People will probably flip out over this one, but I think Barkley is somewhat overrated.
Dude is fast. He's big. He's strong. Great athlete. No doubt about any of that.
I do see some concerns. I think he bounces some plays way too early. I think his vision isn't all that great. I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often.
He's a good back, but I would not spend a top 5 pick on him.
Usually we see the same football. But we are way off on this read regarding Barkley. Its like I'm reading. Barry Sanders... I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often...lol
I've never seen a player in top college level that was the guy that had to be stopped to defeat their team. I mean total game plan against him like no other. He not only is a great runner but excellent blocker for the QB and a big time threat in the air game. I'm looking at a kid that might be the best RB to come out in decades.
I never pimp a RB for a top 10 pick but this kid is one that I would love for us to end up taking. Special is good. That is why I just don't understand your take on him confusing as heck cause usually we are on the same page in evaluating talent, our usual conflict might be at the QB position.
Just don't fear the Barkley...he could actually change this team like no other than of course a franchise QB.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Barkley isn't the runner Elliott, Gurley, and Fournette are but he's a better receiver then the last two. I see him as a slightly better version of Duke and would rather we team Duke up with a good runner later in the draft.
I think he is way better than slightly better than Duke, but I agree with vers in that he is probably over rated.
I also see other backs as good, or close enough, to be had in round 2.
Barkley isn't a value pick. Give me Sony Michel at the top of the 2nd round and I am happy.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
People will probably flip out over this one, but I think Barkley is somewhat overrated.
Dude is fast. He's big. He's strong. Great athlete. No doubt about any of that.
I do see some concerns. I think he bounces some plays way too early. I think his vision isn't all that great. I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often.
He's a good back, but I would not spend a top 5 pick on him.
I agree 100% with this.
Curious if you'd rather have a different back or if Barkley is your number 1 but just not top 5 material?
People will probably flip out over this one, but I think Barkley is somewhat overrated.
Dude is fast. He's big. He's strong. Great athlete. No doubt about any of that.
I do see some concerns. I think he bounces some plays way too early. I think his vision isn't all that great. I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often.
He's a good back, but I would not spend a top 5 pick on him.
I agree 100% with this.
Curious if you'd rather have a different back or if Barkley is your number 1 but just not top 5 material?
Indeed. Wait until the top of rd 2. I'm on board with 'peen, above...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 02/10/1809:33 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
I don't know enough and have not seen enough to comment much on Barclay. There are people and pro-NFL media folks that say completely different things about Barclay. For the most part I see pro reviews raving about this guys ability in the NFL. With that said I want Minkah so it's sort of a mute point.
It sure seems like a DEEP QB and RB class. It will be truly interesting to see what and who shakes out over the next 2-3 years.
Last edited by mgh888; 02/10/1809:37 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I I was going to put this article in a Dorsey thread in case I stumbled into the other articles in this series. But it seems to fit into this conversation too well.
A series looking at new Cleveland Browns GM John Dorsey’s philosophy for different positions in the draft. For clarity, only players drafted or immediately signed as UDFAs were counted.
When John Dorsey arrived in Kansas City to become the Chiefs general manager in 2013, star running back Jamaal Charles was coming off of a stunning 1,500-yard season while returning return from his first torn ACL. Charles’ play would hold at that level for Dorsey’s first two years at the helm before injuries again took their toll and his play slowed down. The presence of Charles meant Dorsey and Kansas City weren’t in need of finding a high-level running back immediately.
But even following Charles’ regression, Dorsey showed no interest in investing money or high picks into the position, instead leaning on a third-round pick (Knile Davis) and an undrafted free agent (Charcandrick West). Dorsey’s handling of the position while with the Chiefs set the stage for his larger philosophy for the position.
Unlike other positions, the important testing numbers for running backs are quite simple. There’s size, of course — sub 200-pound backs rarely work out as every down players — as well as the broad and vertical jumps, two drills that test a player’s explosiveness. As is the case with almost every position, 40-yard dash time isn’t overly important, but simply needs to show a prospect has functional speed.
During his time in Kansas City, Dorsey favored running backs that tested particularly well in the two drills that test explosiveness.
