DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is hue gone part 2 ...

And I expect Dorsey/FO will do just that recognizing that it will take more than one season to hit the goal. It will now be up to Hue and his staff to translate that onto the field...

Sashi wasn't fired because he might succeed, he was fired because he failed miserably. You need talent to win games, Sashi failed at getting talent. 49ers won 5 in a row after getting talent at the QB position.

Honest question... and only barring a massive disaster in the draft/offseason... does this put Hue on the hot seat at the start of next season?

Hue Jackson is on the hot seat as long as John Dorsey is the general manager. If we stink at all he will be a very easy scapegoat.

Hue went on an email blitz to get his only job security fired. The new sheriff in town won't want to be attached to a losing coach for very long.

I expect that Hue is on a short leash...

How long are you guys going to cry, whine, and complain?

Good God!

I don't think Haslam has any idea how to run a football franchise. Hue and Sashi were what, the Haslams' 4th head coach and 4th GM? I've lost count and we're only 5 years in, but in any case, it's not like they were holdovers from the previous regime.

Sashi and Hue will most likely go down as the worst GM/HC combination in NFL history. This is how you get to 1-31 in a league that has so many mechanisms to promote parity. They were both terrible. The roster is not very good and that is not Hue's fault, but it is not 1-31 bad.

Even the 1999 expansion Browns won games. These were not the expansion Jaguars/Panthers, both of whom made their conference championship games in their second season with their generous expansion deals. We're talking Chris Palmer and the utterly depleted 99-00 expansion Browns winning 5 games over 2 seasons!

Hue Jackson is the embodiment of the Peter principle-- good football coach, but not NFL head coach material. Expect a third straight disastrous season and then Dorsey will bring in his own guy.

Why even keep Jackson now? Besides the reality that Jimmy 'Jack the rebate' Haslam has no idea how to run a football franchise, I'll offer another factor that I haven't seen discussed here:

Hue's contract.

Rewind back to the 2016 off-season, and Hue was an attractive candidate. The Browns were not an attractive job. So what did it take to actually get Jackson here? The contract details were (to my knowledge) never made public, but there has been speculation that it took a guaranteed six year deal in the mold of what Kyle Shanahan got from the 49ers to lure Hue here. I also read that it was a 5 year deal, with an option for the 5th year (unclear which party had the option, but given the circumstances I'd have to imagine that it was Hue's option and not the team's.)

Factor in declining NFL revenues due to too many commericals, confusing rule changes, snobby entitled players, etc., and I suspect Jimmy just doesn't want to pay Hue for 3-4 years not to coach. That would be bad for Jimmy's bottom line, though it won't be much comfort for season ticket holders if we're in the running for the #1 overall pick again in 2019.

It will have to be at least 2-3. 0-4 he is gone. It won't go 5 games.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on some key points my friend. I think Hue had 100% to do with the QB room.. between the Drafts and who we retained/released. There's just too much out there that points to Jimmy and Sashi viewing Hue as the go to guy when it came to QBs.


Sashi's biggest set back in not being more experienced in football player (QB) evaluation was that he didn't know enough to see when he should trust Hue or tell him to go pound sand.

From DAY 1 Hue knew what the plan was, and knew what it was going to cost. And given the trust and faith Jimmy and Sashi placed in Hue to identify the right QB, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the plan was taking a QB like Wentz IF Hue said pull the trigger


So when it comes to Pick #2 and Hue says "No" to Wentz, Sashi's job is then to turn that pick in to something that will greatly improve the team.. which he did.

HUE JACKSON was the football guy all you guys keep saying we didn't have. The system Sashi and DePo were trying to build was a system where they could identify talented players from a broader pool of players (like Devalve) and to take some of the guesswork out of talent evaluation by trying to quantify as many as aspects as they could.

What defensive system does Sashi prefer? 4-3, 3-4? What about the style of offense he wanted?

IIRC correctly he's never said.

So this crap about Hue not getting the players he wanted or needed is just that, crap. Sashi didn't bring in a crop of players two years in a row that ran counter to the system Hue or even Williams wanted to run. And these guys don't look like a hodge podge of random players.

Anyone who actually paid attention can clearly see the themes and consistency in the types of players we acquired during his time (except the WRs... they couldn't catch consistently).

