DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Sashi Brown fired

I am not whining, you are.

We would have taken a QB this year. It's stupid to think we weren't. How do you know we weren't?


You are the one backing horses my man. You are the one making this a I won and you lost deal....just shut up with that stuff. I root for my team, not some lame coach or lame front office person.

We now have the football guy many wanted. I am glad he is here. Seems like a great hire. We should have won at least 3-4 games this year, so now that we have our football guy, Hue should be able to manage 7-8 wins next year. Anything less and he needs to be fired. You do understand his record is bad in the terms of epic proportions don't you?


No, I guess not. The way you stick up for the guy, he should be in the HOF for what he has done here.

Look, I am not trying to bust your chops here, I am just saying that Hue Jackon best start proving something on the field, not just in the owners office.

Oh...let me add, I will find it very concerning if we win 2 of our last 4 games. That means the players are giving more for the new GM than they gave the coach, or the coach is trying harder with a new GM in place.

Either way, it's not a good look.

Peen I’m a huge hue supporter, but I agree with you.

The magic number next year is 7.

I doubt that the FO change will have any effect on the players performance on the field. The coach on the other hand...

I agree, it's about winning games, and Hue is seriously void of wins in Cleveland. I would have won 2 games to this point because I would have run the ball, and run it more, and I am not a football coach.

I don't buy this stacking the box BS. I see that as opportunity. We have a good line...when a back finds a crease in a stacked box, he is off to the races. Barry Sanders faced stacked boxes all the time. His coach had a good line and fed him the ball. I am not comparing our backs to Sanders, but they deserve more than 10-12 touches a game while Flattop is chucking it all over the field, unless of course he fumbles the ball before he chucks it away. Add in goofy sideline calls, and it is what it is.


Good head coaches find a way. Bad one's seek excuses.

You are so biased and full of crap! You constantly talk out of your ass w/your biased takes.

I'm done w/your garbage. Keep hoping Hue fails. It's productive!

https://twitter.com/mlombardiNFL/status/939576837931274240

Imagine being part of the search for the person who is going to replace you. Oof.

LOl....I don't hope Hue fails.....I am pretty sure he will coach himself out of a job. If not, great!!!!

yea.. thats grimey.

Legit question. Is that the way you read that? I read it earlier and it wasn't very clear. I wish I knew more, but w/out more..........I read it as Sashi was perhaps searching for a football guy to assist him in the FO and then was fired instead.

I'm not sure about that. But, it doesn't make sense for Sashi to be part of a search for his replacement.

If anyone would have paid attention to the press conference,they would know thw answer.
Haslem stated that they,including Sashi,went looking to add an experienced football man to the FO.
Between then and now something changed.Sashi is gone and that experienced voice they were seeking is now the GM.

Cleveland Browns: Nothing is ever Hue Jackson’s fault

by Peter Smith 1 day ago

https://nflspinzone.com/2017/12/08/cleveland-browns-never-hue-jackson-fault/

Hue Jackson can’t win a game, but managed to secure a victory in the blame game with the Cleveland Browns for the second year in a row, now getting Sashi Brown fired.

Jimmy Haslam has decided to fire Executive Vice President of Operations Sashi Brown after a year of turmoil between he and head coach Hue Jackson. According to a report by Mary Kay Cabot, the two hadn’t been on speaking terms for basically a month, which tracks back to the A.J. McCarron debacle.

Any number of national outlets are reporting that Haslam has been looking into finding a general manager to replace Brown for weeks. This also likely coincides with the failed McCarron trade.

Basically, Brown was fired for saving the team from giving up a second and third round pick for a journeyman quarterback, all while being asked to believe that the coach, the only connection to McCarron, wasn’t behind it.

Much of this year, Jackson has struggled to hide his contempt for Brown in public while “sources” that all logically trace back to Jackson have been crushing Brown in behind the scenes Jackson would have people believe that leaks aren’t who he is and that the Browns organization is where the leaks come from.

Jackson, not done yet, also tried to make the case that he didn’t hire an offensive coordinator because the offense wasn’t good enough and didn’t want that newly hired coordinator taking the blame for it. This assumes that people fail to realize that coaching hires are done before free agency and the draft, while also telling the locker room that can listen to or read these comments, they aren’t good enough. Well played.

