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...Lamar easily has the highest ceiling of any QB coming out this draft. Hell, I could make the argument that he also doesn’t have the lowest floor, that’s for guys like Allen and Rudolph. If you think it’s a good idea to get a vet/bridge QB and not have our future QB start day one, then I don’t see why we wouldn’t take Lamar or Mayfield and let them develop.
Hell, we WOULDNT even have to draft them two #1 or #4. We could trade up with the abundance of draft picks into the mid teens and have a shot at those guys. I don't know why you bother with eotab, he's clearly not interested in having a discussion as much as yelling his opinions. I will disagree with you on a couple of points though. I think Allen has the 'highest upside' that arm talent, size and athleticism if he maximizes everything else would be sick kinda like a combination of Flacco-Cam. Personally I don't factor 'upside' into my evaluations because its something that may never happen. Allen having the highest upside still doesn't make him the top ranked QB for me. Regarding where Jackson will be drafted...i think he's easily a 1st round QB. Draft media and team draft boards never actually mirror each other...but they'll get closer after the combine and pro-days. So even though Jackson is talked of much now...i think come draft time he'll be in top 20-15 prospects off the board.
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my problem with Allen is that we already have someone with all those intangibles in Kizer.
just watching some of the draft breakdown vids, i truly don't see much of a difference. so for me, why waste a 1st round pick on somebody when you have almost the same guy on the Roster?
but thats just me though. if we're gonna seriously take a QB in the first round, he better be different than the guy we already have on the roster. at that point, i would rather develop Kizer, cause Kizer himself could develop into a Flacco-Cam.
i say Lamar has the highest ceiling because you can't teach the athleticism he has. this guy is Vick with a better Arm, better accuracy, and better work ethic. Hell, there's a solid chance that he could be faster than Vick on the field.
So thats why i hope we take him. i mean everybody is talking about getting a bridge QB anyway, so why not take Lamar if you don't plan on starting the rookie out the gate? the only guy that might be able to start day one is Rosen. but just because he might be able to start day one doesn't mean he will end up being the best QB in the draft.
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Lamar jackson has a high TD-INT ratio, comes from a winning tradition, plays in a tough conference.
Lamar DOES have accuracy. he isn't dumb as a brick, and he doesn't have any off the field issues.
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i say Lamar has the highest ceiling because you can't teach the athleticism he has. this guy is Vick with a better Arm, better accuracy, and better work ethic. Hell, there's a solid chance that he could be faster than Vick on the field.
So thats why i hope we take him. i mean everybody is talking about getting a bridge QB anyway, so why not take Lamar if you don't plan on starting the rookie out the gate? the only guy that might be able to start day one is Rosen. but just because he might be able to start day one doesn't mean he will end up being the best QB in the draft. I'm not advocating for Allen, (i'm not advocating for any prospects) and like i said before 'upside'/'highest ceiling' doesn't mean much of anything to me in terms of evaluation. But, I think Allen has the highest upside because of his ridiculous arm strength. But again upside doesn't mean a whole heck of lot. Vick had the best arm that i've ever seen in person...so when people talk of Jackson having a better arm then Vick i get what they mean but i don't agree. I was at the Falcons v Ravens game iirc..in baltimore and i was near the sideline and i could literally hear the ball whizzing through the air when Vick was throwing sideline warm-ups with his receiver. I don't think you would necessarily "need" to sit Jackson. There are elements to his game that will help an offense day 1, game 1. As far a prospects go right now I have Jackson ahead of Rosen by a smidge.
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i would hope that if we do indeed draft a QB, we don't throw him into the fire day one.
maybe it will be different because i think Haley will do a better job of putting the QB in better spots than Hue, but in general, it just hasn't worked here in cleveland.
people compare their arms because, and you've seen it already, Lamar can throw lazers with zero effort. its literally the flick of the wrist. my dad took me to the Falcons-Browns game in the 2002-03 season that we made the playoffs. Vick didn't have the best game, but yea, his Arm was crazy.