And a person doesn't have to agree with the plan to see that there was a plan.

Hue has literally done nothing to build on after 2 seasons here. Yet you and others say that Dorsey is needed to finish what was started (by Sashi). If Hue was fired today, not a single person would say the next coach had an opportunity to finish what Hue started. That difference alone should be telling of which one should have been shown the door (assuming you didn't give both the boot).

Agreed, Double D. Very well said...

Sashi got fired. He is not coming back.

Hue is here. If you hate him that much, go root for Buffalo.

An old school franchise (one of two to vote against the Browns moving) with a blue collar fan base that just broke what was the longest playoff drought in the NFL... I could probably do that

BTW I don't hate Hue. I just think he was out of his league, as was Sashi, as are the Haslams. 1-31 was a total team effort.

That's exactly where I'm at. Sashi earned his way out of here, do did Hue. Just what type of continuity do we want? What exactly has Hue done well to retain his job? Now we're going to trust him to whisper up a new crop of draft picks. I hope like hell we don't have continuity in that respect, or in his game management.

So it's alright when an article like that is released after Sashi is fired because "that's how it supposed to be done" but when it happens before he got fired it's "crap against the wall."

Got it. Thank you for the clarification.

JUST ONE PROBLEM...according to the article I read on the previous page, Hue wanted Wentz and was overruled by Sashi and Depo.



link

Hue Jackson preferred Carson Wentz over Jared Goff in '16 draft, sources say



DevilDawg..you might want to read this article and rethink your viewpoint.

Sashi might still be here if Hue Jackson had control over the roster. When Haslam handed that kind of power to Sashi, the top guy in his front office...BUT, the guy who had the least amount football experience...that made NO SENSE!

Haslam setup a management system that was going to fail if it did not produce and Moneyball produced 1 win in 2 years..not good enough.Sashi had control over the roster and personnel.

If only Sashi had drafted Wentz instead of trading down...

His odds of making it through 2018 alive are a lot better than still having a job week 6 of the season though.

I'm sure that you know that both men reported to Haslam. There's no need to pretend to be dense about that. At least I hope you're pretending.

Therefore Haslam knew how each man felt about issues, draft picks and players on the team. Unless of course you think they were discussing craft beers.

Here's what's crap against the wall. Pretending like people somehow know Hue was responsible for the story. Making ASSumptions with no basis in fact.

Kind of like those guys making ASSumptions that Hue is lying when he says he has the biggest say in QB decisions.

Since this is the newest Hue-related discussion.

Advice for Cleveland Browns coach Hue Jackson -- Terry Pluto

Posted 6:20 AM
By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer terrypluto2003@yahoo.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- I can write a book about all the things Hue Jackson should change heading into 2018.

The Cleveland Browns coach obviously needs a lot of help with game management.

Jackson managed to appear to be doing too much during games ... and not enough.

Too much, as in too much micromanaging his quarterbacks.

THE COORDINATOR

Jackson is planning to hire an offensive coordinator and will give the man the duty of play-calling.

At least that's the plan.

But I wonder how much of the play-calling Jackson will really surrender.

He also needs a quarterback coach who has the freedom to actually coach the quarterback. They hired David Lee as quarterback coach last season, but he didn't seem to have much of a role.

Jackson was always with rookie quarterback DeShone Kizer in practice and games. Kizer rarely mentioned Lee. It was obvious nearly all of his coaching was coming from Jackson.

Calling plays and intensive coaching of the quarterbacks is a job in itself -- not something for the head coach to do on the side.

I just wonder if Jackson will be willing to delegate.

If he wants to be a better head coach, he will do so.

I also would like to hear Jackson discuss the defense once in a while.

He simply defers to Gregg Williams when questions about that side of the ball arise.

Jackson needs to remember he's the HEAD COACH, and that involves the entire team.

SPECIAL TEAMS

I don't think Chris Tabor is an awful special teams coach, despite how those units played this season.

When Tabor had some veteran players on special teams, his units were respectable.

But the last front office had little interest in keeping veterans to help the special teams -- other than adding veteran punter Britton Colquitt.

What does Jackson think about special teams?

Hard to know, because he rarely mentions them.

That makes me think he doesn't value special teams.

I don't know how much of this falls on Tabor.

