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Originally Posted By: Brownoholic
Report: Sam Darnold won't throw in Indy

Posted by Josh Alper on February 27, 2018, 10:49 AM EST

The top quarterback prospects in this year’s draft class will be looking for ways to differentiate themselves from one another over the next couple of months and Sam Darnold has reportedly found a way to do it in Indianapolis this week.

Adam Schefter of ESPN reports that Darnold will not take part in throwing drills during the Scouting Combine. He is expected to throw at USC’s Pro Day workout on March 21 instead.

Josh Rosen, Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield and Mason Rudolph are all expected to do the throwing drills in Indy. Lamar Jackson has not announced what he plans to do at this point.

There have been plenty of quarterbacks in the past who have passed on throwing at the combine in favor of working in familiar conditions and with familiar receivers at their schools. That trend has reversed in recent years, but it seems Darnold will not be part of that wave.


Has the pre draft hype done any good to any QB... we end up downgrading good Qb's and hyping bad Qb's...

Always keep in mind Jamarcus Russell...

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Before people get bent out of shape:

Quote:
Prominent QBs who did not throw at the combine include Derek Carr, Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, Ryan Tannehill, Brock Osweiler, Blaine Gabbert, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Jamarcus Russell and Brady Quinn.


https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/968533844159811584

bonefish #1411590 02/27/18 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Sam Darnold, USC
How much football does he know? Darnold's considered the cleanest of the quarterbacks in this class: tough, competitive, instinctive, humble, hard-working and at his best in big moments, with enough arm, vision and mobility to give him, in one NFC executive's opinion, the most upside as a pro QB in the group. But Darnold is still just 20 years old, was a late convert to quarterback and made enough bad decisions (36 turnovers in 27 college games) to leave scouts wondering how much he really understands about offense at this stage. "The board and his knowledge is going to be important to test, because I think he's got some strides to make there," a college scouting director said. "I think he's almost more of a streetball player than he is a classic quarterback." Darnold went into high school as a linebacker and receiver and has the mechanics to match, including a funky, elongated throwing motion, though he gets the ball out quickly enough. Where it goes has created some head-scratching moments on tape. "He'll make some boneheaded throws and decision-making," one AFC scout said, "so I think some of the (football) intelligence questions may be lurking for him." But one NFC scout pointed out the Trojans' lack of weapons and offensive-line problems and said the word from coaches is Darnold is "totally capable" of grasping an NFL offense. "You can see him go through progression," the scout said. "You can see him look off safeties. You can see him understand where his outlet is. You see a lot more out of him than you see out of a lot of these (spread) guys."

Is there more to his personality? No one has a bad word to say about Darnold's character, but several scouts told me they're interested to see how he comes across in interviews. "He's not a real dynamic dude," an NFC executive said. "He's kind of a flat-liner. That can be good and bad." That California cool demeanor is also part of what Darnold's fans like about him. He's steady. "He's got fire, but it's more internal fire, competitive, going to be shown to his teammates and coaches and staff there," another NFC exec said. "They love the competitiveness. They love the makeup of the kid. He's just not going to flaunt it." Said an AFC scout: "There's no issue with the kid, but can he step in and command the locker room, and they respect him? He's not going to be that vocal leader type -- which is fine. But are guys going to look at him, like, 'Who's this 20-year-old kid, this baby-faced kid?' "

How big are his hands? Some scouts laugh off the importance of hand size, but ball security was an issue for Darnold, so there will at least be interest in seeing this measurement. He fumbled 21 times over two seasons. "There's a couple of plays where the ball slips out of his hands," an NFC scout said, "but considering how far he drops it in that motion, he would lose it if (his hands) weren't big enough." Said another NFC executive: "His game translates to the cold. He's rugged. He can extend plays. He can throw it short. He can throw it deep. He's tough as hell. I wouldn't be worried."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...ign=Twitter_atn

PitDAWG #1411605 02/27/18 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I like Darnold and all, but that first ass was very dangerous throwing into triple coverage.


Is the first ass any indicator on future asses?

mgh888 #1411622 02/27/18 03:14 PM
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The reason I feel that most analysis of quarterbacks fall short is because they are unable to project where the player will be down the road.

They look at a guy with two years of college experience. They go over the film of his games and say here are all his faults and here are his highlights.

What is missing? If a quarterback prospect is to be a franchise quarterback and play 15+ years you have to be able to project where he will after he has been in the NFL a few years.

There have been very few guys coming out of college that were pretty much the player in college that they became in the NFL. Peyton played four years in college and Luck played 3 years of college ball. Both guys came from parents who played pro ball. They are exceptions.

