DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Chief Wahoo dropped

You guys realize that CFRS15 is a Yankee fan who would love to see the Indians falter. Right?

Don't listen to the crap that he's spewing.

I am really not concerned about the logo. I'm not a baseball fan and really only follow the standings unless the Tribe makes the playoffs so it doesn't effect me in the least.

It does make me wonder though. Where do we draw the line? At what point do we say that enough is enough? I mean everyone gets offended over things. I understand the point about Chief Wahoo, I really do. But where will a line finally be drawn?

What if people start protesting over the use of the word Indian and want the name to be changed to The Native Americans? Is that the point where they're going too far?

I mean at some point there is a line in the sand. I'm not sure where that line should be drawn. But I do know one thing. If we change things every time someone gets offended, the entire world would have to change about everything.

I hear you and it will happen. All we can do is voice our opinion to those who ultimately make those decisions and hope that logic and fairness rule the day.

I was against the Chief Wahoo logo and I don't like the name "Redskins." However, I will be right along side guys like you if people try to go after other mascots/logos/team names, such as Blackhawks, Braves, Seminoles, etc.

I've enjoyed our exchange. I like how you debate/discuss rationally.

lol i love this comment

I agree w/you and Excel and I have been discussing it.

I don't agree w/changing things every time someone is offended. That's absurd and I've seen how it's hurt the education field first hand.

I don't know Pit, because it's really hard to define where that line is at. I can speak to what I believe, but that doesn't mean I'm right. For example, I have never been "offended" by the Chief Wahoo logo or the Redskin name. However, I think both were in poor taste and that both seem derogatory towards a group of people.

I've never been a fan of unflattering stereotypes. I think we should honor and celebrate all cultures and see the good in them. I think it's great to have such a mixture of cultures and that we should all be accepting of one another.

I also don't think that people should be overly sensitive and try to tear down everything they don't agree with. I'll say this again.........I think the Florida St Seminoles is cool. I love the logo on their helmets. I love the dude who comes out on horseback before each game. I don't find that derogatory at all. I think it honors a local tribe. And I'm not even a FL. ST fan. I just like their mascot and logo. I would be vocal if the social advocates tried get rid of the Seminoles name and others like it. Heck, even though it is an inaccurate name, I don't find the name "Indians" as offensive. I would just like to see a logo that honors Native Americans/Indians.

I just hope all can use some common sense, decency, fairness, and logic when we discuss these issues.

Sounds fair and I really don't have the answer to it either. I just have a pretty good idea of how human nature works. You give an inch and they'll take a mile. I look for situations like this to escalate to the point that neither of us will be happy about it.

Well, we'll be fighting them when it happens.

or it means you see racism where no racism was ever meant or intended.

Is blackface racist?

Depends on the context.

Sometimes yes, and sometimes NO

Is the confederate flag racist... sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

Is watermellon racist.... sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Is fried chicken racist? sometimes yes and sometimes NO.

Is calling somebody the N word racist.... sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Is calling a white guy a cracker, redneck, or some other terms racist.... sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

Otherwise you get stuff like this:
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=68509

That's hilarious!

Like I said, "I get that you can't comprehend what people try to tell you."

I get being poor in the USA means we haven't suffered enough so our complaints have no merit to you. I get that since you don't care for the logo that you don't care about how others might love and cherish it. Got it.

People say Wahoo is a racist symbol. Yet, it's a symbol that promotes a positive, happy image and relates to having a good time. It promotes good will and affection towards Indians. People don't say Cleveland Indians and think they must be terrible because they are indians. It's a name showing respect for the toughness of indian warriors.

There is no way it's a racist image except to those wanting it to be racists. They are the same people who will try to find racism in any thing anyways. I'm so tired of these hate filled people going around just looking for ways to attack things they know the people care about and get their jollies by taking it away. When they destroy one thing they just move on to destroy something else. It's disgusting we let them get away with it.

I can tell you this much for certain. When you spit on a symbol of goodwill it will never move the hearts in your favor. In fact, your most likely to just build up anger and resentment instead of compassion. That's ok though. Lets just remove all Native American names from mascots so they can truly fade away from the public and they can be even more forgotten. It's a really foolish thing they are doing.

