Yeah, it is kinda weird for a DE to play that way in the NFL.
Over the years, Philly's DE's/OLB's played a lot in the 4pt stance with a lot of success. If I remember properly, Trent Cole comes to mind as someone who did it often. I could be wrong. I just know that Philly did it a lot and they were really successful at it.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
4 point: Wider base, lower stance, helps w/covering two gaps. Slower out of the blocks in pass rush.
3 point: Higher base. Better get off of the snap. Less leverage.
I would love to talk to Gregg about his to see his rational. He probably has a very good reason. The only thing that I can come up with is he really wanted to stop the run and was hoping his blitzers could rush the passer. But, I would like to know for sure.
I wish some of our dumb ass reporters would ask relevant questions like this one instead of just flaming the fires like idiots like Pluto and Livingston are doing.
Defenses run by those from the Gregg Williams and Jim Schwartz coaching trees, like Defensive Line coach Jim Washburn, now with the Dolphins, ask EDGE defenders (4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB) to use the four point stance to get a better jump on the snap and use their speed to generate pressures and sacks. For example, Jason Babin’s only two productive years of his career came using the technique for Coach Washburn in Tennessee (2010) and Philadelphia (2011).
One example of an EDGE defender using a four point stance to rush the passer can be seen below, courtesy of Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett. Garrett utilizes a four point stance to come off the ball quickly with good burst upfield, and establishes his hands to the chest of the left tackle to convert his speed to power and walk the tackle into the quarterback for a sack.
Quote:
One of the biggest downsides of the aggressive four point stance is that defenders will use the speed it provides off the line but end up getting too far upfield, effectively taking themselves out of the play, which is why many defenders use it only in obvious passing situations.
There's a video of Garrett in school at the link.
If you look at the 4 pt stances now, you'll notice that they are more stretched out like sprinters stances like you sometimes see with the wide-9 defenses.
I don't like that they are doing it every down though. Like it says in the quote they will run themselves out of the play.
I might be old and misinformed, but we used the 4-pt stance to widen the base, lower the base, and help w/covering two gaps. We used the 3-pt stance to help w/the pass rush.
I could be wrong, but I am really doubting the validity of what they are saying.
I ran track. Ran the 100 yard dash. Yeah, 100 yards, not meters. LOL....I am that old. We never went down into a 4-pt stance. My daughter ran track. She was an excellent sprinter. She never went down in a 4 pt stance to help the burst out of the blocks.
I am not knocking you. I appreciate the info. I just don't know if I can agree w/the evaluations of a 4 point stance helping a quick get off.
I might have to do some research in case people think I am clueless again.
Some DE's prefer it and when given the freedom choose 4 pt stance. The first guy i really recall was Cameron Wake but Orakpo did when he was with Washington.
Most of the speed guys in the combine get down in a 4 pt stance for the 40 as well.
I'll bet you yourself got into a 4 point stance and didn't realize it. Your hand placement was farther back to stay behind the line, but you were in a 4 pt stance.
I was a distance runner but the few times I ran something shorter or was in a race with blocks, I got in a 4 pt. I think I am a little younger than you, but not that much younger.
Right. I ran track too. Take a look at our stances.......you don't run track w/both feet even w/each other. The blocks are always staggered.
I am not getting on Williams in regards to firing him like others. However, I have played and coached football. I know why they get in certain stances. That 4 pt stance does not make one quicker off the ball, but it will help defending against the run.
That is not a negative or positive comment. Just an observation.
So, your are saying that Williams is putting our DE's in a better position to rush the passer?
I'm saying he and other coaches like Schwartz and Washburn think they are. I never used the technique, so I don't know how I would feel. I never liked the squared off 4 we used in the interior though and I always thought I could get the same leverage out of a 3 pt.
I'm trying to envision rushing out of a sprinters stance and agree about running yourself out the play on running downs. I looked to see if they squared the stance off on running downs and it doesn't look like they do.
I decided to research it to see if I was right about the 4 pt being better for defending the run and the 3 point being preferred to play the run and pass.
I will just post this one article. It's short and sweet but pretty much each article says virtually the same thing:
Quote:
What is a defensive end stance in football? 1 Answer Ken Hower Ken Hower, Lifelong football fan. Answered Mar 20 2017
There are several stances in preparation for the snap of the football for a defensive end. A lineman is not restricted to use any particular stance. The choice of stance is usually dictated by the situation. The only limitation is they can not cross the line of scrimmage or jump into the neutral zone prior to the snap.
Stand up - This stance is not very common, due to lack of leverage against blockers. It is usually used in quick snap, hurry up offense conditions. This stance is quick, but lacks leverage against blockers.
4 Point Stance - This stance is second most common stance. It is primarily used in running situations, and mostly used by interior defensive lineman. It provides excellent leverage against the blockers. It has an explosive exit after the snap, however it is difficult to hold for a long time prior to the snap.
