DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A Problem That Needs Addressed

Continuity sure, but as the Haslems have said, We have to have continuity with the right people.

Disagree on who that should be or should have been.

Don't forget there are a lot more people in my camp. We don't care who coaches, who is drafted, who is in the FO... We just want to see wins.

If we all take a breath and don't get so caught up in the business details of the team we realize that the only reason we tune in on gameday is to see the Browns win! It's called being a fan.

Our arguments on here (that should be considerate debates) get so heated because we are win starved fans and there is nothing in fandom lower than being winless.

I'd like to have the money these guys make, but no way would I want their jobs! The FO, the Coaches, and often many players quickly become targets of our ire when we realize the new season's team sucks just like last year's team did.

But if they win these same people become our heros. So the best way for Hue and any other person with the team to keep their jobs is to win! So when I see a fan bad mouthing Hue or anyone else, I consider it deservd as it's just the nature of the beast.

It's a results driven business.

With varying potential to produce results.

Wins undoubtedly mean the most, but I'm a believer in moral wins, and we show little.

Has Hue achieved the result of producing a disciplined team? Hell no. The team is amongst the least disciplined in the league. It isn't a one or two player issue. Across the board, there are constant miscues and issues.

Has Hue achieved the result of the team improving? Absolutely not. The team took a step backwards in 2017, and the young talent brought in hasn't taken any significant leaps in their development in spite of clear and obvious talent. Same reason multiple opponents outright said the Browns had some of the best talent they'd faced all year.

Has Hue achieved the result of putting the team in the best position to win? Not even close. His playcalling is often bizarre, he abandons the run much too early, he runs too many vertical concepts, his playcalling is predictable, his clock management is woeful, he puts his players in difficult positions and the Browns frequently run concepts that leave people with a bad taste in their mouth.

Has Hue achieved the result of putting a great coaching staff together? Not even a little bit. He's overturned a large part of his coaching staff two years running. How many coaches remain from his initial hiring's?

Has Hue achieved the result of consistency? Nope. He has vocally questioned the talent on his team, which suggests he was influential in the front office being overturned. If that's correct, Hue has actively overturned nearly every aspect of the entire team.

Has Hue achieved the result of gaining favour with the fans? Nope. Anyone with cognitive functioning and no confirmation bias is damn sceptical of his long-term prospects, which accounts for the vast majority of, well, everyone. The vasty majority of loyal fans are disenchanted with what he's done.

Has Hue achieved the result of winning? Worst record in NFL history.

There isn't any result that Hue can highlight as a favourable example for why his hiring as a head coach has been even a good decision.

I understand that OCD. Of course, it's understandable to be upset w/the poor product on the field and to vent one's frustrations. I wasn't talking about guys like you. I'm talking about the guys like the two who followed your post. They are 2 of several who are on a crusade to get Hue fired. Post after post on thread after thread.

All I'm saying is that I hope that Haslam blocks out those voices and sticks w/Hue. I don't think firing a coach every two years is a recipe for success. I believe that quick-triggered philosophy is one of the biggest reasons why we are perennial losers.

But you're fine and dandy to have Sashi gone. So a quick-triggered philosophy doesn't work for the HC but it does work for the long-term plan set out by the FO.

Makes complete sense.

I didn't want Sashi fired, but it became apparent that one of them had to go when we heard that the two men were not even talking to one another.

If one of them had to go, I think Haslam made the right choice.

While true, the fans on the board have no control or influence on who stays or goes, there is a large contingent on here, and elsewhere, who want Hue fired. They can't make it happen but they want it.

So, are they "trying" to get Hue fired? Well, they don't have the control but yes, they'd love it and waste no opportunity to tell everybody about it.

ddub, I think that it's been proven that Haslam has listened to outside voices before. The Banner firing came out of nowhere and was surely fueled by all of the negative noise from the media and fan base. Who can forget the "Three Stooges" debacle.

That is why I made this thread. I'm hoping others voice their opinions about not wanting another HC fired. I am hoping that Haslam has learned his lesson and tries to block out the outside noise. I know that has to be tough for him because marketing is very important to him and the attendance figures has to be killing him.

