DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer/Hue's 4 Game referendum ;)

This play is a good example of him locking onto his primary target. Wth more experience he might've read the tight coverage and let his eyes shift to the check down.

Disagree with you here.

Here's an image of the hi-lo concept at work in this play with the progressions:


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2024638-nfl-101-introducing-the-basic-route-combinations

His primary was likely Coleman. So if he was locked onto his 1st read he would have chucked it deep.
Gordon's crossing route was the next progression and Gordon was open. (the other TV angle gives a better view of Gordon being open). It was similar concept to Gordon's 1st catch of the say. Its hard because we know the outcome of the plays, but to assess the QB decision making process we have to pretend we don't know the outcome. We know that Gordon is going trip over Coleman's trailing CB. But at the time of the throw all Kizer know was that he throwing to an open receiver and that isn't locking on.

Locking on is when a QB waits for a covered receiver to get open so long that they miss the timing to throw to the next read.

I think a better example of Kizer getting stuck on his primary was early in the game when Gordo couldn't get open on a 'whip' route and Kizer never came of Gordon to see Crow in the flat wide open.

And to be clear, I am not saying that Kizer doesn't lock on to his primary at times; every QB does that at times. But, his game against the Packer's isn't the best tape to point out most of Kizer's flaws. There would be tons more flaws in any of Kizer's previous games.
Anyhow good convo. Gotta go.

Vers... when I talk about trading down, it means that we remain in the top 5. Its not a huge move and we can still get our guy. It depends on how the Browns evaluate and measure who is where on our board. I can easily see someone (NY Giants) who may want a particular player, offer us something really nice for a one position move. It would take shrewdness and savvy. But if they want their guy (and it is not our guy) then give us an offer( we would stipulate in the trade contract that it would have to only that person they wish to draft). I would take someone I want with #1 too.

As far for Rosen... he has a excellent ball. He is a good QB prospect. But there are also character questions about him that goes back to his freshman year.

You may be right, and I'm not arguing, but I believe his reads were center to left (since the check down is on the left) and he locked on Gordon, not Coleman. (I would have to go back and study the full play from other angles as well.)

Also, I'm not saying he did anything wrong, in fact he showed great anticipation and accuracy on the throw. I'm saying with experience, he may see that window as tight, and knowing the RB will (likely) be open in the flat, slide his view there and toss him the ball for a big gain.

In any case, thanks for sharing and taking the time for your explanations. Much appreciated!

J/C

Add this to the "The $&#^ is Hue Jackson doing?" list.

It's great to cherry pick plays to suit your agenda, but would you be willing to show a cut up of every long pass attempt Kizer has made to see just how much we can count on seeing that type of pass consistently? Because if memory serves me, we would see that far too often he is wildly inaccurate and not a dependable on those long throws.

Great post.

Honest. You can find certain plays to affirm something. But the big picture is far different than some hand picked examples. Or are you trying to say that's incorrect?

Because you're talking to fans that have watched every down this season. What you have been showing are outliers, not the typical QB play we've seen from Kizer.

I knew it was a lot from watching Browns games compared to other games. But didn't realize it was that much.

Did you read the OP?

What I have seen is that you promote the idea that Kizer goes through his progressions. If you call looking at two WR's or targets going through progressions, I believe you may have a point. Yet that's what is expected by spread QB's. That's not enough to cut it in the NFL. I've read the thread. I know what you're trying to promote. I know the impression you are trying to make and the way you wish to manipulate what you wish for people to believe about Kizer. Let's just say we disagree and by draft day, you'll see that this FO and coaching staff disagree with you also.

One thing that really frustrated me on this play was how many people complained it was underthrown. The issue wasn't the throw, it was Tretter and Zeitler being forced back six yards from the line of scrimmage. They've got a double, there is no way they should be getting pushed back so deep, which gave Kizer no pocket and flushed him in to finding space.

That missed PI call was disgusting. With that, Browns had a damn good chance to go up 21-7 at the half. There was clear and obvious contact prior to the ball getting there. Should have been ball at the 2.

Sure.

Only one with agenda seems to be you.

Read the OP.

Post what you like. Share your view on actual plays. No one is stopping you. Dispense with the empty needlessly adversarial rhetoric. Talk football, talk about the plays.