I think Lamar has similar arm talent, but i think he will be more accurate than Vick. for me thats the difference, and an accurate version of Vick as a whole package? thats something no defense wants to see on sundays.
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Well I was using your own ridiculous logic that a QB who drops automatically has accuracy issues. hehehe...yep I'm ridiculous.
Look this is not that hard to figure out. You got a QB with a winning tradition. High ratio of TD to INT...Has the height,
has the arm strength...but for some reason is not mentioned as a Top 5 pick QB. It is only because of
1. Accuracy
2. Dumb as a Brick
3. Has Issues with Drugs, or police issues with domestic violence or stuff like that.
That is what I'm saying. And if you think that is ridiculous go right ahead and belittle your credibility. Btw how old are
you...lol  I think you forgot number 4. 4. Would rather be working than talking to the media. or 5. Doesn't give a good soundbyte.
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I don't know why you bother with eotab, he's clearly not interested in having a discussion as much as yelling his opinions.
An out right lie!
So you just made the coward move and made it personal cause "CLEARLY" its not you that wishes to discuss.
I like the way that happens people point and say somebody does this or that. When all they have to do is look in the mirror.
Obviously you don't wish to look foolish in a discussion with me so you pull this crap. Coward.
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Don't know Grimm about that 4 or 5 and what that has to do with it???
But you are talking about media as in fans. I'm talking in the analysts and their secret ties with some GM's and scouts that they get a tid bit here and there. Usually on a position that they aren't looking at for their team or they draft so far down that they aren't involved in decisions with said players.
Unless he is the hidden Gem of the draft.
But Why would a guy with that running ability that is actually GREAT. And a body that can get bigger with time. And the STATS that he has provided also a starter for several years.
Why would he not be in the discussion of a top 10 pic in this draft.
He is not a thug he has no drugs in his past. Looks to be smart and good kid. What I saw was major flaws in his accuracy. I could be wrong but then as I stated the kid should be in the talks as the #1 overall pick if he was at all considered Accurate worthy for the NFL Franchise QB.
Again he might become a great QB??? If taken I hope he would sit a couple of seasons and work on his body and his football knowledge of the NFL.
Thats pretty much it. Grimm. You tell me why and please I hope you don't say its a racial thing...I think we are over that not that I have ever been racial.
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Good convo btw- i would hope that if we do indeed draft a QB, we don't throw him into the fire day one. I wasn't speaking specifically for this team just disagreeing that Lamar would "need" to sit as rookie. He might, but there is as much to suggest that he would need to sit as there was with Watson. I think Lamar has similar arm talent, but i think he will be more accurate than Vick. for me thats the difference, and an accurate version of Vick as a whole package? thats something no defense wants to see on sundays. I don't really want to get bogged down in the perceptions of Vick. But I think Mike Vick was more accurate then he gets credit for being certainly more accurate then his completion % suggests. Vick's problem was that during the prime of his NFL careers he was leading a double life and football wasn't close to his top priority...Vick admitted to having a pile of the gameplan DVDs the staff made for him unopened in the trunk of his car. For most of his career Vick 'did it live' so to speak. When you don't know the gameplan and you wing it you're going to miss throws. Anyhow Ian Wharton charts for accuracy for the top prospects and even went back and charted Vick at V-Tech....  That's why I would rather discuss Jackson on his own merits as opposed to comparing him to Vick...but again I understand the comparisons...but imho those comparisons often lead to a discussion about Vick more then a discussion about Jackson. But, I've posted Ian Wharton accuracy charting for this current QB crop before in some other thread. Wharton has Jackson on the same level with Darnold.  
Last edited by edromeo; 02/16/18 02:07 PM.
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I always like when you post these charts bro. Definitely informative.
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Don't know Grimm about that 4 or 5 and what that has to do with it???
But you are talking about media as in fans. I'm talking in the analysts and their secret ties with some GM's and scouts that they get a tid bit here and there. Usually on a position that they aren't looking at for their team or they draft so far down that they aren't involved in decisions with said players.