Most of these guys who come out early. You have to find out how will they handle professional coaching? What tools do they have and how will they develop?

Most believe Allen and Darnold need time to develop. Actually all the prospects need time to develop. The key is which guys will develop?

You look at their core talent; then try to decide what has to happen for this guy to be a true NFL franchise guy? I mean these guys are in their early 20's.

Darnold we know from film can extend plays and throw accurately on the move. We can see his footwork sometimes breaks down and he turns the ball over.

What the evaluators have to determine is will Darnold correct his mistakes under NFL coaching? Sometimes it is not so easy to figure that out. However, that is what makes great GM's.

Drew Brees, Russell Wilson someone had to see more than what was on the game film. Somebody had to overlook their height.

Peyton played four years of college. He was a consensus number one pick. He had talent but what made Peyton was Peyton. The same was true with Brees and Wilson. Their drive and character made them along with their skills. You need both.

When I break prospects down I try to figure out who they are and who will they become.

From what I have seen and what I have been able to find out about Darnold. He has the making of a great quarterback.

He has strong core talent but he also has the work ethic and desire to become great.

So it isn't just what you see now. It is what you will see later.

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Good post.

I have a different view of the process. I think projection is near impossible. I think all an evaluator can really do is properly assess and evaluate against the other QBs in the draft class and against previous QBs.

Then rank the QBs based on that.

The QBs will become what they become. I believe a lot of what happens with a QB is beyond our (as layman on the couch with no access to them as people) ability to assess. Who is the kid? What kind of leader are they off the field? Are they coachable? Will they work hard? How committed are they to being the best? Are the tough? Are they soft/scared?

Then I think much of what determines whether or not a QB succeeds are factors external to them...how good is the organization that drafts them. Is there a coach on the staff that absolutely believes in them and knows how to coach them? etc.

There are so many variables that I believe it is impossible to project.

I think all a team can do in the draft process is observe, evaluate, assess, rank then draft.

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I wish Darnold was throwing....i wanted to see the ball leave his hand side by side with the other prospects to get a better gauge on his arm talent.
When I see him on film it kinda look like he has 'enough' arm but not a 'plus' arm.


I heard that he maybe trying to clean up his throwing motion....I'm from the school that believes if he get's the ball out quick enough and he can put the ball where he wants (and I think he does both) then don't change his throwing motion; odds are it won't stick anyway and there's a chance that it messes with his head

edromeo #1411762 02/27/18 08:38 PM
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No big deal. Hell all kinds of guys didn't throw.

I mean really throwing in shorts to receivers you have never seen?

It makes no difference.

What makes a difference is his interviews.

There is tape. A pro day and private workouts.

They know he can throw.

edromeo #1411766 02/27/18 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: edromeo
I wish Darnold was throwing....i wanted to see the ball leave his hand side by side with the other prospects to get a better gauge on his arm talent.
When I see him on film it kinda look like he has 'enough' arm but not a 'plus' arm.


I heard that he maybe trying to clean up his throwing motion....I'm from the school that believes if he get's the ball out quick enough and he can put the ball where he wants (and I think he does both) then don't change his throwing motion; odds are it won't stick anyway and there's a chance that it messes with his head


He was doing little things like following more through with his hips, and said his ability to drive it deeper was increased. I can't find the article where he was talking about it, but he is improving his mechanics. He needs to. He doesn't have to completely change his style, no one would want that as he's known for getting it out quick... but clean up the fundamentals. Keep in mind he should get a little stronger as' well.

EDIT

I found the link

https://www.dailynews.com/2017/08/15/usc-qb-sam-darnold-raves-about-shorter-throwing-motion/


Last edited by Dawg_LB; 02/27/18 08:43 PM.
edromeo #1411877 02/27/18 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: edromeo
I wish Darnold was throwing....i wanted to see the ball leave his hand side by side with the other prospects to get a better gauge on his arm talent.
When I see him on film it kinda look like he has 'enough' arm but not a 'plus' arm.


I heard that he maybe trying to clean up his throwing motion....I'm from the school that believes if he get's the ball out quick enough and he can put the ball where he wants (and I think he does both) then don't change his throwing motion; odds are it won't stick anyway and there's a chance that it messes with his head
Something I have been wondering, and maybe some of you guys can help me understand. I keep hearing about how hard it is to change the ingrained muscle memory of a QBs throwing motion. And I get that to some extent. But Darnold only started being a full time QB in his junior year in HS. Previous to that he played WR on offense and LB on defense. (In his sophomore year he played 1 game at QB when the starter got injured.) And he only played 2 seasons at USC (although I'm sure he did his fair share of throwing as a red shirt.)