He has. I was addressing Saint as to this board in particular. Does Haslem read the board? Not. Does he have a committee who does read message boards to judge the current climate regarding the fans opinions? I can't imagine that waste of money.

But yes, he and Jr. have both used fan reaction to influence certain decisions. I said earlier, giving so much weight to fan opinion started here with Modell.

Haslem has definately listened to outside voices, but more likely with league connections than people on a message board, IMO. I think "football people" and the "good ole boy" system in the NFL were the factors that convinced Haslem to fire Sashi and keep Hue. Not fans and certainly not a message board.

However, the board can be a microcosm to the tone of the city and what is discussed. What is said and discussed here is usually what is discussed throughout the city. And this city is pretty smart compared to other cities (IMO) about football. I think Jimmy takes in what he reads locally and what is said about the team nationally and it affects his ego and takes it as a personal attack. That's when changes are made-- good or bad. When Jimmy is butt-hurt and feels like he is being mocked. I think he has absolutely no clue what he is doing.

Just curious ...

Do u think the folks that want Hue fired have a legite case or is it baseless BS in your opinion? .. can u see and understand there position in this debate? .. does it have any merit? ...

I think there is a big difference between be dissatisfied w/Hue's performance and vigorously campaigning for him to be fired.

And I am curious about something to. Do you think that the folks who don't want Hue fired are dead-nuts wrong about how poor the roster has been and that firing coaches every two years has part of the overall problem?

Just curious.

I would certainly expect that they try to gauge the mood of the fans. After all, WHO THE HECK PAYS THE FREIGHT FOR THEIR OBSCENE SALARIES?. If it wasn't for the fans, they would by playing for trophies...

I think there is a HUGE difference between wanting a 1-31 coach fired and "Vigorously Campaigning" to get him fired ... Just sayin'

Not asking me, but:

Yes. They most certainly do.

- 1-31 record (I put more blame on Hue than the FO)
- Poor management of the QB position
- Reliance on Hue to find the QB and failing miserably
- Punting on the running game two years in a row
- Horrible game management decisions two years in a row
- Poor usuage of players--- Duke Johnson and David Njoku, specifically.
- Wanting McCarron for the ridiculous price tag
- Throwing everyone under the bus and taking zero responsibility for anything

But a case can be made for Sashi too.
- Letting Schwartz walk
- Signing Kenny Britt
- Cutting Haden
- Listening to Hue and not taking Wentz
- Perhaps not getting a vet or two more in here for the young guys
- Letting McCown go (I assume Hue had a say in this but Sashi is in control of the 53)


The fact that this plan wasn't given the time it needed was the problem, and cutting bait after 18 months was a cowardly move by Haslem. Starting a power struggle by Hue was also pretty stupid since the new guys have zero ties to him.

I think this situation is a mess but there is talent on this team. Hue can up his game, no doubt, but I don't think he will be given much/enough time to do so.

I agree. That is what I was saying. LOL

U didn’t answer my question ... answer mine and i will be more than happy to answer yours ...

Do U see the other sides argument in wanting Hue fired? .. not do u agree with it .. hell, we all ready know that ... *LOL* ... not how u feel about what they say .. don’t bring them and their thoughts into at all ....

Adress my question with HOW U FEEL not what the haters on here think, say or do ...

Do you think there is any merit to their side of the argument or is it all BS? ...

Every opinion has some degree of being legit. However, there is a majority of opinions that are merely derived from hearing some other's opinions that sounds good to them and they repeat it lacking any real knowledge to properly discern the validity of the sources.

Hue makes mistakes. All coaches do. But the strong focus on negativity regarding Hue reminds me of the Trump-hate we're seeing so widespread. It's like there is a large contingent that only sees one side and that side is that Hue sucks.

I think that this thread is not about whether or not Hue should be fired. It's about how the outside noise from the fans and media have influenced past decisions and that I am hoping they won't influence future decisions.

I also think that there are already numerous threads that are discussing Hue's abilities.

But, thanks for doing your part to turn yet another thread into a "Fire Hue" thread. It's appreciated.