Unless he is the hidden Gem of the draft.
But Why would a guy with that running ability that is actually GREAT. And a body that can get bigger with time. And the STATS that he has provided also a starter for several years.
Why would he not be in the discussion of a top 10 pic in this draft.
He is not a thug he has no drugs in his past. Looks to be smart and good kid. What I saw was major flaws in his accuracy. I could be wrong but then as I stated the kid should be in the talks as the #1 overall pick if he was at all considered Accurate worthy for the NFL Franchise QB.
Again he might become a great QB??? If taken I hope he would sit a couple of seasons and work on his body and his football knowledge of the NFL.
Thats pretty much it. Grimm. You tell me why and please I hope you don't say its a racial thing...I think we are over that not that I have ever been racial.
I was actually talking about media as in the guys on the networks. The other guys they are talking about are more fond of/willing to get in front of a camera. The media often talks up whomever they are talking to/doing a special on. I think a lot of the lack of hype for Jackson is that for all the talk of coaches adapting scheme to the talent they have, most coaches won't/don't like doing it. To maximize Jackson, you'd have to let him do more of what he does well. I think a lot of people think of post-injury RG3 when they think of him, and forget how effective he was before it.
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Depending on who drafts Jackson and how they use him he could be great or struggle. He has all the tools plus great running ability. It all depends on the offense he is in. Personally If I drafted him I would be willing to build an offense around his strengths. A lot of teams refuse to do that.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
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I disagree w/your take.
I think accuracy and quickly making post-snap reads are far more important than who coaches him.
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I was actually talking about media as in the guys on the networks. The other guys they are talking about are more fond of/willing to get in front of a camera. The media often talks up whomever they are talking to/doing a special on.
I think a lot of the lack of hype for Jackson... I don't even understand why or what how much media exposure a prospect gets matters anyway? Unless you rely on the media for your QB takes. I'm not saying you do Grimm just talking overall. Mel Kiper gave Allen some pub as the top prospect/QB on his draft broad. The irony of that mock was because Kiper mocked Allen as the top QB yet said that Jackson could potentially move to WR. The reason he sighted? Accuracy based on comp %. But here's the kicker. Jackson had a higher comp %, QB rating, QBR and threw for mores yards then Allen against a higher level of competition. Jackson lowest comp % season is Allen's best comp %. Season. So I don't know why or what the draft media says has anything to do with actual evaluation? Since then...Baker and Allen have been the talked up because they've recently 'done' something. They were the 'star' QBs at the Senior Bowl and did a bunch of media spots. It was televised, the practices, their media spots and the game. Answering the question of why a prospect is talked about by the media seems to me like a waste of a good opportunity to discuss QBs. I think the 'hype' for Jackson is on the way...and its probably going to be for all the wrong reasons...speed.
Last edited by edromeo; 02/16/18 07:11 PM.
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I was big time RG3 pimp remember when I liked him for our first round pick and was lambasted by many who said he wouldn't get taken in the first round...lol
I just don't see the accuracy that RG3 had in Lamar. But as stated if I'm wrong and the kid is accurate worthy. He should be considered in the overall #1 discussion. Let me know when he does...its a long way till draft day. 
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I was big time RG3 pimp remember when I liked him for our first round pick and was lambasted by many who said he wouldn't get taken in the first round...lol
I just don't see the accuracy that RG3 had in Lamar. But as stated if I'm wrong and the kid is accurate worthy. He should be considered in the overall #1 discussion. Let me know when he does...its a long way till draft day. well hes more accurate than Allen or Mayfield. Probably not as much as Rosen, and I am not real sure on Darnold .
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Agreed Vers. If you look at any great QB they have those 2 attributes. They have and need others but those 2 are qualities they all have.
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Hmmm - No.
He would be the 4th most accurate of that bunch (completion % based, anyway).
1. Mayfield
2. Darnold
3. Rosen
4. Jackson
5. Allen
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I disagree w/your take.