So does the fact that he has only played QB for 4-5 years mean the muscle memory isn't as ingrained as with someone who has been QBing for 8-9 years by the time they reach the NFL?

Also, in baseball it is very common for pitchers to change their throwing motion, either after surgery or as they age and become more finesse than power pitchers. I realize they are different motions, but in both cases it involves changing years of muscle memory. Why would it be so common in baseball but so hard to do in football?


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Pressure. Game speed.

It's very hard to change muscle memory no matter the sport. Throwing a baseball, the golf swing, balance on a backhand in tennis, throwing a football, etc. But man, when you have guys in your face and the coverages are complex, it's easy to revert into bad habits.

I am not a big fan of evaluating qbs throwing the ball at the Combine. There isn't any coverage. No one is rushing the qb. However, if Darnold is indeed changing his throwing motion, that is a bit of a concern.

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Muscle memory is a THEORY...Tiger Woods is good example, he's had lots of body issues, changed his swing lots of times and still among worlds best. If Sam fixes his feet, changes his throwing motion, good AND if he reverts back to his OLD motion, that hasn't been bad at college level....hope he's working on gripping ball with TWO hands more because he's going to be DRILLED on why do you fumble so much?....GO Browns!!!


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bonefish #1411944 02/28/18 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: bonefish
No big deal. Hell all kinds of guys didn't throw.

I mean really throwing in shorts to receivers you have never seen?

It makes no difference.

What makes a difference is his interviews.

There is tape. A pro day and private workouts.

They know he can throw.


How did we ended drafting Manziel, or how did Jamarcus ended up being the first pick..... and the CB guys we drafted in the first round that didn't like football among other things...

I honestly think there is too much Hype with all this pre draft stuff.

Watch his tape... and do the background checks on character... for first round picks that should be enough.

Project players should be the ones where we interview and hold private practices, first rounders there should be no need to do that.

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Speaking from a baseball coaching perspective you never really change a throwing motion.

What you do is work with what they have and tweek it.

In football you work on where you hold the ball. How you hold the ball. You work on balance. Hip rotation. Weight transfer. Release point. Throwing arch. Ball security.

It really is tightening it all up.

Not a complete change. Like they tried with Tebow.

Wentz went through the same thing after his first year.

Darnold will be fine. His release is already pretty quick and he has good arm strength.

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bone if they think the motion will hurt the arm they will change it.


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bonefish #1412595 03/01/18 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: bonefish

Speaking from a baseball coaching perspective you never really change a throwing motion.

What you do is work with what they have and tweek it.

In football you work on where you hold the ball. How you hold the ball. You work on balance. Hip rotation. Weight transfer. Release point. Throwing arch. Ball security.

It really is tightening it all up.

Not a complete change. Like they tried with Tebow.

Wentz went through the same thing after his first year.

Darnold will be fine. His release is already pretty quick and he has good arm strength.



When my son was playing QB(6 years). He quit football to be a pitcher because he things he can get a college to pick him up. Anyway he struggled switching between the different motions and intricacies of each of the mechanics/footwork. It would always take him some time to get whatever throwing motion down and be comfortable with it.

The throwing motions between baseball and football are completely different. Don't forget to mention the footwork/crab walking, weight transfer, moving around in a pocket,on your toes vs heels, how they finish, their arm being twisted vs tucked, the lead arm is pointing in football, in baseball the wrist usually is, how their chest are after the release throw also completely different.

In baseball, when you are throwing, your chest height and how far forward it goes effects the accuracy of the pitch. In football, it has almost 0 impact.

In baseball, about 15% of the throw is in the arm. The angle of the throw is based on how a kid naturally punches. The hand placement/angle it comes out at is usually based on comfort. 85% of a pitch is core body legs and how much chest you get forward after landing your feet and driving it properly. In baseball, you are not moving around. Heck, you even stand on the same corner of the rubber every inning and land in the same spot. In football, you don't have the same luxury.

Until my son got into 7th/8th/9th grade I never realized how different the throwing motions were. Good QB's throwing motion are almost an upside down pointed J shape. They all pretty much look the same. Snap to release time is super important as well.

Many, can't change their throwing motion much and to get into the J shape is kinda akward.. It can feel too tight on their shoulder, knee bend, hip twistm it causes new pains, it's too much to mentally overcome, many times they can't throw it as far or with nearly the same velocity. Lastly, their accuracy goes to crap and so does their confidence. We didn't even get into footwork either. which is just a ton of reps, crab walking, and box drills.


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Intelligent post.

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