I think it's overblown. The parade changed everything. Haslam had 3,000/5,000 fans outside his stadium protesting him and the situation, yet he didn't flip his lid. That is the apotheosis of being mocked. And it wasn't just being said nationally:

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/other-...9162347f3adcedf

That's an Australian media outlet carrying the story. The same story was licenced by the Herald Sun, Guardian Australia, ESPN AU and more.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11968363

Here it is being published in New Zealand: And that is an original story.

So the Browns misery made international headlines.

If that parade didn't influence him, a few forum posts sure as hell aren't going to do anything. Right or wrong, I think Haslam makes his own decisions. Then again, I do like the idea that he forced the selection of Manziel because a homeless man told him to do it.

Thanks for your reply ... appreciatte it ...

Interesting stuff ....

I’m pretty sure, not positive but I believe your one of the haters ... so i appreciatte your response ... but it was predictable ... *L* ... i’m Also looking to see if the lovers see any merit in your side of the debate ... so u don’t count for the purpose of the survey ... *LOL* ...

One follow up question ... FOR U ONLY ... this is about YOUR OPINION to me ...

Why do u place more blame on Hue than sashi for the 1 - 31 record? ...

In this transition from one regime to the next, there are issues to address such as organizational structure/ personnel changes, etc. When you are under a microscope, everything seems to take on a life of it's own...

Thanks bro .... didn’t get what i was looking for in an answer ... so let me follow up with these questions ...

- are u saying they have a legite case and are just going overboard

OR

- are u saying that there blowing the mistakes Hue makes out of proportion and basically making mountains out of mole hills? ...

He knows that parade was organized, fueled and carried out by, essentially, non-Browns fans. I mean, how do you call yourself a fan while purposefully bringing international embarrassment to your team.

I don't know how anyone could feel worse about the 0-16 record than I do. I can't imagine myself separating myself so far from the team as to participate in that.

Non-Browns fans promoting the embarrassment? No effect on decision making.

Of course there is validity to it, Diam. That is why some people are so headstrong on trying to silence it. They have a fear of that validity.

If it were baseless it would be easy to ignore. Most know that Hue is very close to being fired. The minority on the board fear that last straw being laid on the pile.

Without straying this thread too much into politics, this is a well known tactic used in politics as well.

I remember the "homeless man" story. It was the day after Manziel was drafted and Haslam was interviewed about the popularity of the pick. He stated that all over Cleveland people were approaching him and say, "HEY .. We gotta get Johnny Football..", then he said that on the night before the draft, leaving a restraunt with Dee, he even had a homeless man on the street say to him .. "Jimmy, gotta get Manziel..." The story has since been twisted so many different ways that no one remembers what was really said and the context involved.

This is what I was getting at with an earlier post. It's too late to worry about that now. If Hue loses his job at this point, it will be due to lack of wins. Public opinion will have no say in the matter. I can think of no scenario where Haslam puts up with 0-fer for long, and outside noise will have nothing to do with it.

You can't be advocating keeping him on regardless of W/L record. What is your drop dead number, where you have to pull the trigger? 0-4, 1-5, 2-6, 2-8? Do you have an over/under or a minimum amount of wins to retain tenure? It's possible he could go 5-11 and retain his job, but if he starts out 0-5, we may never find out if he could have won five of the last eleven.

I don't believe noise will have any effect on Hue's firing or retention. It's all about wins from this point forward. He has to get at least one win in his first four games, IMO, just to get half a season.

I'd consider myself a "Hue hater" in the context that I think he is a rather classless individual. All the stuff that has come out about him over the past year amplifies this and I think he will do whatever he can to save himself. It happened in Oakland as well. I also don't consider him all that smart either. The guy definatley doesn't think before he speaks, as evidence in his many press conferences.....

....but I never called for him to be fired (at least I don't recall). There might be a post in here somewhere w/ being fed up at his nonsense, but I don't think so. In fact, when everything was going down and people were taking sides about the McCarron deal, I believe I was one of the few posters that called for everyone to remain and to keep going with the plan. I still feel this would have been the best course of action. We change too much. And keeping Hue doesn't mean we are have all this continuity. The rope is as short as ever.