I think accuracy and quickly making post-snap reads are far more important than who coaches him. That is okay with me. I am stating my opinion based on many years of seeing coaches have success with QBs by building their offense around the talents of the QB. Why did Foles look great with the Eagles but struggle with the other teams he played on? Or Keenum this year with the Vikings? Accuracy and post and pre snap reads are very important but the right system will help get the most out of your QB. Just stating my opinion. I don't claim to be an expert.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
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That's fine. And I was just stating my opinion, as well.
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Hmmm - No.
He would be the 4th most accurate of that bunch (completion % based, anyway).
1. Mayfield
2. Darnold
3. Rosen
4. Jackson
5. Allen and that completion percentage is a pretty misleading stat. What throws a QB is making, based on the offense he is running, play a large part. Mayfield is definitely not the most accurate passer if that group
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more accurate then Mayfield...  In what alternate universe...lol
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Hmmm - No.
He would be the 4th most accurate of that bunch (completion % based, anyway).
1. Mayfield
2. Darnold
3. Rosen
4. Jackson
5. Allen and that completion percentage is a pretty misleading stat. What throws a QB is making, based on the offense he is running, play a large part. Mayfield is definitely not the most accurate passer if that group Agreed that comp% isn't a very true assessment of accuracy. The truest most useful accuracy stats are the one that chart for accuracy. I posted Lamar Jackson and Darnold's earlier in this thread from Ian Wharton. Darnold edges Jackson out by 1% point. *Hopefully PFF will make their accuracy charting available like they did last year. It broke down the prospects throws based on actual ball location...it was the truest accuracy assessment I have come across... If people are actually interested in moving beyond there current perceptions/opinions there is information out there that can help, even if the aren't inclined to chart games for themselves. Anyhow...completion percentage is one of those stats that is partially a measure of a QBs ability to throw with accuracy but its also a measure of the functionality of the team's passing offense....scheme, pass catchers. It also doesn't convey ball location which is often what some people mean when they say accuracy. But anyway...a stats that is one step up form completion percentage is adjusted completion percentage because it removes drops and throw-aways and accounts only for aimed passes. (still doesn't account for scheme, espn used to have a 'standardized' completion % stat that factored in the type of pass i.e. a stationary screen pass counted for less then a deep post etc.) Anyhow PFF's ranking of their top 14 draft eligible QBs are below. Each card lists several of their metrics. Adjusted completion % is the 2nd stat listed after the overall grade:       
Last edited by edromeo; 02/18/18 09:38 AM.
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TLDR
Based on Adjusted Completion %:
1. Mayfield (81.5)
2. Rosen (74.6)
3. Jackson (73.3)
4. Darnold (71.3)
5. Allen (65.7)
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Does the adjusted completion percentage take into account the difficulty of the throws or just throws that are “catcheable”? I’m asking cause I don’t really know what all is taken into the equation.
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Does the adjusted completion percentage take into account the difficulty of the throws or just throws that are “catcheable”? I’m asking cause I don’t really know what all is taken into the equation. I tried to explain it in the post that has PFF QB draft prospect ranking cards. But i'll let them explain it: Adjusted Completion Percentage = (Completions + Drops) / (Pass Attempts – Spikes – Throwaways – Batted Balls – Balls disrupted by a QB hit)
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Hmmm - No.
He would be the 4th most accurate of that bunch (completion % based, anyway).