For someone that hasn't posted a play, that's an awful lot of work you're asking someone else to perform for you.

They don't seem to mind dong it when it suits their point of view. I've watched Kizer play all year. He's not a very accurate QB. He rarely makes any progression reads and when he does, it's to the second man. Just like the spread O in college requires.

Either people want to see the big picture or they don't. When you cherry pick things it only shows the point of view you want people to see. That's not rocket science and I believe anyone who has watched this team the entire season is fully aware of that.

You obviously don't, which is why you require someone to do hours of work to convince you otherwise.

Then it wouldn't be hard to post up a bunch of plays... right?

I'm not the one sitting here trying to paint a false narrative. I mean, do you guys watch the Browns? If you do, you already know.

You are the one trying to post a false narrative.

Now spend a few hours proving that you are not by posting analysis all of Kizer's plays.

See how that works?

This, right here. I am actually of the opinion that Kizer, in general, doesn't go through his progressions all that well and will tend to lock onto his first read... but I'll never criticize a poster that goes through the time and effort to post up a gif or video and break down what they see. Deputy, ed and others posting that stuff up and explaining it is much appreciated by me (and many others, I would assume).

Same here, good convo.

My math isn't great but that's about 20% of Kizer's passing attempts. Like, I was saying before this is a big ball passing game.

Having that high a percentage of downfield concepts is gonna have effects on the production numbers across the board.

Its a trade off of efficiency vs explosion.

I think you nailed it. That's way too many deep calls. 30/35% completed is really good in that area, and Kizer has also been struggling with hitting downfield passes, so that only makes it worse. It really is you-know-what into the wind.

In my opinion, Jackson has done a poor job in terms of adapting his designs to suit the strengths of his quarterback.

This is only made worse by our struggles with receivers. Coleman and Gordon are our only truth threats, but Coleman missed most of training camp/the season and Kizer/Gordon are only in week four of practicing together. It should come as a surprise that their chemistry is off.

It's a confusing situation. To Hue's credit, he's dealt with a lot of losing/long situations in which the ball needs to be forced downfield, but he has to better balance out the offense.

Hmmmm..........could you enlighten us as to exactly what Kizer's strengths are?

Reading defenses?

Throwing w/anticipation?

Making good post-snap reads?

Going through his progressions?

Making hot reads?

Making sight adjustments?

Seeing the field?

Displaying very good accuracy?

Game manager?

Look, I think I have been very fair regarding Kizer. I think he can end up being good. But, his biggest attributes are his arm strength and size.

I just don't like the soccer mom mentality of "my boy could be so great if only the coach knew what he was doing."

I think there are people who are too anti-Kizer and people who are too pro-Kizer.

You assume correctly...

Are you two agreeing that Kizer is reading coverages and quickly going through his progressions? Are you two saying that he doesn't hold the ball too long and doesn't lock onto receivers? Are you saying he sees the field well?

Just wondering.........

Hue was in a tough spot though. Trying to manufacture offense without receivers. It take a well disciplined team to move the ball and score by taking little chunks all the way down the field.

Some defensive coordinators whole strategy involves forcing the offenses to execute a ton of plays and wait for them to screw up.

In the grand/big picture strategy hitting on a low % efficiency chunk yardage play may better then stringing together many low yardage higher efficiency plays.

But that strategy is much more difficult for the QB to execute and it will reflect in the stats.

This play is an example of the vertical focus of Hue's playcalling. It's a vertical concept called verts, all-go or 999.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2024638-nfl-101-introducing-the-basic-route-combinations



Looks like they got 2-deep man coverage.
Here it looks like Kizer get's locked onto #1 receiver closet to the (L) sideline. And that draws the safety.
Kizer should be reading the S to make his decision and the movement of the S to the sideline should be the indicator to come off that read because both of the vertical routes to that side are taken away by the S.

His next progression is should most likely be the TE running the over route and its a good match-up with Njoku.

This is a decision i'm sure Kizer wishes he had back.

