DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Parkland School Shooting..17 dead

Let's continue the discussion here...

Vambo...


That is a shame.. I've never said guns are the ONLY problem. This is a complex problem that will require complex and creative solutions to fix.. Instead all I see is heels being dug in and finger pointing to blame somebody else.

40...


There were armed guards at the school at the time... next.

But now that you mention it, I am proud. I'm proud of the fact that I recognize that there are civilized countries ALL OVER THE WORLD.. that don't have to send their kids to school under armed guards and perimeter fences... that don't deal with school shootings on a regular basis... that don't have many of the problems we have... and I'm proud that I'm not one of those folks who is so f'ing arrogant that I think we can't learn something from them.. because they're from Europe and Asia... they ain't from 'round here.

I'm proud that I can recognize that the solution to excessive gun crime is NOT more guns...

I'm proud that for all of the great things our founding fathers did, I can recognize that they weren't flawless and could not anticipate the way things would change over the next 240 years.. and that maybe we should modify our way of thinking just a little to adapt to a 21st century world.

I'm proud that I'm comfortable enough to listen to different opinions and consider them as reasonable and not so obstinate that I'm convinced that I have the exact right solution to every problem.

Thanks 40.. I hadn't thought about how proud I am of myself in a long time.. thanks for bringing it up.

edited found photo of cruz flippin the bird...

jc DC

I posted this in the other thread but no one said anything: http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-contr...-deaths-2017-10

Would a common sense approach be something along the lines of the above, where you have to be licensed to own a firearm, which includes a mental health check?

At the very least, I've ran into my share of jerks at the range who I felt were not qualified to carry a weapon. Poor trigger discipline, abysmal respect for where the gun was aiming, etc. I own a few guns. I would have no problem evaluating any system that severely limited how people can access guns. My oldest son is 3 and I am legitimately scared about mentally deranged people...

I'm glad you keep bringing this up.

At what point should they have put this kid in an institution? You do know that unless you've been put in an institution you can legally buy a weapon, right?

And where do you think we'll put all of these people?

It's far easier to point the finger than it is to come up with real solutions.

That sounds good in theory. But who determines what parameters there will be to a mental evaluation? Would everyone determined to have ever had depression be unable to purchase a firearm? Anyone who has ever been treated for anxiety?

I've known people who have been evaluated by different mental healthcare professionals. Often times with varying diagnosis. It's a very slippery slope.

Right about at this point.

He doesn't need to go into a mental institution unless he has a legit mental illness.

Violent tendencies isn't a mental illness.

Mental illnesses can cause that, sure.

But was he ever diagnosed with anything?

Because going to a mental institution isn't gonna "fix him" unless his underlying problem is actually something diagnosable.

Seems more like he needed to go to juvie.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/15/school-safety-cuts-trump-administration-348968

School safety money would be slashed in Trump budget



By KIMBERLY HEFLING
| 02/15/2018 03:00 PM EST


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Two days before the school shooting in Florida that left 17 dead, the Trump administration proposed cutting millions in federal education programs meant to help prevent crime in schools and assist them in recovery from tragedies.

Funds targeted for reduction or elimination in the Trump administration's fiscal 2019 request have helped pay for counselors in schools and violence prevention programs. Such funds were used for mental health aid for students and teachers in the Newtown, Conn., school district following the deadly shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012.




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When asked about the proposed cuts, Liz Hill, an Education Department spokeswoman, said the department is "committed to providing resources, direct support and technical assistance to schools who have suffered unthinkable tragedy."

The budget request calls for a $25 million reduction in funds designated for national school safety activities, compared with 2017. President Donald Trump's budget would eliminate altogether a $400 million grant program that districts can use, for example, to prevent bullying or provide mental health assistance.






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Trump's budget would also zero out the School Emergency Response to Violence program, known as Project SERV — funded at $1 million in 2017 — that in years past provided millions in funds used by the district in Newtown. However, Hill said that the grant program's funds carry over from year to year and the department projects that a current $5.2 million balance will be sufficient to meet needs through the next fiscal year.

Kenneth Trump, a school safety consultant who is not related to the president, said existing programs are useful for districts, and the proposed cuts should be thwarted.