1. Mayfield
2. Darnold
3. Rosen
4. Jackson
5. Allen and that completion percentage is a pretty misleading stat. What throws a QB is making, based on the offense he is running, play a large part. Mayfield is definitely not the most accurate passer if that group Agreed that comp% isn't a very true assessment of accuracy. The truest most useful accuracy stats are the one that chart for accuracy. I posted Lamar Jackson and Darnold's earlier in this thread from Ian Wharton. Darnold edges Jackson out by 1% point. *Hopefully PFF will make their accuracy charting available like they did last year. It broke down the prospects throws based on actual ball location...it was the truest accuracy assessment I have come across... If people are actually interested in moving beyond there current perceptions/opinions there is information out there that can help, even if the aren't inclined to chart games for themselves. Anyhow...completion percentage is one of those stats that is partially a measure of a QBs ability to throw with accuracy but its also a measure of the functionality of the team's passing offense....scheme, pass catchers. It also doesn't convey ball location which is often what some people mean when they say accuracy. But anyway...a stats that is one step up form completion percentage is adjusted completion percentage because it removes drops and throw-aways and accounts only for aimed passes. (still doesn't account for scheme, espn used to have a 'standardized' completion % stat that factored in the type of pass i.e. a stationary screen pass counted for less then a deep post etc.) Anyhow PFF's ranking of their top 14 draft eligible QBs are below. Each card lists several of their metrics. Adjusted completion % is the 2nd stat listed after the overall grade:
Analytically which is not carrying as much weight as it did the last two drafts he would be hands down our #1 pick.
But wait...lol Lamar is more accurate...
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It sounds like it doesn’t take into account the difficulty of the throws, that is where tape would come into effect for me, are the passes he’s completing to single coverage, or to wide open receivers, or is he fitting it into some tighter windows? I don’t even remember who I was even talking about, to be honest, but I’d like to watch whoever play and see if his throws are “easy” throws or somewhat more difficult throws, that will tell me how accurate he can be. If a QB is throwing to wide open, huge windows where the room for error is great I’d question if he really is accurate or not.
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It sounds like it doesn’t take into account the difficulty of the throws, that is where tape would come into effect for me, are the passes he’s completing to single coverage, or to wide open receivers, or is he fitting it into some tighter windows? I don’t even remember who I was even talking about, to be honest, but I’d like to watch whoever play and see if his throws are “easy” throws or somewhat more difficult throws, that will tell me how accurate he can be. If a QB is throwing to wide open, huge windows where the room for error is great I’d question if he really is accurate or not. Like i said in the post with with PFF's ranking cards....adjusted completion % does not account for the type of pass nor the difficulty. ESPN used to have a stat that standardized completion % for difficulty of the throw and that's the only stat I can remember. I believe ESPN QBR accounts for passes based on difficult but doesn't publish it as separate stat its just rolled into their QBR. As far as scheme goes i kinda mentally deduct (~3-5% points) from spread QBs when looking at/using comp % based stats in comparison because they have more built in 'gimme' throws then non-spread passing attacks. Like I was saying before adjusted completion % isn't an accuracy assessment. BUT it is clearly a step up from raw completion % though. It does gives a general on target vs off target vicinity assessment. Does the QB put the ball on the receiver? It won't tell us ball placement. You can only get that from actually charting for accuracy yourself or relying on people that do like PFF's accuracy charting which actually gives a chart of ball location:  But for me it always starts with the film.
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I think Lamar has a better draft ranking then most people in this forum think
Is this a secret ranking...n just who is privy to it??? How much does it cost?
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You either have to work on your "reply"/"quote" skills or stop making false claims.
Can you quote where I said Lamar was more accurate then Mayfield?
All I've said about Lamar accuracy is that he wasn't inaccurate like you were saying.
We can disagree without you purposefully shifting the goalposts on me.
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Here are my issues with Lamar:
2016 - he was very inaccurate - per my eyes
2017 - sound like his accuracy improved but I didn't watch him at all
Assuming his accuracy has improved as some here seem to indicate then my only issue is this:
I think he has a special skill set. And that he needs an offense designed around him.
I do not believe that Hue would be willing to alter his offense to fit Lamar
Now that we have Haley, I might need to reconsider
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Why? Hue is far more open-minded than Haley.
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Why do I think I might need to reconsider? Because I don't know enough about Haley to know if he is the type of coach that would morph his offense to fit the players he has.
I have seen enough of Hue to be convinced that he has his offense and that is what he is going to run regardless of whether his top Wr's are Antonio Brown and AJ Green or you and me.
