holcomb.

If we take a qb #1, we better hope he takes and keeps the starting job from the outset. I'm really starting to lean toward sticking with Kizer, unless he really stinks it up these last 5 games.

Good points above.

I think adding 2 premium 1st round talents to the team goes further to fix the passing game then adding another QB.

Gotta create an environment for a QB to have success.

I'm good with weapons especially IF Kizer keeps making subtle improvements over these last weeks.

We've got NOBODY who scares ANYBODY outside of an unknown which is JG.

Yeah, five or six games where he doesn't totally suck will solve everything.

Yeah, I believe you are right. It shouldn't be like that but we are the Browns. If that is the case, then we should go option B. A FA QB and Kizer.

I’d rather have two good qb’s than none ... its not really that hard ....

Those that want to put all their eggs in ONE BASKET just don’t get it ...

1 + 1 = 2 is just way to complicated for some ...

J/C

Can anyone evision a scenario where the Browns do the following:

Draft a QB #1, sign a veteran mentor type seat holder, and then trade Kizer to the highest bidder?

This eliminates the aforementioned scenario where Kizer starts and plays just poorly enough for the desire to put the rookie in too soon. I don't know that I suggest this plan, just thinking it's a possibility. (With the Browns, anything is a possibility.)

I'd rather take the rookie, keep Kizer, sign a Vet, and dump Kessler & Hogan. JMHO

haha that totally made my morning. right or wrong it made me laugh 5 or 6 times already.

my friend, keeping Kizer is the same as keeping either Brandon Weeden or RG III.