West is an incredible athlete, and a gem to acquire as a rookie free agent. If he had been invited to the Combine, his broad and vertical would have been top-three at the position. Additionally, he had the sixth highest SPARQ score in his draft class. As you can see, Dorsey favored backs with good size for the position, in the 5-9 to 6-0 and 200-plus pound range. Iowa’s Jordan Canzeri is an obvious exception, and he didn’t make it beyond the team’s rookie minicamp in 2016. In addition to good size, almost every back tested exceptionally well in the broad and vertical jumps, and ran in the 4.6 range.
The type of running back Dorsey targets is consistent with the type of running backs who succeed in the NFL. Here are the top-five rushers in the league this past season:
A couple notes:
Todd Gurley, coming off a torn ACL, didn’t test pre-draft but is an exceptional athlete and was a track star at Georgia.
LeSean McCoy was coming off of a knee injury as well, but has proven throughout his career to have exceptional change of direction and explosiveness.
Both Dorsey’s history with the position and the top-five rushers in the league last year point towards the last, and most important part of his philosophy. Saquon Barkley has been a popular choice for the Browns by mock drafters, but it’s hard to imagine Dorsey selecting a running back top-five, and rightfully so.
It’s a dreadful use of resources, and thankfully for Cleveland, he recognizes that. He only spent draft picks on the position twice, both third-round selections (Davis and Hunt). This year’s class has a tremendous amount of quality backs likely to be available on Day Two, and who fit the bill.
Rashad Penny, Royce Freeman, Nick Chubb and Kerryon Johnson are all day two prospects who could come in and start immediately, much like Hunt in Kansas City last season.
Running back is a need for the Browns heading into the offseason, but it’s unlikely that need is addressed on the first day of the draft. Instead, Dorsey will use the team’s top-two selections wisely, and add a starting-caliber running back later on in the draft. Maintaining his philosophy will allow Dorsey and Cleveland to add two All-Pro talents at more important positions at the top of the draft, before adding a solid starting ‘back on day two or three.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
So in his last 2 years at KC, since Charles was still healthy and productive in his first 2 years, how often did KC have a top pick in the draft. Always drafting in the 20s, I believe. How many potential quality RBs were available the last 2 years in the latter part of the draft. Moreover, this past draft they moved up to select Mahommes, a QB. So, to try and determine Dorsey's Draft philosophy based on what was done in his 4 years at KC is a bunch of hogwash in my opinion.
Though there probably is some validity to the notion he will wait to take a RB in a later round, particularly in light of how deep this draft is at the position.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
People will probably flip out over this one, but I think Barkley is somewhat overrated.
Dude is fast. He's big. He's strong. Great athlete. No doubt about any of that.
I do see some concerns. I think he bounces some plays way too early. I think his vision isn't all that great. I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often.
He's a good back, but I would not spend a top 5 pick on him.
Usually we see the same football. But we are way off on this read regarding Barkley. Its like I'm reading. Barry Sanders... I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often...lol
I've never seen a player in top college level that was the guy that had to be stopped to defeat their team. I mean total game plan against him like no other. He not only is a great runner but excellent blocker for the QB and a big time threat in the air game. I'm looking at a kid that might be the best RB to come out in decades.
I never pimp a RB for a top 10 pick but this kid is one that I would love for us to end up taking. Special is good. That is why I just don't understand your take on him confusing as heck cause usually we are on the same page in evaluating talent, our usual conflict might be at the QB position.
Just don't fear the Barkley...he could actually change this team like no other than of course a franchise QB.
jmho
I’m with Vers bro ... i think he’s EXTREMELY TALENTED ... but hes not ELITE ...
Dude disappeared in more than one game ...
Hershel Walker, Tony Dorset come right to mind and im sure theres more that commanded more game planning attention than Barkley ...
Don’t get me wrong .... HES EXTREMELY TALENTED ... i just don’t see Elite ...
People will probably flip out over this one, but I think Barkley is somewhat overrated.
Dude is fast. He's big. He's strong. Great athlete. No doubt about any of that.
I do see some concerns. I think he bounces some plays way too early. I think his vision isn't all that great. I think he gets tackled for losses or no gain much too often.
He's a good back, but I would not spend a top 5 pick on him.
I agree 100% with this.
Curious if you'd rather have a different back or if Barkley is your number 1 but just not top 5 material?