So Jackson is now hanging a carrot out there that he’ll hire an offensive coordinator, something he needed to do two years ago. And while people may think this could lead to an inspired hire and really make the offense better, bringing in a new face to add to this team, Jackson isn’t that progressive and will instead recycle the 70-year old Al Saunders, the current wide receivers coach and Jackson’s former offensive coordinator when he was the head coach of the Oakland Raiders.

Jackson has a bad habit of never thinking ahead and doing everything in the moment. He never thinks ahead, so he’s taking a flamethrower to everyone in the organization, players, ownership and everyone else, while humbly suggesting he needs to do a better job.

You’re 1-27, Hue. Are you sure this isn’t working yet?

Let’s assume that Hue was willing to reach out to a young play caller or a great general manager. He’s got a track record for torching anyone he doesn’t like, so now he’s going try to tell them…well, I won’t do that to you. This is exactly what got him fired from Oakland when he was 8-8, so he’s going to be stuck with Saunders.

Last year, Jackson put the blame on Ray Horton after going 1-15. Horton did a better job with his side of the ball than Jackson did with his, but Horton was fired and Gregg Williams was brought in to replace him.

This year, Jackson is trying to make the case that Sashi Brown and company couldn’t give him enough players to win. Evidently, adding players like Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah, Larry Ogunjobi, Derrick Kindred, Corey Coleman, David Njoku, Shon Coleman, J.C. Tretter, Kevin Zeitler, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Jason McCourty, Jamar Taylor and Jamie Collins just aren’t good enough to get one win this season.

Hue Jackson is fantastic at blaming people. He’s just not good at winning football games, having just one so far in 28 tries. This is a worse mark than the John McKay led Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they were an expansion team that predated free agency. Firing Sashi Brown is questionable enough, but retaining Hue Jackson potentially for another season is the type of unmitigated disaster that will be its own chapter in Cleveland Browns lore.

I see why this dude writes for something named "spinzone." LOL

I know that some of you don't like me. I understand this will be ridiculed by you guys. That's fine.

However, there are others who respect my analysis and this is for you guys.

A big deal was made out of getting players that fit your system. It was said as an insult. I do think coaches should adjust their game plans and schemes to fit their talent, but guys.............this is nothing new.

Guess what all of New England's GMs who have worked w/BB have in common? The answer is that they get the kind of players that Bill wants. They get guys that fit their system and culture.

Guess what kinds of players the Steelers' GM get? Guys that fit the system and culture of the team.

Guess what kind of players that Spielman get Zimmer in Minni? Guys that fit his system and culture.

It's not out of the ordinary. It's not a negative like this author and the Hue Haters on this site will claim it is.

Instead, it's intelligent. It makes sense.

I think it is a positive that we apparently have a HC and GM who want to work together. I don't think Hue should select the players. I don't think Dorsey should cut productive players to save money. I say let both men do their jobs.

And more importantly, I think that the GM puts the HC into the best possible situation. He gets the input of what the HC wants in his players and what positions he needs. He then goes out and acquires those players.

That isn't an indictment on Hue, just as it isn't an indictment on Bill Belichick. It isn't an indictment on Dorsey. Instead, it is a good sign that we finally have a GM who actually wants to work w/his HC.

Things are looking up in Cleveland. Enjoy the ride, folks.

When you're lying flat on your back at 0-fer, up is the natural direction to look. The record literally can't get any worse.

I signed up for the roller coaster, though, so this wasn't entirely unexpected. Sadly, Jimmy signed up, stood in line, but then weaseled out before the fun part started. Hopefully Hue and Dorsey can still pay this thing off.

don't know if this has been posted or not yet so here goes.

Cleveland Browns: How it went wrong for Sashi Brown - Terry's Talkin'

Updated 9:37 AM; Posted 4:25 AM
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Gallery: Cleveland Browns introduce new GM John Dorsey, December 8, 2017
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By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer terrypluto2003@yahoo.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- For a least a week before he was fired, vice president Sashi Brown sensed he was in trouble with ownership.

