DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum AJ McCarron thread

McCarron is much better than Kessler.

At what?

Women.

I looked up Kessler's fiancee .. It depends on your tastes, but I would say the choice is pretty close to a draw..

http://www.lamodels.com/mobile/portfolio.php?ref=M_1_00c5c0_40234

In 2015, one of those QBs completed 66.4% of his passes for and average of 7.18 yards/attempt, 6 TD and 2 INT.

The other QB, in 2016, completed 65.6% of his passes for an average of 7.08 yards/attempt, with 6 TD and 2 INT.

One of these QBs played on a much, much better team than the other did.

One of the things people talked about is the fact that non of our QBs has won a game. This is still the case. McCarron won 2 and lost 2 games in his 2015 season. Is that what we are looking for?

Very select stats you've had.

But here's my point. Hue wanted to give up a 2nd and 3rd round pick for AJ McCarron. Cody Kessler has been on the inactive list all season.

He's coached both for more than a season.


I trust Hue on this. AJ McCarron is a better player than Cody. If they were the same player, Cody would have been starting over Kizer. Instead, Cody was innactive/Kizer's backup. He didn't start a game all season, while we tried to trade for AJ who would have started immediately (without having any chemistry with any of the receivers).



So yeah, it's hard to imagine that AJ isn't better than Cody. Otherwise Hue wouldn't advocate trading a 2nd and 3rd for him. And Hue knows better than us because he's been around both on a regular basis for a decent amount of time

Stats don't tell the entire story, YTown. And one of the losses you attributed to him was the playoff loss to the Steelers. The Bengals had that game. It was over. Then Hill fumbled as they were running out the clock, Burfect got the penalty when he tried to decapitate A. Brown, and then PacMan got the 15 yard penalty for freaking out about the call.

I don't really like McCarron, but I think he played well for the Bengals. I was surprised. And there is one "stat" you left out. Kessler held the ball longer than every other qb in the NFL that year except for Tyrod Taylor.

I am not praising McCarron, but I think he is better than Kessler. I think Kessler is going to have a hard time staying in the league. I will go a step further and if both were waived, McCarron would get the call from almost every team out there over Kessler.

Just my opinion on that last paragraph.

Hue told you to "trust him on this one" with Kessler and you are mocking him?

Good post, but you probably just cued the "Yeah, but Hue is a moron" comments," while they inform us that he is 1 and 31. You know, because we've never heard that one before.

It doesn't appear to have sunk in, though.

Oh, I'm not getting into the Hue should be here or shouldn't. I was very surprised that he was kept on though.


But, on this, I just figure that however you feel about Hue Jackson, he has a better idea of what AJ McCarron (and Cody Kessler) is than we do.......... I mean, he's a Professional Head Coach. Successful O-Coordinator on multiple teams. And he's been a QB Coach.

While after 1-31, maybe we should have went a different direction, I can't imagine he's purposely trying to sabotage the team.

So, in all seriousness, with how familiar he is with AJ, and how familiar he is with Cody; I'm gonna take his word for it over most folks on the board..............

Even with the "Trust me" comment (which clearly he never should have made, and Mike Silver has had incite into)

LOL bro...........I think you missed my intent.

Those are great points. On the flip side and most-recently you have:

RG3 - Moving the earth...but not really;
Wentz - Not moving the earth...but really;
McCown - seemingly washed up and then goes to an equally-talent-challenged team and looks ten years younger/better;
Named Kessler then Osweiler then Kizer as starter from TC thru pre-season;
Benching Kizer when he was playing exactly how most people expected him to play.

IMO...Hue hasn't earned the right to continue being the lead voice in the next QB selection...and that's pretty damning for a guy who was brought here as the QB guru.

Okay, the first three are guys he never coached before making those remarks/decisions.

Then naming Cody his starter was because "Cody earned that" and the other two were brand new players to him....... If anything, it shows Cody's regression/lack of improvement.

I think most on the board thought we'd see improvement out of Cody. He's going to really have to show something to keep his job this year.


As for benching Kizer, that was a coaching decision he made. We don't really know what Kizer's mentality was anyway. Maybe the 21 year old need some time to sit back, take a break, and reflect



But most of these points don't seem that reasonable when it comes to his ability to evaluate McCarron vs Kessler IMO.