But he said the reality is that the federal school safety programs available today pale in comparison to those rolled out after the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado, which shocked the nation and trained attention on school violence. Those programs focused on emergency planning in schools, bolstering school-based mental health, and putting more police officers in place. He said those initiatives were slowly rolled back during the George W. Bush and Obama administrations.

The Trump budget would eliminate “project prevention grants” as part of its proposal that would cut $25 million in national school safety activities. Those grants have directed millions to school districts with pervasive violence to help pay for activities like counseling and conflict resolution.

The budget would also reduce funds for so-called school climate transformation grants, but use $43 million of the grant money left to place a priority on opioid addiction prevention work in schools, although non-drug addiction programs could also receive funding.


While Kenneth Trump said Project SERV grants such as those used in Newtown are helpful, he said they only address one part of a complex issue, and that's helping with the aftermath of a tragedy.

He said the polarizing debate over gun control “shuts conversations down" and it has kept Congress from moving forward on funding prevention and assistance programs.

Scott Sargrad, a former Education Department official in the Obama administration who serves as the managing director of K-12 education policy at the Center for American Progress, said grant programs may not directly stop a tragedy like Wednesday’s school shooting, but “these are the kinds of things that can help students, staff and teachers respond and recover.”

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/opinion...ion/1086293001/

This was in the Tallahassee paper about 3 weeks ago


When it comes to school violence, it’s not a matter of if, but when. The tragic shootings in Texas and Kentucky last week prove that we are in a critical condition.

Every day, parents send 2.5 million kids to school in Florida and place their safety into the hands of school administrators, staff and teachers. Kids deserve to feel safe and secure in our care. We have got to be better equipped to guarantee the safety of all students.

The Florida Association of School Administrators is fighting for an increase in Safe Schools funding and did so in a presentation to the state Board of Education back in July.

Gov. Rick Scott’s proposed 2018-2019 education budget included a $10 million increase in Safe Schools funding. We applaud him for making this a priority and taking action.

Florida schools currently receive $64 million in Safe Schools funding, which is more than $10 million less than the 2002-2003 fiscal year — yet there are 303,497 more students enrolled in Florida schools.


The Florida Senate has graciously heeded the governor’s recommendation and included a $13.7 million increase in Safe Schools funding. The House has included no increase in theirs.

Data from the 2016-17 school year is unavailable at this time but according to the Florida Department of Education, for years 2013 to 2015 the average number of gun-related incidents in schools was 121.

To combat school violence, we must take advantage of new technologies that promote safe schools. For example:
•“Social net watchers” look for dangerous terms being associated with schools on social media and alert school administrators to threats;
•Alert systems and mass messaging software can help schools spring into action when a threat arises;
•Digital programs that teach internet responsibility are particularly useful when it comes to cyberstalking and bullying;
•Visitor management systems help School Resource Officers keep unwanted school visitors out;
•Entry control equipment can help school staff keep doors locked;
•Metal detectors and X-ray machines keep entrances safe and keep guns out of schools; and
•Panic buttons send messages to every administrator in a building alerting them of danger.

We can only take advantage of these systems with adequate funding.

School violence seems to be the new normal. The Kentucky school shooting was the 11th of the year, and it is only February. Increasing Safe Schools funding could eradicate this.

The Florida House should support the governor’s recommendation of a $10 million increase in Safe School funds now.

We have a grave responsibility to keep the boys and girls in Florida schools safe from harm, but we cannot do it alone. We need the support and funding of our elected officials in the Florida Legislature to bring about real change to a growing problem with today’s society.

Bill Lee is president of the Florida Association of School Administrators and director of operations for Washington County Schools.

A single armed school resource officer somewhere on the campus at Parker is not armed security. It is a joke.

He never even made contact with the shooter.

Drop your agenda and make the kids safe.

Then wash your hands.