Here are his rankings the last four years by Football Outsiders:

2014: 14th
2015: 15th
2016: 26th
2017: 27th
The fall came in the last two years when veterans were wiped off the rosters.

I do know new general manager John Dorsey values special teams. He had excellent units with the Kansas City Chiefs.

Dorsey needs to insist they shape up.

STOP THE EXCUSES

1. No more talk about the team being "too young."

2. No more talk about the team "needing to play a perfect game to win."

3. No more talk hinting that he had nothing to do with picking the roster. Jackson quickly separated himself from the last front office.

Players such as Jason McCourty and Duke Johnson said they grew tired of hearing about the lack of talent.

When a coach dwells on that, the players take it as an insult.

Yes, the Browns had the youngest team in the NFL.

But here's what McCourty told the media after the Browns loss to Pittsburgh:

"The talent in this locker room is not the talent to go win a Super Bowl this year. But this locker room is far more talented than 0-16... I'm kind of tired of hearing so many people say, even within the organization, is we don't have the guys or we need more guys. Let's work with the guys we do have and find ways to win games."

From McCourty's lips to Jackson's ear.

And Dorsey should put an exclamation point next to those comments so that Jackson understands the harm he did to his team with what comes across as excuse making.

Why the need to be offensive?

Honeslty, how can you react like that? Do you have any problems, any issues?

How outside of the realms of reality do you have to be to say someone who does not defend a 1-31 coach is asinine?

Do you think you are smart, or clever for defending Hue?

Then maybe you should state rationally why do you do so, what has Hue showed than can overcome a 1-31 record..

And it has to be very evident, because for asinine's to miss it...

You know that as ass is "a long-eared, slow, patient, sure-footed domesticated mammal, Equus asinus, related to the horse, used chiefly as a beast of burden"

or a "stupid, foolish, or stubborn person."

Now being stubborn and patient is some how more related to the ones defending Hue... at least to me.

What OC or STC would in his sane mind come to work for a 1-31 coach....

If we can find a bona fide OC,it will be a Dorsey guy and he will be breathing over Hue's neck....

Don't expect Dorsey to make the same mistake Sashi did....

If Dorsey manages to install the guy he really thinks should replace Hue as OC then he's one smooth operator.

Guys seem hell bent on talking up Dorsey vs Hue drama.

There are only 32 NFL teams in the world.

Most coaches with a good enough resume would kill to be hired by any of the NFL teams.

Yet we all know he doesn't have the final say. We know who did. He's gone now.

A quick, basic fact check/questioning of a shoot from the hip 'media' piece.

When has Hue said he would give up playcalling? Source? Proof?

The author makes an assumption then later own question his own assumption...journalism?

Maybe he had some good points later on, but the start turned me off and i stopped reading.

We do when we make those ASSumptions that you accuse everyone else of don't we?

It's as plain as the nose on your face. Hue wasn't the president of player personnel. Hue wasn't in charge of hiring the scouts. Hue is the HC. Now you're really reaching.

Hell, if Hue was in charge of the draft, why even hire Sashi in the first place? lmao

Seems reasonable on the surface but in reality, coaches have regularly turned down the Browns' head coaching job. Mike Pettine, for example, was I think the Browns' 5th choice and that was before things really started to derail. Hue Jackson came here as a stroke of luck... or maybe a guaranteed 5-6 year deal which the Browns are now saddled with.

This is the problem with saying there are "only" 32 head coaching jobs... the other 31 are more desirable! The best coaches-- the ones who have options, will prefer one of the other jobs, all else being equal. There are also a number of college football jobs that are more desirable than the worst NFL jobs.

Heck, we even had a coordinator a few years back who delivered a power point presentation to the head coach just to get the heck out of here. It was probably the best career move he's ever made.

Thanks for the link... and I did take a gander at it... in all honesty it doesn't change much for me. It's only a few weeks old and the whole unnamed source thing doesn't sit well with me. The timing of it just seems to me like someone trying to provide more cover for Hue.

I'm not saying it's junk or dismissing it outright. But what I just mentioned combined with the long ago released comments about Hue not thinking Wentz was worth the #2 Pick that had never really been refuted (or confirmed to be fair)...

all that combined just makes me real skeptical about it is all.