Trust me too, please. I have some swampland real estate I have to move come spring thaw.

Sorry, Hue, but I do believe you have shown your judgment is wrong. A voice with input, yes.
But final choice, no. If it a vet AND a high draft, then OK, maybe one is his with agreement. But he seems to marry his choices and seems willing to go down with his decision like a captain with his ship, no matter how bad. That should not be allowed to cripple a team while seemingly propping up bad decisions to justify the damage of those choices.

Do you believe his choices were to start and play those players who gave us the best chance to win? Hindsight is a luxury, but I would say no. Maybe the best among what we had, but I won't even concede that.

I may have misunderstood where you were going there. I wasn't talking about Hue evaluating McCarron v Kessler (which I now think was the point you were making).

I was questioning whether Hue's willingness to spend a 2nd & 3rd on McCarron translated into McC being any good / worth it.

That said, I agree that Hue has the best perspective on which is better between Kessler & McCarron...I think.

I agree mac...the only thing that bothers me is that Hue was brought here specifically to fix the QB position via his rep as a QB guru. He didn't do that...and he didn't win...and he didn't develop any kind of team identity. That said...what DID he do?

I don't think Hue should have any say on QB. He should coach and that is all he should do.

What we don't know is who it was that made the final decisions on drafting the QB's. We know Hue had input, but we really have no idea of who it was making those final decisions.

You mean a QB that is .500 as a starter who has been in the league even longer now as a bridge QB for the #1 draft pick? Maybe.

No doubt about that...we also know that (2) FO guys who "may" have also been on the QB decision team have been fired. Pretty much means nothing other than speculation all around. That said, I don't want Hue anywhere near the next big QB decision...or even little QB decision.

From what Haslam said, I don't think you have to worry. He stated that the #1 priority for Dorsey was to find a QB. While I understand what you're saying, that question has already been answered.

Jimmy Haslam says John Dorsey's 'No. 1 priority' is to find a quarterback

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/12/jimmy_haslam_says_john_dorseys.html

Two things were made obvious there.

1. Haslam doesn't believe we have that QB so we will be moving on from Kizer.

2. It's Dorsey's job and responsibility to find that QB.

I actually believe that was Sashi's job as well and why he's no longer here. You may say that's speculation and that's true. But that would mean they kept the guy who got it all wrong and fired the guys who had no responsibilty for the QB situation. That defies basic math.

I don't think Sashi was lying.

Hue had a big say in who was in the quarterback room.

Thinking it and knowing it are to different things.

You obviously haven't done the math here. Hue made all the mistakes but Sashi got fired? In what ulterior universe does that make any sense?

Jimmy's.

I think that 3 things sealed Sashi Brown's fate:

He could not get along with Hue.

He was unable to add a veteran QB. (Garoppolo and McCarron)

We passed on 2 QBs who appear to be on the fast track to stardom. (Wentz and Watson)

These 3 things almost certainly sealed Brown's fate. I think that Haslam looked at these things, and seeing how important the QB is, put the blame on the personnel side of things.

Personally, I think that Sashi Brown did a solid job of rebuilding the talent foundation of the team. 2 years/drafts into a complete tear-down and we have Garrett, Ogbah, Devalve, Njoku, Drango, Tretter, Zeitler, Coleman, (RT) Coley, Obunjubi, Schobert, Collins, and Kindred are all solid to better players, who can start on a playoff caliber team. Unfortunately the inability to find a QB, and the mess the WR position has been, have been huge failures, along with weakness in the secondary. Fortunately, I think that we will be able to fill a lot of these holes this off-season. Sashi Brown did lay the foundation this team will be built upon, though. (including all of the draft picks we have this year)

The fact remains it was Hue who didn't want Wentz with the second pick. I suppose we can keep telling ourselves it was Sashi but Hue was the voice that drove the quarterback position.

The "fact" is that none of us know the true answer on that one. We have seen conflicting reports. Ignoring one and treating another as gospel isn't very smart and is certainly unfair.

Yeah, it's really, given the swirling amount of rumors that consistently arise in the town of Cleveland regarding football - impossible to believe much of anything that is written.

Anything is believable, anything is not believable...

Then some just tend to believe the things they want to hear and dismiss the things they don't. They don't consider the term "we" as of it could have been two out of three voices in the room. Like Hue would actually say, "Well I wanted him but they didn't." Nobody is going to say that even if it's true.