Suspected High School Shooter Has Reported History of Animal Abuse

The FBI has identified cruelty to animals as a warning sign of more violence to come, and many school shooters and serial killers have a history of abusing animals.

https://www.peta2.com/news/suspected-high-school-shooter-reported-history-animal-abuse/

State Investigated School Shooting Suspect After Self-Harm

The Miami Herald obtained records from Florida’s Department of Children and Families and reported Saturday that Nikolas Cruz posted a video on the social media network Snapchat showing him cutting his arms in 2016.

https://www.courthousenews.com/state-investigated-school-shooting-suspect-after-self-harm/

Deputies called to suspected shooter’s home 39 times over seven years

https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/deputies-called-to-suspected-shooters-home-39-times-over-seven-years/

Nikolas Cruz said he wanted to be 'professional school shooter' to YouTube blogger months ago

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...ticle-1.3822163

Here's one I have heard is to hire unemployed Vets to be security. It's a win win.

That's fine, but it's NOT a mental illness.

You know. Something diagnosable, as described in the Psychiatry DSM.

See, the thing is, if he doesn't have an illness, then sending him to a hospital does zero good. It's like treating the flu with a antibacterial. All they would do is pump him up with meds and put him in group therapy. Do you really think that is gonna help?

He needed to get his ass sent to juvie, and let them break his ass.

You don't want to make them safe, you want to give them the illusion of safety at school.. but you have no answers when it comes to actually fixing the problem of WHY American's kill each other at a 3rd world country level... or why this dramatic escalation in mass shootings is occurring.. you don't care.

You are a one-trick pony with the same answer to every question.. more guns, we need more guns, everybody should have guns, we need armed guards with more guns, bigger guns.. if the good guys have more guns and bigger guns than the bad guys then what could possibly go wrong?

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High has fences, gates and emergency procedures to keep students safe, but a determined gunman found a way around them.

He came when he knew the gates would be open and set off a fire alarm that would dismantle a safety system, officials say. And the school resource officer, who is supposed to help protect students, may not have been on school grounds at the time.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/browar...0215-story.html

Those darn AR15's gotta be the guns fault then.

That's a nothingburger response.

Your article references another incident where 19 were killed from stabbing. Which shows that if you pass gun control measures, these incidents will not go away, they will just use something else. How do we stop bad people that plan to do bad things? Focusing just on gun control isn't solving the larger problem imo.

Not only that but since schools are public, which means government, you make it so all FBI, Federal Marshals, ICE, ATF and DEA agents, upon graduation, serve a mandatory first six months in public schools.

Are you advocating that armed, trained-to-kill personal patrol every school in the U.S?

Is this where society is heading?

No no no, this is where society has arrived!

What is your master plan to help resolve this issue?

No need to put it to theory. Japan already does it. They have significantly fewer firearm deaths per capita (0.06 per 100k) than we do (10.54 per 100k).

And since people can get guns in Japan it's telling that they have gun owners and have far less firearm deaths than we do.

One person stabbing 19 people on assisted living is much easier than 19 able bodied teenagers. Even so , that tragedy happened in 2016 and was the worst mass murder case since WW2 in Japan, and one of only 3 in 15 years. The mass murder in Florida isn't even the worst mass murder case in the last 365 days in the good ol USA.

Will people find methods to kill others? Of course. Does that mean we should do nothing? That's crazy. People are saying mental health not guns, so why would it be unreasonable to tie gun purchases and usage to mental health evaluation and training?

gage, I think you are very intelligent.

However, we can't just pick one thing as the key to these murders. There are so many factors involved. It's not just gun control. It's not just mental illness. It is also social isolation. It is also lack of accountability. It is also lack of consequences for poor behavior. It is also having the world's information at our fingertips, yet living w/out true human interaction. It is also about the fall of the American family. It's about a Godless society [and I don't believe in God.] It's about people who put themselves above all others and then bring children into the world. I could go on and on.

This is a complex and volatile issue that has no clear-cut answers or solutions. We need to stop w/the easy fix solutions and roll our sleeves up and attack this issue w/everything we have.

The questions are tough. The plausible answers might not be tolerable for the bleeding hearts. But damn man, we're killing our children. And I am not just talking about shootings. I am talking about the rapid increase of teen suicides. Male suicides have risen by 30% in the last decade and female suicides have increased by over 50%.

Hello...............is anyone out there?

How do we protect these children?