I get where your coming from. I agree that I am biased because of emotional attachment. Still that kind of IS the point. It's not like my story is unique. There are thousands more from other people just like me. There is no cleveland Indians fan that is looking at Wahoo and going oh look how dumb indians must me or having negative thoughts about indians because of it. It's not a symbol to incur an insult but one to bring forth good will.

To me this is a shame and a tragedy.

Razor, I owe you an apology as I didn't mean nor intend for my message to come across as it did and for that, I apologize.

We do disagree on the logo, but I was too quick to be snarky with my initial reply and your comment didn't deserve my snide remark. No excuse and again, I apologize.

The Dolans should be ashamed of caving to this PC BS.

Notice they are keeping Wahoo for a year. People will be buying hats and gear like crazy. Making the Dolans a bundle.

Another thing, Dolans get the All Star game in 2019 for dumping Wahoo....If you don't like it you must be a Racist.

I appreciate that. I know I have been pretty harsh in this thread too So I apologize because I know I gotta pretty meant here. Just remember is all vers fault =P

For those who might find it interesting ...

http://beltmag.com/secret-history-chief-wahoo/

It's a good read before we all have to say goodbye to the old Chief and probably the team name soon too.

I think you're trying to put all Native Americans into one box. They're not a political party who all feel the same way about everything.

I believe you would be correct to say a portion of them share that view, but what portion that is, is questionable.

Let's face it, those that aren't bothered by Chief Wahoo certainly aren't going to go out and protest in favor of the logo.

It's my contention that we really have no idea as to what portion of Native Americans are truly offended by this.

I don't think he is.. but it brings up the question, how many, or what percentage of people, need to find something offensive before their complaint is legitimate? or how LOUD do they have to complain? What about non-involved supporters, like the blonde girl from Brooklyn who is not Native American and might not even know a Native American but is offended on their behalf all the same? Does her vote even count?

No, it is not my fault. I had rational and logical discussions w/both Excel and Pit. We disagreed, but they were good conversations.

You, and a few others, came on this thread and the other Indians thread and started calling people whiners, complainers, cry babies, etc. One guy said we wore skirts and had a pad. Why? Because we didn't like the Wahoo logo?

So, look here little man............if you call me those names............I'm gonna come back at you. I will accuse you of he same damn things.

You want respect? Treat me w/respect. If not.....you get what you give. Pit and Excel were both respectful and rational. We disagreed, but the conversations were conducted w/class and reasonableness.

I set my personal threshold at "some."
Example: If I met a handful of folks from the Shawnee, Creek, Iroquois, Sioux (etc) Nations who said they preferred to be called First Nation Citizens, I'd gladly comply, and probably refer to all in this way.

Those who care will appreciate the effort and respect. Those who don't care won't be effected in any way. So I don't mind remaining open to those I'm addressing. Never have.

Some folks will inevitably call it 'being PC.'
I just call it common courtesy.
It's just how I was raised.

As far as national controversy is concerned, I'm ok letting someone else fight this fight. I'm fine with watching, because that's my level of concern about it. If I'm going to pick a cause to support, I'm much more inclined to fight for the betterment of actual people more than fight against some cartoon character. Nobody standing in front of the Dakota Access Pipeline looked a thing like Chief Wahoo.

_______________________

but on to Wahoo: I first saw it when I was maybe 3 or 4 years old. I didn't even comprehend what I was seeing. The little thing just creeped me out. Those supersized teeth, the misshapen face, the bright red skin... the thing looked demonic to me. Someone gave me a Wahoo bobblehead when I about 7 years old... I couldn't display the damn thing in my room. I boxed it up and put it in the corner of my closet. Found it when I was packing for Freshman year, and gave it away to a cousin.

I won't miss the little mascot. I've basically spent 6 decades ignoring it.

Then perhaps some should know the reason the Cleveland Indians have thier name and who chief wahoo is.