3 Point Stance - This is the most commonly used stance by defensive linemen in football. It provides a balance between the Stand up or the 4 point stance. The player has good leverage off the ball, can quickly get one arm up for swim move to shed a blocker and it’s more comfortable.
Here is a web page that shows the results for the question I asked. You will be able to sift through all the articles if you are interested in such things. LOL
Sorry, vers... I wasn’t attacking you or anything when I said I thought I remembered Garrett and Ogbah lining up that way in college, it was just an observation, I was thinking maybe they were doing it now cause it was comfortable for them.
MG has a special skill set ... the way he can bend and torque his body getting around the edge ... starting from the 4 pt. Stance and staying lower actually plays into his “bend torque around the edge” move ...
But hes special in that regard ...
Does that make sense or am i off base in my line of thinking? ... my thinking is solely based off my interpretation of “physics and logic” ... no experience ...
I’ve been wrong plenty of times before especially when physics is involved ... *L* ... hence the question ... does what i’m saying make any sense or am i off base?
If its stupid feel free to tell me ... your not going to hurt my feelings ....
I don't think it is stupid. I really don't know the answer. I'm thinking that his outlandish explosion [look at his vertical jump numbers] is a huge asset coming out of whatever stance he might be in.
I think what got lost in all of this discussion [which has been a pretty good one] is whether or not Williams is putting his d-linemen in the 4 pt stance to help stop the run and is relying on the blitz to create pressure on the QB?
I don't know if that is true or not, but knowing what I know about various stances and seeing the results on the field.....which are:
--us improving against the run so significantly
--blitzing as much as we do
and
--our DL not creating much pressure.
It makes me go...."Hmmmmmm......."
Btw--------props to you for bringing this to my attention in the PM. I've been thinking about it ever since you brought it up.
Idk, if it helps hiders, or doesn’t matter what stance they come out of. To address the issues of not getting pressure I’d chalk it up to inexperience, all these guys are young, with no real vet to learn from, you ca only learn so much from the coach, you kinda need that vet to tell you what you’re doing right and what you need to do better. They should get better every year, develop more and better pass rush moves, learn to know what works better against different guys, etc...
If we address this secondary with quality players at CB and FS this Defense could be very good with our front 7 being healthy ... JMHO
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Yeah there was a video of Myles in the 4 pt in the link I posted. He was using it pretty consistently in college.
The staggered feet will allow them to drive off their feet but the trade off for that is that it is in only one direction. Forward.
The staggered feet are going to hurt lateral movement. A straight line is fine for a sprinter and for a DE that needs to box but being two steps into the backfield before you can make a lateral move is creating a running lane that the scheme will have to address some other way.
I thought for certain that they would simply square off the stance on running downs, but did not notice any difference.
Looking for progress from Coley and Ogunjobi and don't see a reason why it shouldn't happen. I like them both. A kick butt secondary would indeed cure alot.
Idk, if it helps hiders, or doesn’t matter what stance they come out of. To address the issues of not getting pressure I’d chalk it up to inexperience, all these guys are young, with no real vet to learn from, you ca only learn so much from the coach, you kinda need that vet to tell you what you’re doing right and what you need to do better. They should get better every year, develop more and better pass rush moves, learn to know what works better against different guys, etc...
Pressure = Aggression
You cannot have aggression with a losing team mentality and where the leader of your team is using every excuse in the book and making up some more.
Football is a sport where you risk a career injury in every play, so aggression, accountability and merit are necessary conditions for success.
Imagine how players feel being lectured by an 1-31 HC.... Its like the most coward of the generals asking you to give your life for your country to go over the trenches and face the enemies machine-guns...
They will only do what is necessary not to look bad...
Looking for progress from Coley and Ogunjobi and don't see a reason why it shouldn't happen. I like them both. A kick butt secondary would indeed cure alot.
+1
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Defenses run by those from the Gregg Williams and Jim Schwartz coaching trees, like Defensive Line coach Jim Washburn, now with the Dolphins, ask EDGE defenders (4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB) to use the four point stance to get a better jump on the snap and use their speed to generate pressures and sacks. For example, Jason Babin’s only two productive years of his career came using the technique for Coach Washburn in Tennessee (2010) and Philadelphia (2011).
One example of an EDGE defender using a four point stance to rush the passer can be seen below, courtesy of Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett. Garrett utilizes a four point stance to come off the ball quickly with good burst upfield, and establishes his hands to the chest of the left tackle to convert his speed to power and walk the tackle into the quarterback for a sack.
Quote:
One of the biggest downsides of the aggressive four point stance is that defenders will use the speed it provides off the line but end up getting too far upfield, effectively taking themselves out of the play, which is why many defenders use it only in obvious passing situations.
There's a video of Garrett in school at the link.
If you look at the 4 pt stances now, you'll notice that they are more stretched out like sprinters stances like you sometimes see with the wide-9 defenses.
I don't like that they are doing it every down though. Like it says in the quote they will run themselves out of the play.