In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion [1] , there are over 3,000 abortions per day. Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies in the USA (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. [2]

http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

Sorry Vers, it's absolutely not allowed to be some combination of all of that because there is no way I could fit that into a funny meme or on a bumper sticker. Please pick one, dig your heels in, and defend it.

I stopped in briefly tonight for one reason.. I need to apologize to 40 (and maybe others)...

In the course of this emotional discussion I accused you of not caring about the safety of students and that's wrong on my part. I'm sure you do care about the safety of the kids... now we may someday reach some agreement in how best to make things better and we may not, that's irrelevant. But I broke my own rule about not resorting to hyperbole or making personal character attacks and for that, I'm sorry. Though we may disagree on the method, I will assume you seek the same outcome that I do... and that's far fewer kids dying from senseless violence.

Have a good night.

Can somebody please explain to me why the abortion issue is consistently brought up in these mass shooting threads?

Is the thought process that because abortion is legal that teenagers (and adults) extrapolate that out to figure that shooting other people is somehow ok?

If that's the argument then I'm not buying it.. I have my own views on abortion but I honestly see no correlation between that issue and mass shootings....

Saving children's lives isn't that the goal?

But what do the two have to do with each other? What is the correlation? Is the cause of mass shootings and abortion the same? If so, then let's talk about that case. Is the way to avoid those deaths the same? If so, then let's talk about the common steps we can take to reduce abortions AND mass shootings... because I don't see anybody bringing up abortion as a way to discuss cause or prevention in conjunction with mass shootings.. all I see is, "If you don't care about those, why do you care about these?"... and that's just totally unproductive. It's kind of like bringing up traffic fatalities... it seems more like deflection than actually trying to make correlation to discuss ways to prevent the death of kids... It's almost like "Kids die in a variety of ways, therefore gun control shouldn't be discussed." and I'm not understanding that logic.

And I've noticed that most folks don't post random threads on what we need to do to stop abortion... until a mass shooting thread appears, then suddenly it becomes a topic of discussion....

Killing children. 3000 a day abortion...17 mass shooting it all needs to stop.

You didn't answer any of my concerns about why they belong in the same thread though...

Reducing/eliminating abortion, stopping mass shootings, curing childhood cancer, making cars safer to reduce traffic fatalities are all noble conversations to have.. but as far as I can tell, they all have different causes and different potential cures...

So I'm still stuck with why abortion always gets dragged into the mass shooting debate.

Maybe we should focus on keeping the ones walking around alive there comrade. Post like this make me feel like the Trump-Russia popaganda machine is alive and thriving.

My issue is with weapons that are semi-automatic and have large capacity magazines.

There is a reason that we see that these weapons are used over and over. They are effective at killing as many people as quickly as possible. The magazines can be quickly changed and that is a problem as well. And you don’t have to be mentally ill to understand that this is easy to figure out..

I have come to believe that the mental heath claim is without real merit. It is an after the fact rationalization, as there is little evidence that would ever support that these individuals who commit these crimes merit restriction. It is a rabbit hole with ends at the second amendment right.

So we can look around and try to figure out who missed what warning sign, but you can’t ignore the fact that we allow these killing devices to exist without restriction and that is has violated our right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those who are victims of the crimes no longer have a voice in the matter, but I believe others should carry their message forward.

Bingo!!!

No law maker would take the responsibility for defining the criteria....it would end end up being zero tolerance guidelines. See a doctor for baby blues....second class citizen....lose a chilf or parent in auto accident and seek help...second class citizen....see a kid get ate up in a wood chipping accident and need help....second class citizen.

Create second class citizens will cause many to forgo help and create bombs....we have tried to move away from mental health stigmatization only to return full circle. I know what crazy is...you know what crazy is...and the vast majority of people seeking mental health treatment are not crazy....

However...I have to wonder if the push to normalize mental health treatment and to get nearly 100% of return vets a mental health disability rating is not an intentional end game to limit gun ownership by making any mental health treatment an automatic disqualified....followed by what...the right to vote??

What is the acceptable magazine size over 1???? Is it 10, cause indirectly if it’s a mag issue and then offer up an acceptable mag number it kinda of indirectly say that 3-6 deaths is acceptable.