I put more blame on Hue because, generally, I believe there is more talent on this roster than a 1-31 team would suggest. And also, because of the parity in the NFL, most often team can/will win more than 1 game in a two year period. I believe we have more talent on this team (albeit young) than other teams we've had AND STILL were able to squeak out a 4-win season. Think about this-- we're a lucky blocked kick away from being 0-32. The only thing that would give either HC or FO some slack are the injuries we sustained--Jamie Collins, Joe Thomas, Emmanuel Ogbah, etc. Also, not having Garrett for several games and not being 100% was also a factor.

Thanks again Memp ... appreciatte it ...

My bad on thinking u were one of the haters ... i thought u were one of the guys that want him fired .. i was WRONG again ... sorry bout that ....

Interesting take on placing more blame on Hue than Sashi ....

Thanks again ...

I just want to know who made the decision to go into the season without a QB on the roster, who had won an NFL game. Whoever made that decision is the one who should have been fired. That decision, by itself, was the single most devastating decision of the season, and was the biggest reason for the 0 - 16.

The consensus seems to be that the decision was Sashi's, so Sashi was fired.

First off, I was going to skip most of the thread and post my thoughts, but BDU made reading through the whole thing worthwhile. Bravo, my friend!

Sorry for the long post. I actually get to the point in the last paragraph.
Vers,
Sorry man, I really can't agree with most of your post, especially the main point... which is that the fans are a problem and a root cause of why we've been so bad for so long.
As others have pointed out, fans don't have a say in personnel decisions. Haslam may be in over his head (I don't disagree with that), but going from "in over his head" to basing his decisions off of the fanbase is a BIG leap. I don't buy it. Additionally, Cleveland has not somehow cornered the market on obnoxious, ill-informed, trigger-happy fans. Those fans are everywhere, and it is significantly worse in certain places (NY comes to mind).

No... I think the one and only explanation of why we've been so bad for so long (the original point of your post?) is much simpler... the people involved were just that bad, mixed in with some awful luck. How many coaches and FO people that we've fired have gone on to be good at other teams? BillB is obvious, but who else? Shurmer is the only one that MIGHT become a decent head coach, but that's far from a sure thing. IMO, he's well on his way to becoming a poor-man's Norv Turner. He's a good OC, but a poor leader and organizer.

I think we've also had bad luck. If you look back, a lot of times there was just one piece of the puzzle that was missing and ended up being responsible for taking down the whole system. I think Mangini would have been good, but Kokinis went nuts, so Mangini had to pick players, which ended up being his downfall. Holmgren came in and was terrible, as was Shurmer, but the D-coordinator was good (dude from Buffalo). Holmgren and his hires got tossed out, and Banner hired Chud. Then those guys all got tossed out (won't rehash this, but I liked Chud and hated Lombardi (and Banner, to a lesser degree). In comes Pettine and Farmer. I blame Farmer for taking down that regime, as Pettine was a super inexperienced coach that needed time to get his arms around the HC position.
... anyway, I think we've had many good, talented people in place throughout the different regimes, but there's always one or two things that aren't right (most often is the QB position) that take down the whole system.... the fix is usually to clean house which removes both the good and the bad. That's why I'm a little more hopeful this time around. I'm not Hue's biggest fan, but I like how we haven't done a full reboot. I think Williams and the D will be good after the additional talent is added and matured. I think Hue can get back to what made him the most sought after coaching candidate when he gets some additional playmakers in his offense and he can offload some responsibility on an OC.

Very well said, Memphis. Pretty much where I'm at also...

But to clarify, if Hue was fired, I'd be ok with it. But I'm not screaming from the rooftops that he needs to be fired. I'd get why he would be. Between Hue and Sashi, I think the wrong choice was made by Haslem. If there is any consolation prize for the organization, it's (1) Dorsey was hired and he does have decent track record and (2) Depo/Kovach and Berry were retained. For how long? who knows and I'm wary that it wont last much past the draft, but I think Berry has the rep of an up-n-comer and I still think analytics needs to be an important tool for player evaluation. Moreso than what has been done in the past-- in the entire NFL, not just the Browns.