They are named that because they are the first team to ever allow a native american to play major league baseball by the name of Louis Sockalexis in 1897. He didn't have a great career overall but he did have some great seasons with Cleveland. Back then the Cleveland community was very fond of him. Keep in mind also that in 1897 there were still many folks alive who had fought in real wars against Indian tribes. Cleveland was under attack by some of the other ball clubs for even letting him play. You could even say this was part of the foundation of building a culture in Cleveland that fought against racism. It's really far more important than many of you realize.

That being said, he was still disrespected by racism. It wasn't the same level that Jackie Robinson faced but it was in some ways just as bad because just like today Indians are not viewed as important enough to hate or try that hard to ridicule. Still the name Cleveland Indians was intended to honor and show respect for Indians and especially a fan favorite. That was the official reason given. Any other reason is just speculation or false rumors.

There is controversy on the origins of the decal though. Back in the 1930s there was a comic strip called the Little Indian that was made to follow on the wins and losses of the Cleveland Indians. A LOT of people loved the comic strip. As comedic stuff goes it did have insulting things about indians to be sure just like there is lots of racism in stand up comedy today. Anyways, many years later in 1947 the Cleveland Indians "hired a kid named Walter Goldbach, 17, who designed the caricature. Goldbach, who worked for a local ad agency, defends Wahoo to this day. He explains that “it was the last thing on my mind to offend someone.” After some alterations in 1951 (less nose, more red), the Wahoo image became the version we see today"(Brad Rica). In any case it's obvious to many that the young Goldbach stole the image either by accident or on purpose from the comic strip he grew up loving.




The name Chief Wahoo also comes from another native american that played for the indians. Let's be clear here. Back then it was VERY uncommon to see ANY native american playing baseball. This player's name was Allie Reynolds and he first came up from Cleveland and was then traded to the Yankee where he was part of 6 world series as an elite pitcher. His nickname back home was Allie Chief Wahoo Reynolds and Chief Wahoo Wizzing. So our little scout wahoo with 1 feather started being called Chief Wahoo after that too. The city had a lot of pride in their Cleveland grown superstar Chief Wahoo.

This is why I say, anyone who knows the HISTORY would understand it's not a symbol or racism but in fact is the complete opposite. It marks the journey of people coming to love native americans in Cleveland, OH. They say the breeding ground for hate starts with ignorance. I hope after learning more about our team's history that you understand why I feel the way I feel. Either way, I am done talking in this thread for the most part because there is really nothing more to say on it. I just hope the ignorant haters who ran chief wahoo away choke on their own hatred because all they have done is destroy a symbol of a city overcoming bigotry against native americans.

thank you.

That would have been me Vers, and it's perfectly fine to call me out by name. It's also fine to come back at me on it as I started it. Hit me with your best shot bro

Nice piece of research , thanks !

Nah bro, I'm not into that. I was just pointing out that I didn't start the crap.

Your welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it =)

No problem. I was just pointing out that I did, and I shouldn't have.

OH MAN. I understand all to well. All to well man. OH MAN can I relate.

At 3-4 years old when I first watched The Wizard of Oz and that tree came alive and started a throwin them apples.....

Yup. Head buried in the pillow, cryin, shakin, and scared to bejabbers.

60 years and still.......

Two words, Dawg:
flying monkeys.


"Fly, fly, my pretties...."
[shudder]

Nobody in this thread (at least yet) is debating the name or the use of the phrase Chief Wahoo.. it's the caricature of the deformed red Indian face that people have a problem with.

lol my dad's idea of toughening me up was making me watch nightmare on elm street 1 and 2 the same night when I was like 8-10 years old. I woke up with scratch marks on my chest and lost my mind in nightmares for 3 months.

It worked though. I don't have real nightmares anymore because I can control my dreams for the most part. The real problem is the house I lived in lorain Oh was haunted and I would sometimes wake up with them hovering over me scaring me so bad I couldn't scream. I was so glad when we moved from there because I haven't seen ghosts ever since.

Lol but now my dad hates to watch horror films with me because it just makes me laugh at how stupid the plots are. The only ones I can't watch are the demonic ones because they really give me the heebie jeebies.

BINGO!

On the same scale.

Oh man. Nightmares tonight.