He knew owner Jimmy Haslam was looking to add an experienced football man to the personnel department. When it was learned Haslam was targeting John Dorsey, it was obvious the former Kansas City Chiefs general manager would not be coming to Berea to work for Brown.

Early in the season, coach Hue Jackson was making it clear in press conferences that the roster was too young to have any real success. Jackson consistently distanced himself from the front office. Stories appeared about how he didn't favor some of the top picks and moves made by Brown.

It was the most public split between a coach and Browns front office that I've ever seen during a season -- most of it coming from Jackson.

Dee and Jimmy Haslam were more sympathetic to the plight of the coach than the front office's long-term plans.

Jackson denies there was any "power struggle," but there certainly was a battle for who'd have the most influence with ownership. Jackson prevailed as Haslam insisted he be given another year as coach when Dorsey was hired.

Brown inherited a team with a 3-13 record. It had the NFL's highest-paid defense, yet ranked 27th in that category. The franchise needed lots of young players and picks to rebuild the roster. An argument can be made that Brown allowed too many veterans to leave via free agency. But the main concern with hiring Dorsey was to draft better.


ADVERTISING


After being unfairly fired following a 47-21 record in Kansas City, Dorsey is anxious to run a team. He is willing to try to make it work with Jackson because of all the assets available to improve the team.

Thanks to Brown, the team has five picks in the first two rounds of the 2018 draft. They also have more than $100 million in salary cap space.

"Any personnel man worth his weight would be excited," said Dorsey. "Sashi did a great job creating some draft picks and some salary cap space. ... To me, this is an opportunity that not many personnel guys in my position would pass up."

CARSON WENTZ/COREY COLEMAN

Also haunting Brown was the continued success and ascension of Carson Wentz. It's doubtful even Philadelphia expected Wentz to become an MVP candidate in his second NFL season.

But the Eagles were willing to make a major trade with the Browns, moving up from No. 8 to No. 2 to grab Wentz. The Browns traded down again to No. 15.

The Browns piled up the picks. The Eagles picked Wentz.

Making it look even worse was chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta telling ESPN's Tony Grossi that none of the quarterbacks available to the Browns in the 2016 Browns would be considered in the top 20 in the NFL.


Some key points:

1. The player picked at No. 15 by the Browns in 2016 -- Baylor receiver Corey Coleman -- was the first receiver selected. Coleman broke a hand in each of the last two seasons. He has caught only 48 passes in 15 games, four for touchdowns.

2. Coleman is only 23. Receivers sometimes need a few years to develop. Injuries have plagued him. His struggles combined with the rise of Wentz in Philadelphia led to major doubts from ownership.

3. If Coleman had the look of a Pro Bowl receiver, Brown would be viewed far more favorably.

4. Here are the other players who came to the Browns in those 2016 draft deals: Shon Coleman, Cody Kessler, Ricardo Louis, Derrick Kindred, Spencer Drango, Jordan Payton and DeShone Kizer.

5. It's not a bust because Shon Coleman and Kindred have helped as starters. Drango will likely have a long career on the offensive line. A player I really like for the 2016 draft is Emmanuel Ogbah, a defensive end very good against the run.

6. As for Kizer and Kessler, who knows? It would be a mistake to write off Kizer.

7. But the front office missed on the elusive franchise quarterback. That's a tough thing to overcome, especially when no one in the front office has a long track record of draft success.


DESHAUN WATSON/JABRILL PEPPERS

1. In 2017, the Browns coaches and front office agreed on the selection of Myles Garrett with the No. 1 pick rather than quarterback Mitchell Trubisky.

2. Unlike Coleman, Garrett is a superb physical specimen. He has dealt with ankle issues and a concussion. But he is a Pro Bowl talent when on the field. Garrett leads the team with 5.0 sacks, playing only seven games.

3. Trubisky could turn out to be an excellent quarterback. The rookie struggles of Jared Goff followed up by his tremendous sophomore season shows it's unwise to make snap judgments about first-year quarterbacks -- especially high picks.

4. But the decision to pass up Trubisky for Garrett appears to be the correct one. Brown receives zero credit for that. He could easily have traded down, but refused to do so.