I would put the releasing of Osweiler on both Hue and Sashi/FO.

I think it's obvious that Hue was not going to use Osweiler. He started him the first two preseason games, but then benched him for the final two.

I think at that point and for the sake of the team if Osweiler wasn't going to start, he should be let go. There's a lot of negatives that come out of having a 17 million dollar back-up quarterback. So in essence, Hue chose Kizer over Osweiler.

It was Hue's decision to go with Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan at QB to start the season.

I don't know if this is 100% true but it was very apparent that Hue would have a ton of say on who we would be looking at for the QB position. Everyone said it in the organization-- Haslem, Brown, and Jackson. I think the signs point in that direction on who Hue wanted to go with.

But I think the decision to trade for Brock was a FO move. To eat salary for one year to get a 2nd round pick was in-line with the FO's mission to accumulate picks. The decision to not go with him on the final roster, I don't think was ever a real consideration. The press release of the trade didn't even mention Osweiler until the final sentence or something. I think it's safe to say he was never going to be in the plans moving forward unless Hue was adamant about keeping him, which I don't think was ever the case.

No problem.

That's what happens when a poster likes to randomly start grouping people in a post for no reason except to create factions and bait people based on that person's agenda. Happens all the time, unfortunately. You were even named in that same grouping, unfortunately, on this very thread.

I'm in the same boat for the most part.

I've commented numerous times I'm not sure how you can keep a 1-31 HC. The plan was going...as planned. However, Hue made it worse. I'm surprised Haslam gave up on the plan so soon, it was working and we are in great shape to get better quickly (as was planned).

I'm not as convinced as some that talent will cover up Hue's mistakes. But hey, maybe he's learned something? I also wanted everyone retained, I only wanted Hue gone at 1-15 or 0-16.

It doesn't matter what talent you have on the team, you should be able to find a win. How do you convince free agents that you're improving and we're going to be good when you go from 1-15 to 0-16. No one realizes this but 0-16 is just a hard as 16-0. The problem I see now is we could go 4-12 next year and people will think we made the right call keeping Hue. The talent and this roster are not as bad as some make it sound.

I'll take a stab at your question Diam. The answer may surprise a lot of people, but yes, I fully understand why people want Hue fired. I actually wouldn't carry on like some petulant child that lost his candy if he was fired.

The funny part about what I call the haters, is that they just make BS up though. For one, that Sashi did a good job and if it weren't for the "good old boys" telling Haslam to keep Hue and fire Sashi, Sashi would still be here. What a crock! Like it was Hue who wanted to draft Kessler and Kizer. Nobody knows if that's true. I could go on but I think you get the point. It's the depths they reach to and the crap they make up that get such a reaction out of me.

I think it's certainly understandable to realize their frustration. Hell, I'm frustrated with the losing too. Who wouldn't be? So that part I understand. That is a point that can't be denied.

And if that was the point they were making, I don't think this would be such a point of contention. But some of the utter crap they make up to try to put all of the blame on Hue is like they live in some fantasy world.

I've just seen this movie too many times before. Coaches being kicked to the curb before they were given a roster they could win with. Entire regimes shown the door and it's like shampooing your hair. Wash, rinse, repeat. The closest things we have to impact players on the O are Duke Johnson and Josh Gordon. That's if Gordon ever truly come back to form. Coleman has been a huge disappointment.

Let's see Hue with an actual QB and WR's that don't drop as many balls as they catch.

Here's something people should actually think about. Given the talent on this roster, or lack there of as the case may be, who would want to come here and be the HC? Draft a QB at #1, get a guy like Fitz and a couple of WR's. Then, with a decent FO and some actual talent on the roster, the odds of landing a better HC prospect would be a lot easier if Hue fails next year.

Giving Hue another year and adding some talent, especially a QB, will show prospective HC's that this FO and owner is actually willing to give a HC a fair shake. Something they certainly haven't proven to this point.

Whether Hue gets fired at the end of next year is still up in the air. But giving him another year could be the best case scenario no matter what the outcome is.