I think he is the top back in this class. I think he is very good. I'm not trashing him. I just don't like the bouncing it outside too often, some questionable vision, and all the plays that go nowhere.
I just think we can get a really good back on Day 2. I really like Johson and Penney. I like Michelle, too. I would rank Jones and Freeman a step below those guys. I haven't checked out the ND dude yet.
I wouldn't mind Penney but he's a two down back. His pass blocking is atrocious and his route running isn't much better. He would be a good compliment to Duke despite all of that. He's a very good runner with good enough speed.
I’m with Vers bro ... i think he’s EXTREMELY TALENTED ... but hes not ELITE ...
Oh I know most are on this board...I would care if its an election year...lol
But I will pull a Vers on this one. I have a history with RB. I was right about Marshawn Lynch. I was right about LeSean McCoy...
I am correct about Barkley and I don't have any hopes to say the words I told you so. I just want him on this team if he falls to us at #4!
What a better way to finally get this NEW ERA BROWNS team on track to winning ways by getting us a RB that can be compared to Jim Brown.
I know we get get a Good RB elsewhere but and its could be the way Dorsey will go although I don't believe in some take on his HISTORY as his way of thinking. Cause he never had a Barkley to pass up on in those years. Do I feel confident that he will make a good pick in with 33, 35, or end of the 2nd beginning of the 3rd round? Yeah I do.
But you all can band together and tell me he's over rated or not that special. I'm telling you all he is...and I'll be right once again. The only thing that will say otherwise is if injuries dampens his career.
It will be a mistake to not take him at #4 if available. Will it be a mistake that puts our team back in our progress? No its a very talented and deep draft we can build our team with or without him. Just like we can build this team with or without Minkah.
But to think he's over rated and not a special talent...again can't say enough how wrong you guys are.
Am I saying for us to draft him with our overall #1 pick? I say no way. QB is our priority! but over Fitzpatrick at #4...YES WAY
Don't worry will stick to my guns and don't take it as an insult. Just regarding RBs I've had the I was right thrown at me after the drafts. Don't wish to see him gone here.
jmho we deserve to kick start ourselves back into the Contenders we will be by utilizing one of the Greatest RBs to come into the NFL as I said in Decades.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Who is banding together? Goodness. Almost all are proclaiming Barkley as a great back. Some say he should be drafted #1. Most say top 4. How is that banding together against you.
I didn't even bash the guy. I mentioned his strengths and said he was the top back in the draft. And you somehow warp that into banding against you.
And btw........my record w/RBs is pretty damn good. Do you not recall our discussions on TRich? Do you not remember me talking about his vision and about him breaking things to the outside too early at times?
This is a discussion, tab. Not a war. There is no need for it to become personal.
From the runners I have looked at there is Barkley and everyone else is way behind.
That does not mean a serviceable back can not be found.
There are a number of guys who could be that.
As far as this philosophy of "don't invest in a runner high in the draft".
In my opinion that is total BS.
When a player is great it doesn't matter the position. They make a impact.
Recent history shows the runners taken in the top five have done pretty well.
Barkley for my money is a better prospect than Elliott or Founette. In addition from all accounts he is supposed to be a guy of great character.
Guys like Barkley don't grow on trees. You don't often get a chance to get a guy like him.
You talk about impact. This guy can change an offense. He is threat to score from anywhere on the field. He can impact special teams. He can catch the ball. He will occupy attention on every play. He would be huge in play action.
For me there is no greater joy than salting down a game. Have the lead in the fourth. Get the ball. Run the ball with them knowing you are going to run. Keep getting first downs as the clock ticks away.
Barkley has rare skills. Yes, maybe there are some times he should just run. But you can not teach what he has. You can say "don't dance; hit the hole".
If this guy is there at four; I believe it would be a huge mistake not to take him.
personal??? I write things and I guess you read it as if I am angry.
I am smiling n chuckling as I write most posts n especially those laat couple of posts.
So take a chill pill gosh knows I got several u can borrow...lol Nothing personal...just I think several are missing the boat on him. I watched a lot of him many I havent and come right out saying I have not. Barkley saw most his games from first kick off till the end.
So as the norm what u accuse others of actual is what u are doing.