Browns' John Dorsey reveals Chiefs had DeShone Kizer as No. 4 QB in 2017 draft; he's seen Baker Mayfield 6 times

Updated 4:18 PM; Posted 2:58 PM

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/12/browns_john_dorsey_says_chiefs.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns GM John Dorsey revealed Wednesday that the Chiefs had DeShone Kizer fourth among quarterbacks in the 2017 draft, and believes he'll get better.

He's already, however, given his scouts an assignment to rank the top 12 quarterbacks in the deep 2018 class, and acknowledged "there are some positive and legitimate prospects here that would make any Browns fan happy if we went in that direction,'' he said Wednesday on the club's in-house Cleveland Browns Daily radio show.

He also told Peter King of Monday Morning Quarterback that he's watched Heisman Trophy winner Baker Mayfield six times this season.

The 0-13 Browns will likely have the No. 1 pick in the draft, as well as a top-10 pick from their trade with Houston.

When Dorsey was GM of the Chiefs in April, Kansas City traded above the Browns and drafted quarterback Patrick Mahomes at No. 10. Browns coach Hue Jackson liked Mahomes, and may have pushed for him at No. 12. Like the Chiefs, the Browns had Kizer ranked No. 4 among the 2017 QBs, with Mitch Trubisky, Mahomes and Deshaun Watson ahead of him.

Dorsey liked some things about Kizer a year ago, and was encouraged by some of what he saw during Sunday's 27-21 overtime loss to the Packers.

"He played big-time football,'' said Dorsey. "He had the physical skillset you could see could transfer into the National Football League. Now the one thing people don't realize (was) how young he is (21). He was very young coming into the draft process. (But) he had a degree of maturity about his person that a normal 20, 21-year old person did not have.

"When I was in Kansas City we brought in seven quarterbacks and he did a wonderful job answering the questions. When they actually sat him down and began to do the terminology, the technical aspects of football, the coaching staff walked away pretty impressed with him.''

Dorsey acknowledged Kizer has "still got a lot of work to do. He has some mechanical things he's got to work with, but I like the growth. I thought last week, you take four or five plays out of there, he played pretty good.''

Dorsey sat with a distraught Kizer after the game, and offered some words of encouragement.

"When you have a young guy in a moment like that, you explain to him, 'I've played the game, and I know that feeling,'" he said. "And 'if you're going to be the quarterback of this team and project yourself as a leader, sometimes feel that pain and remember your mistakes and let's try to correct those mistakes. Just remember, it's not one person, it's all of us in this together.'

"I just tried to give him uplifting spirit. 'Let's be real here now, there were some things there you made mistakes with, but you can get better.' That's kind of all I said."

Dorsey was asked by Cleveland Browns Daily about his admission to King that he's seen Mayfield six times this season. But he wouldn't say if Mayfield is his top QB.

He then revealed one of his first directives to his newly-inherited scouts.

"What I've done is I've taken the college scouts who were in town this week, I had them do an exercise,'' he said. "I said 'take the top 12 quarterbacks in the draft, and I want you to watch them as a group and talk about them and let me see what your rankings are in like two days.'"

"I wanted to get a feel for not only their ability to scout but also to see and feel what these QBs are."

He was quick to note that he hasn't decided yet if the Browns will go QB with their top pick -- but it's almost a foregone conclusion, given that Kizer still has a long way to go.

He's already gone on record with King with how he feels about Mayfield.

"I want to be able to project and articulate my opinion when the time comes and it matters," Dorsey said. "I saw [Mayfield] at Kansas this year, in the OU-Kansas game. You're darn right he's a good quarterback, no matter how tall he is. Some would say he's too short, but I would ask you: How tall is Russell Wilson? How tall is Chase Daniel?"


So will he draft the Oklahoma product, who at 6-0 1/4 is below Jackson's threshold of 6-2?

"I'll take the best available player,'' he said, in true GM fashion.

I am liking what I hear from Dorsey. Maybe it is homerism, but I liked how he actually took the time to sit down w/Kizer.

I think the answer to those questions is yes........some of the time. he also shows a strong and accurate arm some of the time. when he begins doing those things most of the time we will have a pretty good qb on our hands.

6'0" QB is not my first choice

I have a question for you (and anyone else who cares to chime in) in regards to the criticism of Kizer that he isn't progressing through his reads... now it's also said that Hue's offense is one that has a lot of slow developing plays. Does this help, hurt, or shouldn't impact at all, Kizer working through his progressions?