Here's my take.

I don't think it's any 1 QB that sealed Sashi's fate. I think when Haslam or whoever took a step back and looked at the whole picture from the last couple years he felt pressured to make a statement.

Without the benefit of hindsight, I think it was a defensible decision to pass on Wentz. The guy had huge ??? coming out of college. There were less ??? with RG3 at the time than there was with Wentz. People can beat their chests that they were right about Wentz all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that there was huge risk (moreso than usual) with spending a high pick on any of the QBs that year.

Same with Deshaun Watson. There were ??? around how he would translate to the NFL game.

Add to that the willingness of teams to dump all those high picks in our laps... it's understandable that we put off selecting a QB until the risk was lower.

People so easily forget how Chicago was mocked for jumping up and getting "their" QB (Trub), and we were lauded for trading back and collecting picks. The trade backs (both years) were met with much praise because of the return we got.

Take out the benefit of hindsight, and the picture gets much clearer for each individual decision.


Despite all that I just said, when you look back at Sashi's time here as a whole, there is one big, unacceptable stain on his performance, and that was us not being any closer to having our FQB. Looking back, there were QBs to be had. They were there for the taking, and we passed. Yes, you can defend each decision... but passing on all of them? Of all the talent that was obtainable, we end up with Kessler, Hogan, and Kizer (and RG3)?! When you look at it that way, then yeah... a head had to roll.

There is rarely a draft that every QB in it doesn't have some question marks. That's why posters on message boards and supposed "draft gurus" get it wrong so much of the time.

But let's be real here. The 32 NFL GM's and team presidents get paid seven figure salaries to get it right. That's the job they are paid to do and are held accountable for. When you make seven figures to get it right you have to get it right.

And you can't compare that to a bunch of people on a message board or these supposed draft gurus who aren't good enough to sniff an NFL FO.

Pretty much agree with your post except,



I think that RG3 was a big ???? but less of a risk than Wentz because we didn't have to spend the pick that we did.

I wasn't very high on Wentz because I felt like he floated his passes. My guy in that draft was Jared Goff. Once that option was gone, I felt like Wentz was an okay option, but the trade back made more sense.

There weren't a lot of folks complaining about the trade back when it happened though. From what I remember most folks (there were some that disagreed) felt like it was an okay move because we weren't comfortable with Wentz. Boy were we wrong.



And from what I remember, Watson didn't have a ton of hype on the board this year. Most folks were upset that we let Malik Hooker go at 12, lol. Not Watson, but Hooker. Hooker and Jonathan Allen, lol.


But I think the board overwhelmingly felt that Jared Goff didn't have many ????s the year he came out. Especially after he threw the wet footballs.




But I completely agree with the end of your post. Hindsight is easy to point out. But the fact that we left the QB room the way we did going into the season set up disaster. It's why Sashi lost his job (that and the AJ McCarron debacle, which in some ways is a saving grace, but was borderline insubordination).

I didn't think it was going to be so bad. I don't think most posters here did. But, now I have learned, lol. Going into the season with a QB Group that hadn't won one game, and with Cody Kessler the only one having significant game experience, was a disaster. Also, there was a strong feeling on the board (coming from me as well), that we were going to see major improvement out of Cody. That really didn't happen. That and that Kizer's solid preseason would lead to a solid season. Didn't happen either.

Had Sashi gone out and gotten Colin Kaepernick at the beginning of camp, I bet we'd have had a few wins, and he might have even kept his job

And this is why you and I don't make a seven figure salary to get it right. I actually did pimp Wentz. Still, I'm not qualified for a talent evaluator job.

I don't see how you could possibly consider posters on a message board to the same standard you would an NFL FO. But yet I see it all the time on here.

Agreed. But I don't think I see it all the time on here........

I've actually seen it repeated by posters several times. They say that they understand why the FO drafted or didn't draft someone based on their opinion or evaluation of a player. It's used as an excuse or an attack depending on the situation.

Well I mean, you've gotta be reasonable. Do you expect the FO to be right every time? What else do folks have to compare it to?

I bring up my own evaluation of a player, maybe say "I missed it too", but I evaluate their job as a whole separately....... I'd assume most posters would do that