5. The Browns had a chance to pick Clemson quarterback Deshaun Watson at No. 12. Jackson favored Ohio State defensive back Malik Hooker. Instead, the Browns traded down to No. 25, picking up Jabrill Peppers. The Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year has had problems adapting to deep free safety in the Gregg Williams defense.

6. With Houston, Watson was having a super rookie season when he suffered a major knee injury after seven games. Perhaps Peppers will become an impact player next season.


7. The Browns also have Houston's 2018 first-round pick, and that could be very viable. So it's unfair to close the book on this trade.

8. I think David Njoku has a chance to be an impact player in this era where tight ends are important pass catchers. Brown traded up into the first round to get him.

9. Hurting the front office is that other than Garrett, none of the rookies picked in the last two drafts has shown a star quality. Several players could turn into solid starters. But for a team with a 1-27 record, every draft pick is studied. Fans and media are desperate for instant results.

10. Finally, I look at this roster and still think it should be better than 1-27 in the last two years. Not all of the issues are the fault of Brown.

ABOUT KENNY BRITT

John Dorsey will be remembered for his first move as Browns general manager -- cutting WR Kenny Britt. It was easy for Dorsey to do ... he didn't sign Britt to a four-year, $32 million deal.

Britt had $10 million guaranteed. He caught 18 passes for 233 yards. He had minor injuries. He seemed to sulk.

A month into the season, it was obvious the signing of Britt was a mistake. When the NFL trading deadline passed at the end of October, Britt should have been cut.


I like the analytics approach, so this is not about picking on Brown. But in the case of Britt, the analytics failed. He was highly rated by Football Outsiders and other analytics sites because Britt caught 68 passes for 1,002 yards last season. That was with the Rams, when quarterbacks Case Keenum and Goff were both having miserable years.

The 29-year-old Britt had never played for a very good quarterback in any of his eight seasons before joining the Browns. So the projection was Britt could be productive in Cleveland, even with its quarterback problems.

But Britt cashed his bonus check and then seemed to check out of trying to help the Browns win.

Dorsey knew the coaches wanted Britt gone. He had no connection to Britt. So it was a smart and simple decision.

The Browns did sign three other free agents who have helped: Kevin Zeitler, JC Tretter and Jason McCourty.

ABOUT QUARTERBACKS

Part of what made Dorsey a success in Kansas City was his partnership with Andy Reid, one the NFL's best coaches. Reid has coached 19 years with Philadelphia and Kansas City with only three losing seasons.

When Dorsey joined him with the Chiefs in 2013, Reid arrived from Philadelphia with a 130-93 record and nine playoff appearances in 14 seasons. Dorsey said the Chiefs had a huge need for a quarterback. They'd had seven starters in the previous five seasons. He targeted veteran Alex Smith, making a deal for him.


"Alex's mannerisms and mindset were the same as the head coach," said Dorsey. "That was really interesting. You want guys that are natural leaders ... guys with an understanding of the game of football."

Smith does not lose games with turnovers. In five years with the Chiefs, he has a 47-26 record ... 99 TDs compared to 32 interceptions.

It's a safe guess Dorsey will take the same quarterback route with his new team. It could be Smith or another veteran. The idea would be to blend the quarterback with the coach. Smith may be available after the season.

Despite the success with Smith, Kansas City traded up to the No. 10 spot to draft quarterback Patrick Mahomes in 2017. Dorsey gave up picks No. 27 and 91 in 2017 along with a 2018 first-rounder. The last time Kansas City drafted a quarterback in the first round was Todd Blackledge in 1983.

I expect Dorsey to both draft a quarterback high and trade for a veteran. He knows the missed opportunities for quarterbacks in Cleveland and he doesn't want to add to that list in 2018.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/12/cleveland_browns_sashi_brown_john_dorsey.html

We need a QB to step up

Right after that draft, there was a thread in the NFL draft forum where Pit claimed that Sashi would be judged based on how well Wentz played. He was attacked by many of the same guys who are still defending Sashi. I didn't want Wentz, but I had to agree w/Pit on that thread.

Turns out, Pit was right. Gotta give him kudos for correctly calling the situation and while I won't name names, you guys can probably guess the posters who were ripping him a new one.

I do believe you are correct. It has to be kicking Jimmy in the @!# sack everytime Wentz wins another game.