T rich after we draft. U know that Im a homer n will side with all our picks...prior to the draft what did I say about TRich... clue-I actually stated Id rather we take Blackmon a WR than TRich. Post draft Im going to defend all our picks regardless of what I think of them.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Who is banding together? Goodness. Almost all are proclaiming Barkley as a great back. Some say he should be drafted #1. Most say top 4. How is that banding together against you.
I didn't even bash the guy. I mentioned his strengths and said he was the top back in the draft. And you somehow warp that into banding against you.
And btw........my record w/RBs is pretty damn good. Do you not recall our discussions on TRich? Do you not remember me talking about his vision and about him breaking things to the outside too early at times?
This is a discussion, tab. Not a war. There is no need for it to become personal.
Nope. It's a war.
It ceases to be a discussion when you question eotab's opinion, as I did the other day when I told him no one is going to trade two first-round picks for a 40-year-old Tom Brady. Of course, I was challenging his premise, therefore it was an insult.
It's kinda like George W. after 9/11: you're either with eotab, or you're with the terrorists.
tab, I just don't get the "sides" thing. We are all going to have different opinions. So what? It's not a big deal. No one is saying anything stupid like rasta did in the Joe Thomas thread.
We're just offering our analysis. It's not even important. There is nothing wrong w/various opinions. Defend your guy, but please leave this crap about sides out of it.
Have I once dogged you for loving Barkley? Did I rip bonefish a new one when he was praising Barkley after my last post? The answers are no. Because it's your opinions. Big deal if we disagree a bit.
And again, we ain't disagreeing all that much. I just am so sick of all the stupid draw a line in the sand arguments on this board.
You guys are funny....I got freaking mittens on cause you guys cry if I actually go to war as you say. I defend my opinion as do everyone else. Do I feel insulted...sometimes depend on the presentation against my opinion. if its a pffft attitude yeah I get offended a bit. But if its an opinion that is discussed just cause I come back and justify my opinion it is you all that are taking it personal and that I am declaring "WAR" on you all.
But I guess you are right, I'm a piece of crap and know nothing about the game. I am not allowed to defend my position I'll just let you guys state yours over n over n over but its me trying to declare "WAR"... smh
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
tab, I just don't get the "sides" thing. We are all going to have different opinions. So what? It's not a big deal. No one is saying anything stupid like rasta did in the Joe Thomas thread.
We're just offering our analysis. It's not even important. There is nothing wrong w/various opinions. Defend your guy, but please leave this crap about sides out of it.
Have I once dogged you for loving Barkley? Did I rip bonefish a new one when he was praising Barkley after my last post? The answers are no. Because it's your opinions. Big deal if we disagree a bit.
And again, we ain't disagreeing all that much. I just am so sick of all the stupid draw a line in the sand arguments on this board.
Vers its sort of comical cause I don't think there is a poster who makes a point of "SIDES" more than you...lol
But I just have a strong opinion on Barkley. But I read and I absorb what you are saying.
We agree much more than we disagree we just don't pat each other on the back but when we disagree we make it known.
I get it and agree it is ridiculous to state that we should pick Barkley with the #1 overall pick...only case scenario is if we commit to Cousins as our Franchise QB but I would expect us to trade back if that is the case.
But I do think Barkley is the overall #1 football player in this draft but that does not mean he should be taken #1. For us QB is the priority and I agree with you that this draft is deep with RB talent. Its funny how much you and I see the same things. We both were very impressed with the kid Michel from Georgia, he has that explosion that we both agree on. He can catch...if we don't get Barkley I hope we get him.
But my point is that we have a history with winning football. The game has changed as we haven't won a championship since 64. But nothing could be greater (for me) to make our move (which I think we are) with a very special RB that bar injury can be up there with the all time greats!
But look at our history, when ever we won we had that Runner. Special RBs. I don't need to list them we know who they are.
Barkley is special and we are in a unique position of actually having 2 draft picks in the top 5. Because of that I think it throws out that Don't take a RB in top 5 mentality cause there are many "GOOD" RBs out there later.
It not a risk pick. The kid will be great. I want a 3 down back cause I also would like to not be predictable, only take out our RB when he needs a blow...not cause Duke is our RB when we pass. I actually wish to have Duke become our slot WR full time. This is my thinking in this.
In closing I would like to say thank you cause you might be wrong in your assessment of my post being personal and things like that but you posted respectfully and did not attack me even though you thought I was.