So the article states the 4 point stance gets them off the ball quicker and create speed.
then we have an in house analysis of:
4 point: Wider base, lower stance, helps w/covering two gaps. Slower out of the blocks in pass rush.
So which is it???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Way to add to the actual discussion. It was really good until.....
Because the discussion was missing the fundamental... Aggression and intensity of play from our D.
Do you think any team in the NFL can win without giving it 110%? Specially on D?
I keep on saying that you can't truly access the D level until we have a competitive team, because until then they will play not to lose, which is very easy to do.
Imagine you are an elite pass rusher, and the coach asks you to give it all out and you see that your CB's are giving opponents WR's enough cushion of an easy completion...
Give it all out, put your body at risk and you cannot beat a screen to save your life...
We were playing with completely stupid concepts on D and on O.... its like we were playing to lose it all.
Defenses run by those from the Gregg Williams and Jim Schwartz coaching trees, like Defensive Line coach Jim Washburn, now with the Dolphins, ask EDGE defenders (4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB) to use the four point stance to get a better jump on the snap and use their speed to generate pressures and sacks. For example, Jason Babin’s only two productive years of his career came using the technique for Coach Washburn in Tennessee (2010) and Philadelphia (2011).
One example of an EDGE defender using a four point stance to rush the passer can be seen below, courtesy of Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett. Garrett utilizes a four point stance to come off the ball quickly with good burst upfield, and establishes his hands to the chest of the left tackle to convert his speed to power and walk the tackle into the quarterback for a sack.
Quote:
One of the biggest downsides of the aggressive four point stance is that defenders will use the speed it provides off the line but end up getting too far upfield, effectively taking themselves out of the play, which is why many defenders use it only in obvious passing situations.
There's a video of Garrett in school at the link.
If you look at the 4 pt stances now, you'll notice that they are more stretched out like sprinters stances like you sometimes see with the wide-9 defenses.
I don't like that they are doing it every down though. Like it says in the quote they will run themselves out of the play.
So the article states the 4 point stance gets them off the ball quicker and create speed.
then we have an in house analysis of:
4 point: Wider base, lower stance, helps w/covering two gaps. Slower out of the blocks in pass rush.
So which is it???
Actually it's both.
This is from the same link I posted earlier.
1. 4-Point Stance for Short Yardage
The 4-point stance is used most by the majority of defensive fronts in short yardage situations along the interior of defensive lines, as they need to be the first to move off the ball and stun the offensive line to stop what will likely be an inside run play from the offense. It gives the defensive lineman a lower stance and better leverage to immediately stack the offensive line and prevent a running lane from developing.
Below is an example of defenders using the 4-point stance in a short yardage situation, as the Miami Dolphins are facing third and goal from the 1-yard line against the New England Patriots in Week 17. The Patriots have five down linemen on the field against the Dolphins’ double tight end set. Both Malcolm Brown (#90) and Rufus Johnson (#70) are in four point stances along the interior of the Patriots defensive line, while the other three down linemen are in three point stances.
3. Four Point Stance to 2-Gap The third and final type of four point stance is used to set up a defensive lineman to 2-gap in run defense. This stance has less weight on the defender’s hands and more on their feet, as they sit back in a squatted position to come off the ball ready to stack the offensive linemen with their hands in run defense posture.
Below is an example of the four point stance being used to 2-gap in run defense, courtesy of Oregon defensive lineman Henry Mondeaux (#92). Mondeaux sits back with his weight primarily on his feet, ready to establish his hands in the chest of the offensive lineman in front of him.
Yeah I get the Short yardage thing but I thought we were talking about our Base D. and from what I saw our DT was not in 4 point as in short yardage they were in 3 trying to shoot gaps.
As for Garrett as it turns out he's been doing it prior to coming here.
Ogbah...do we got some film on him?
So how much is this just a Greg Williams play.
It was mentioned 9 tech they get in this 4 point stance and fire out. Well why not in 5 or 7 tech?
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Yeah I get the Short yardage thing but I thought we were talking about our Base D. and from what I saw our DT was not in 4 point as in short yardage they were in 3 trying to shoot gaps.
As for Garrett as it turns out he's been doing it prior to coming here.
Ogbah...do we got some film on him?
So how much is this just a Greg Williams play.
It was mentioned 9 tech they get in this 4 point stance and fire out. Well why not in 5 or 7 tech?
I don't think anyone here knows for certain, but it appears Gregg likes it to help generate pass rush from the outside. I think we see it more in the wide 9 because since it locks you into one direction, forward, you can simply angle your outside rushers toward the QB when they have less of a need to box. That isn't as easy to do in a 7 tech without teams running outside on you.
I think the fact that the DT's are in 3 pt shows that the 4 pt stance isn't being used for run stopping which is probably why the DE's aren't squaring up on running downs. There must be something that we are doing scheme wise to prevent runs in that guard/tackle gap.
1st being feet in line (unstaggered) to help with leverage and maintaining 2 gaps.
2nd with feet staggered and weight forward to help with explosion/speed.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