What's really screwed us all is that no one has ever actually laid out just how our FO worked. Yes, Sashi ultimately was signing off on contracts and Picks. But was he doing so on his own personal evaluations of those players? Or was he listening to the recommendations of his scouts and coaches and going after those guys?

In any event I think I have come more around to your position of the need for a "football guy" even though our reasons and definitions may be a tad different. Our top guy shouldn't be so lacking in knowledge that he has to almost blindly rely on others, but he also should have enough knowledge to have a clear, comprehensive vision as to what the team should look like going forward.

And when Hue "felt the earth move below his feet", we got RG3 for him.

When Hue didn't feel Wentz was worth #2, we traded down.

When we "trusted him on this one" we got Kessler.

It's pretty clear all right, except for those guys making ASSumptions.

I never really understood how our FO worked either. I like to pin most of it on Sashi for no other reason than DePo wasn't even in the building, and chief strategy officer or whatever doesn't really convey much authority when it comes to personnel.

I think it is extremely important for the HC and GM to be able to work together and have similar philosophies. This is problem with a shotgun marriage pitting Sashi and Hue together. They just had completely different and largely incompatible viewpoints. This is the fault of the Haslams... plural... Jimmy and Dee. Hopefully they get it together because if they don't, the Browns are screwed. It all starts at the top.

The best case scenario is John Dorsey turns out to be the real deal, the Haslams get out of the way and let him make football related decisions, and either Hue turns out to be a great coach with better players, or Dorsey brings in his own guy-- somebody who is a great coach and will also work well with Dorsey.

Enter John Dorsey thank the Lord

I think it was the set up of allowing both Hue and Sashi to be held accountable to Jimmy only that was the biggest problem. I do believe out of the gate that Hue and Sashi were sympatico. I also think their surprise after the 2016 record was genuine. But by not having a streamlined chain of command, it gave room for any disagreements (the strongest of which were probably born out of desperation of needing a win) to become more than disagreements and turn in to cracks and fissures in the foundation. The FO structure allowed Sashi and Hue to develop their own priorities.

squires, you said two different things. one is right and one is imho wrong. you said sf started winning when they got talent at qb. obviously true. you said sashi failed to get us talent. I think that is incorrect. he failed to get us talent at qb. if they had taken wentz we would be at a totally different place. if Mary kay’s story was true about how badly hue wanted Carson then if sashi said no he should haven fired sooner.

given everything that has transpired I do not know why they do not lock the fire hue threads. at this point they are just silly ( said as I post in one of them).

Well we all know that it was Hue who missed on every QB. I mean why else would he still have a job, right?

I'm not sure that it was Hue that said Wentz was not worthy of the #2 pick. READ BELOW...


Carson Wentz is not a top-20 quarterback, say the Browns


By The700Level.com September 05, 2016 8:10 PM
link

(takes deep breath)

Tim Couch, Ty Detmer, Doug Pederson, Spergon Wynn, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Luke McCown, Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson ...

... (panting heavily) Brady Quinn, Ken Dorsey, Bruce Gradkowski, Jake Delhomme, Colt McCoy ...

... (wildly out of breath) Seneca Wallace, Thad Lewis, Brandon Weeden, Brian Hoyer, Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel, Connor Shaw, Austin Davis.

That's quite the ragtag list of quarterbacks. And the one thing they all have in common is that they have each started a game for the Cleveland Browns since 1999.

One quarterback that won't be on that list is Carson Wentz, who the Eagles selected with the No. 2 pick in 2016, which they received from Cleveland.

So why would a team with such terrible QB play trade away a pick that could solve their disastrous history at the position?

Well, according to Browns chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta (the guy Jonah Hill played in "Moneyball,") the team did not think Wentz has what it takes to be a top-20 quarterback in the NFL. And if there's one thing the Browns are really good at, it's evaluating quarterback talent.

"Even though you have a desperate need for one, you have to resist the temptation of taking that guy just because you have a need if you don't believe he's one of those 20 guys at the end of the day," DePodesta told Tony Grossi of WKNR-850 AM. "I think that's the hardest part, just maintaining your discipline because you have the need. That's what we did this year."

Best of luck, Cleveland.

"Again, it comes down to individual evaluation of a player," DePodesta said. "We will not always be right on those type of things."

Yeah, no kidding.

I want Hue gone. I cannot think of one good thing about this guy.