We have been at odds with each other in the past and have said hurtful things to each other. But Vers, you are a Good Soul and don't think you get the credit for that. So thank you for being a posting friend. I should consider you one regardless of our history.
No anger, no chuckling - just some tears in my eyes to all of you on the board. Thank you. You all are good people.
Later all.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Barkley is what he is, which is a big play waiting to happen. Explosive in the run game and pass game, but he isn’t what he isn’t also, he’s not what most would call a physical runner, and while he has improved his blocking he still has a way to go, but that comes back to the physicality or lack there of in his game, he catches blockers and doesn’t initialize the contact. He shows this in his running too. Never really looks to run people over and almost always run away from defenders, which he is very capable of. One reason why I’ve compared him to Barry Sanders. Great back but never really wanted to get hit.
Barckley has every chance to be great and I think he will be but he’s never gonna be confused with some of the more physical runners. He can take it to the house on any play. That’s what makes him great. His speed and explosiveness. Imo he will impact a team the same as Marshal Faulk did. He doesn’t have Marshal’s vision or decision making. Marshal would get what he could on every play knowing that he wasn’t gonna score on every play, while I’ve seen Barkley make some minor mistakes in the run and pass game trying to make to much out of a play and not just take what’s there. I’ve seen him cut back trying to avoid a defender only to end up in the lap of another defender when if he stayed with the play could have gotten a few yards. Another reason I e compared him to Sanders, I’ve seen Sanders have many negative runs trying to cut back to much. But he still can do what he can do better then most. That’s why he’ll be a high draft pick.
Let's take a look at Derrius Guice. Many places have him rated as the #2 back in the draft. Scot McCloughan said that he would choose Guice over Barkley.
Rather than watch his highlights, I watched his touches in full games. I'll post one of them for you. It's against Florida. I will add my impressions after the video.
This performance seems similar to some of the other games I watched. Here is what I see:
Strengths:
--Keeps feet moving --Tough runner --Falls forward after contact --Decent speed --Good blocker --Can make guys miss in open field
Thanks for the video vers. I love the "All touches" videos much better than highlights Good choice of games. I like to look at how they play against tough opponents and Florida has a good D
I am making my comments based only off this video as I didn't get a chance to see Guice play. I am also making comments before reading yours, I'll look at them after I post.
My first observation is that he looked small. I thought he was a bigger guy? Quick google search and I found 5'11 and 212# on ESPN.com He looks smaller than that to me.
He didn't seem to run with power except for one play He didn't look explosive except for one play - he screen. He seemed pretty poor in pass pro
He looks like a straight ahead runner. His cuts were slow. Instead of a plant and cut he often took 2-3 chop steps. Love his spin move. Looks like a very potent weapon.
Overall not a fan (Thank you Captain Obvious) I might need to find a highlights reel to see what all the hype is.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
--Keeps feet moving - agree, I should have included that --Tough runner - agree that he runs tough but didn't seem overly powerful to me --Falls forward after contact - good catch --Decent speed - He didn't look that fast to me. Maybe I am misinterpreting your use of decent --Good blocker - I wasn't overly impressed with his blocking --Can make guys miss in open field - Great spin move. Can create a pick up your jock moment
Concerns:
--Poor hands - I don't think that game showed enough to come to a conclusion on that - one way or the other --Average vision [at best] - Seemed like in this game there was either a big hole that he hit or no hole hat all --Poor lateral cuts - agreed
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
I think you missed my point, hammer, I actually like Barkley but just pointing out what type of runner he is. And I’ve stated before I don’t think Dorsey will look at him cause he’s in the school of thought that you can get almost the same type of production from a back picked in later rounds.
Just so you know, I was basing my comments off of all the videos I watched. I just posted the one game on here so I wouldn't overwhelm people w/videos.
So, my comment about his hands was that I saw him catching the ball w/his body too much.
I liked the way he kept his fee moving and was able to push forward for yardage in those goal to goal situation but wasn't a pile so to say just more than one defender there. He seems to have the ability to slide in congested areas and keep on going forward.
I was not impressed with his explosion or speed. He was not able to get the edge in a lot of occasions.
Just looked very average. Nothing great maybe a 3rd round investment?
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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