My initial thought is that it would hurt it. Taking the play he hit Gordon on where the WR's cleared out the safeties leaving Gordon in single coverage coming across the field, kind of at that 45 degree angle.

Am I correct in assuming that in a play like that Gordon is the Primary receiver that Kizer ideally wants to hit? And if he is, and Gordon is not clear, where does that leave Kizer? His other WR's are already at or beyond his range.

I understand in a play like that the importance of Kizer correctly reading the S and making his decision accordingly, but is that the same thing as "reading his progression"?

To me when I hear "progression" I picture Kizer hitting the top of his drop back, sees #1 got jammed off his route, the flow of the play design brings his eyes to #2 who he sees ended up drawing the S help, and then to #3 his check down.

I don't know how much of that made sense, but I guess simply what I'm curious hear is whether you guys think Hue's offense is one that helps, hinders, or has negligible impact on a young QB going through his progressions.

Thanks!

My problem with Kizer is not so much with the nuance between pass plays, it the game losing plays that happen too often when the game is in question.

Red zone turnovers and 4th quarter / OT turnovers have cost the team several wins.

Ball security is everything, as Marty would say.

This is where you would hope experience helps Kizer.

Awesome post. Thanks for the continued detail you're putting in.

On the broadcast, I was upset with Kizer for going to Coleman instead of Higgins, but the All-22 showed that HaHa Clinton-Dix did a really nice job of positioning himself between the two and could have made a play on either.

Ideally, I would like to see that concept have Higgins work back towards the middle of the field sooner to avoid giving the safety the chance to centerfield the routes. I don't know if that was by poor design or if Higgins ran a poor route, but it didn't force Clinton-Dix in to a situation in which he needed to choose, which would make the read easier on Kizer.

Agreed that he should have worked back to Njoku on that one. Browns had a time out, and a completed pass gets up around the 35 with, I don't know, we'll say 17/18 second left on the clock. Certainly a better position to be than a turnover. That's read three, and he's not consistently getting there enough at this stage.

I sometimes worry if Kizer is locking on to Coleman and Gordon too much at times. I understand the desire to get playmakers involved, but he's still struggling to take what he's given and certainly hurts himself with too many wasted opportunities by looking for the hero ball.

With that said, I am okay with taking a shot with 20 seconds left in the half and a 7 point lead, so the above is certainly a 'perfect world' type of scenario, but that's the kind of play that can separate him. He needs to start getting those if he is going to be this team's future.

Me 2.

I really think Dorsey sees the lack of Vets on this team. I'm talking 25 and 26 year old Vets. 2nd contract guys.

And QB is #1. Our QB room with Kizer, Kessler and Hogan is pathetically young and inexperienced. You're NOT winning with that make up.

REALLY curious to see what Vet QB we bring in here. Could it be Mccarron and his knowledge of Jackson's Offense? And if it is, does that say that Dorsey really is behind Hue?

I also gotta believe Dorsey sees our Safeties and Corners playing so damn deep, he understands WHY and will target Secondary in FA and Draft.

Be interesting to see if we target one of the Top 2 CBs in FA. That's EXACTLY what I would do and target another CB HIGH in round 2. Top 35 or so. We've also got Wilson coming back.

And I KEY IN on Minkah-Fitzpatrick with Houston's pick. Possibly Derwin James if Fitz is gone.

That right there transcends this Defense to the next level. Tighten up these CBs and get Peppers closer to the LOS.

Get Rosen or Darnold at #1 and with the Top pick in Round 3 we can still find that RB, WR and LB with that pick and our 2 other 2's.

Damn man, Dorsey has GOT to be salivating at what we have at our disposal in both Draft Picks and Cap Space.

I'm feeling that Haslam is ready to make the moves NOW.

IT'S GO TIME!

The more I think about this, the more POSITIVE I am that we CANNOT pass on Rosen or Darnold.

We can't afford to yet again pass on QB'S that end up playing well and making us look like FOOLS. You know the list of names.

It's GOTTA be Rosen or Darnold. Mayfield and Jackson just don't compare to these 2.

me and you both my friend.