The difference between Jesus and religion
Religion mocks you for having dirty feet
Jesus gets down on his knees and washes them
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Joined: Mar 2013
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You don't have to reconsider. That's up to you. However, I watch a ton of Steeler games and listen to the talk because so many of my family members and their friends are huge Steeler fans. Haley is not an open-minded coach.
Thus, while you don't have to reconsider anything about Hue and you have already concluded that he sucks, I also have a right to support and defend him when I see statements that I think are false.
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Hall of Famer
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Thus, while you don't have to reconsider anything about Hue and you have already concluded that he sucks, I also have a right to support and defend him when I see statements that I think are false. Don't worry, they aren't false. Hue said he needs players to fit his system. I think the past two seasons are pretty good indicators that he doesn't adapt to his players.
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Here are my issues with Lamar:
2016 - he was very inaccurate - per my eyes
2017 - sound like his accuracy improved but I didn't watch him at all
Assuming his accuracy has improved as some here seem to indicate then my only issue is this:
I think he has a special skill set. And that he needs an offense designed around him.
I do not believe that Hue would be willing to alter his offense to fit Lamar
Now that we have Haley, I might need to reconsider I'm evaluating the QB prospects in vacuum. Not specifically for the Browns. But I think all QBs benefit if an offense is fit around them. I don't think Lamar "needs" that to happen anymore then any other prospect. However; the difference between Lamar and most of the other QB prospects is an offense designed around him can be uniquely dynamic because of extraordinary explosiviness. I try not make assumptions about coaches strategies. I would have never expected Bill O`Brien and DeSean Watson to work out so well together in terms of scheme. Hue is a very creative coach, if he was willing to add read-option concepts with Andy Dalton i dont think he would ignore it with Jackson. Likewise Haley has used read-option concepts with Ben. And Haley has been vocal about putting his players in the best position to succeed. And Haley comes from the same system as OBrien, the Erhardt-perkins, which is known to be a QB friendly and QB centric scheme.
Last edited by edromeo; 02/19/18 09:26 AM.
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Legend
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Hmmmm...........I always heard that O'Brien's offense was complex and much harder for a qb to grasp than most offenses. Here is a cool article from earlier in the year. I got a real kick of how the author compared O'Brien's O to what Hue Jackson did w/Kizer. Heck, I'll post that part: Watson wasn't the first rookie to start at quarterback this season, either. The Cleveland Browns already anointed DeShone Kizer their franchise signal-caller. Cleveland head coach Hue Jackson provided a different approach compared to O'Brien.
Jackson spread the field, motioned often, used tempo and kept Kizer predominantly in shotgun to limit the Pittsburgh Steelers' defensive options in Week 1. The Browns didn't need to simplify the offense, though, because the coach schemed ways to make his pre-snap reads easier. Full article here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/27333...mal-o-line-playPerspective is a beautiful thing.
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O'Brien runs the Erhardt-Perkins offense. Which is known for being QB centric/friendly and highlighted by simple verbiage for passing concepts. You don't have to take my word on the E-P offense you can look it up for yourself if you like.
Also, if your last post was trying to suggest that Hues offense catered to Kizer more then OBrien did for Watson makes me think you didn't watch any Texans games.
Also, your article compares Watson's 2nd start which was on a short week because of Thursday night football. It is well known that a (short week) game like Thursday night football leave little to no room to change a game plan.
Did you watch Houston the rest of the year?
If you didn't watch them then I can understand your assumption. BUT if you did watch Texans games I don't see how anyone's honest assessment can be that Hue adapted his offense anywhere near as much as OBrien.
Last edited by edromeo; 02/19/18 11:06 AM.
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At this point, I'm comfortable with all the top QB's minus Allen.
Preference for either Darnold or Jackson.
I believe Jackson will be special in the league. Great arm, and with a guy like Barkley in the backfield, defenses won't be able to contain two runners (Barkley/Jackson), as well as play coverage. Jackson can hit his guys over the top with ease.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Lamar Jackson
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