I was completely wrong on Wentz myself. If I remember right, I said he was not even a 1st round pick...

To a certain degree, I agree with you.

However, I think there's a difference in believing you feel that it's a step in the right direction verses being sold on someone.

As you are, I'm not sold on Dorsey. I mean the proof is in the pudding. We've seen how this movie ends far too many times.

I do certainly feel that having someone with a pedigree in scouting and drafting is a step in the right direction. I believe his qualifications speak volumes over the person he replaced.

That doesn't mean I have faith that he will be some kind of savior. But it does give me a sense that he could easily be a step in the right direction.

The bottom line for me is that it's Dorsey > Sashi.

Time will tell, and we may never be able to tell. Dorsey is walking in to the situation Sashi built.


But as far as football experience, I agree, Dorsey is better.

Dorsey sounds like a football guy.

Sashi Brown definitely passed on Wentz because he knew he couldn't last a full season. . .

I think sashi got a bum deal, but in the end I am good with Dorsey.

It is evident that Sashi and Hue could no longer work together, that's the bottom line, the reasons don't really matter at this point.

I agree with something Vers said. Even though I am not a big Hue Jackson fan, the impact to the actual team and it's ability to play the game would be impacted more had we changed the coach.

I think Sashi got completely screwed by Hue's inability to coach. There will be some solid success from what Sashi has created. They got rid of the wrong guy!!!

Maybe so.

After reading some comments and thinking about it in my own time, it is probably best for this team to stick with Hue for next year, or at least some portion of next year.

I see it this way. We have wizzed away the career of Joe T. Maybe keeping Hue turns out to be a wasted year. I don't deny that could be a possibility. On the other hand, if it is ready to start clicking next year, it's going to probably click better with the same coach and coaches. We are either miles away, or just a few yards away.

I am willing to see if it is just a few yards away.

j/c

I see the answer as a simple one. Each time we have hired a GM or someone who fills a similar role, their job was to fix the QB position. Always has been.

We see Wentz in Philly. We see JG in San Fransisco. We see a botched trade with Cincy which turned into a PR nightmare. And last but not least, we see Kizer here.

Sashi ended up with the McCarron fiasco. It made the Browns look like the Keystone Cops. I believe that was the final straw.

Sashi deserves a medal for not trading a 2nd and 3rd rounder for AJ McCarron.

I thought Haslam's comments on the McCarron fiasco were interesting. He blamed himself for the failed trade. He said he asked too many questions and took up too much of Sashi's time.

Basically, he said the trade was missed because he didn't allow Sashi to put it through in time.

Now, who knows if he was just falling on the sword to be a nice guy, but I think we all know that attempted trade was a Jackson move, and almost certainly a horrible one.

Who knows. Might have taken the blame. Might not. I doubt we'll ever actually get the truth. There is probably a shade of truth to what everyone has said.

All I know: A 2nd and 3rd was a disturbing quantity of selections to forego for McCarron.

j/c:

I have never cared much for AJ McCarron. I am glad the trade did not go through, but it was yet another embarrassment for this organization.

I will say this......none of us know whether or not AJ will be a good, bad, or mediocre qb. Yet, many posters are proclaiming not obtaining him as some great victory. Of course, many posters told us over and over and over how terrible Jimmy G was. He's just a backup qb. He isn't worth that much. Well........reality is telling us a different story.

We all know that if Jimmy G and AJ are playing well, most of the same posters who have trashed them will be telling us how much they wanted us to trade for them. LOL

All that matters is Hue was willing to trade a ridiculously high 2nd Rd AND 3rd Rd draft pick just a few weeks ago for AJ McCarron. That speaks for itself. Hue was willing to give up more for AJ than JG was worth.

Just how well is AJ playing Vers?

..... To be a lawyer and never sniff being a talent evaluator.

He traded a 1st and a 2nd for Palmer,back in the day....

QB Whisperer they say....

Yeah, I'm not a fan of either of those moves. It's pretty damn clear to me that he just wants to throw Marvin Lewis a bone (or a couple of them) while getting QB's that he has worked with in the past (that somebody else scouted and acquired).

Agreed. This draft MUST be productive and the results need to show on the field in 2018. I am very happy that Dorsey will be in charge of this draft.