DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Josh Rosen

I'm with you. I think Rosen is no doubt the best QB in the draft.

I agree that he is the best qb, but I don't think we are drafting him.

Depressing as hell.

Hopefully you're wrong on one of these two things

No doubt? ...

Please define “no doubt” for me ...

Does “no doubt” mean u think:

1. Rosen is head and shoulders above Darnold (or insert who u think is #2 behind Rosen) and its a NO-BRAINER to take Rosen ...
2. Rosen is slightly better than Darnold and you want Rosen but would be fine and understand if we take Darnold ...
3. Somewhere in between those two extremes ... u can define that yourself for me ..

Just curious as to how big a diff u think there is ...

Ty sir ..

I'm just not going to jump to conclusions either way. I mean, if I end up having to be depressed because I feel we passed up the best QB in the draft, I may as well wait five weeks to do it. lol

I'll answer why I think Rosen is the best qb in the draft. We have discussed qb attributes in the past and we discussed them briefly in the Darnold thread.

1. Accuracy: I don't think anyone is even close to Rosen in terms of accuracy. I am not talking about completion percentage. I am talking about fitting the ball into tight windows when needed and throwing it in the perfect location to get his receivers YAC.

2. Post-snap reads. No one is asked to make the reads Rosen is. That isn't their fault because they aren't asked to do so, but Rosen has done it and does it well. I do question Darnold's decision making and Allen's is laughable.

3. Pre-snap reads. Herbstreit brought up how when UCLA plays the other 10 players are only concerned w/getting up, getting back to the huddle and to line up for the next play. The reason for this is Rosen handles everything. No cards. No nothing. They give the call[s] to Josh and he handles everything else. That's huge.

4. Pocket presence. Dude gets rid of the ball very quickly. He doesn't abandon the pocket at the first sign of pressure. He gets rid of it or manipulates it.

5. Anticipation. He is very good at not only reading his receiver, but also the defense. Darnold is next best, but not as good as Rosen.

I'm not going to mention arm strength and things like that because there are several guys w/physical gifts.

In summary, Rosen has already displayed that he can handle the nuances of the NFL game that some qbs never learn to master.

Unfortunately, I think there is almost zero chance we draft the guy.

Ill get into more detail in a few minutes ... before i do that ... i’d Like to make sure I understand what i just read ... as u well know .. what we type and what the person on the other end reads is way different ...

And i’m Not looking for a debate an argument ... I simply want to understand WHY u believe what u do ... the only way to do that is to ask questions and “challenge” u .. but thats not what i’m doing ...

Quick summary ... to make sure i understand ...

It sounds to me like the big differences between Rosen and Sam mentally are that Rosen has all ready proven he can make reads and Sam hasn’t ... its because Rosen can anticipate throws better than Sam ...

So Rosen is more advanced “mentally” than Sam ... and your not saying Sam can’t do those things he just hasn’t done them yet for whatever reason ...

Am i reading that right? .. if not, please elaborate ...

Not sure what category “getting rid of the ball quickly” falls into ... Josh is good at ... Sam not so good ... is that sumptin u think Sam can improve on? ...

I know some of this is hard to quantify ... just not sure how else to “measure” things ...

Now .. on the “physical” stuff ... u like Josh more cause

- he is extremely accurate ... how much more accurate do u think he is than Sam? ... is Sam close? .. is it something u believe Sam can improve on? ...

- u think Sam “gives up” on plays to soon ... not sure how accurate that description is ... guess i’ll start there and see where u take it ... *L* ...

Josh manipulates the pocket where as Sam escapes the pocket to soon for lack of better terms .. is that correct and if so, u think thats fixable? ...

I think that Rosen and Darnold are the only two qbs that have demonstrated they throw w/anticipation. I think the difference is that Rosen goes through his progressions more quickly and that he sees the field better than Sam. Sam misses the safety at times. I also think they are different at the LOS. I tried to relay the Herbstreit story. I hope it made sense.




I think there are some things he hasn't been asked to do, but his reads are slower and he gets confused by coverages more often. I will say that Rosen plays hero ball at times like Josh. Both guys think they can make any throw and they get picked.



It's all about the reads. I think it's hard to get a guy to make quicker reads, but the Virtual Reality thing has me intrigued.




Rosen's accuracy is about as good as it gets. He reminds me of Jimmy G in that way. The ball placement is incredible. Sam is not inaccurate. He makes some astoundingly accurate throws, but there are times when he sails the ball. I think you can fix his lower body mechanics and that will help. I think it's really hard to change the upper body mechanics, especially the throwing motion.




I think Sam looks to abandon the pocket and Josh looks to throw from the pocket. It's fixable if a guy is willing to change his game.

I will also add this. Josh is taller than Sam. Josh weighs more than Sam. Josh has bigger hands that Sam. Josh is more developed and is a very cerebral qb. Not sure why we would rather draft any of the projects over Josh.

I am NOT asking anyone to agree, but you did ask the question as to why Josh is the best qb in the draft. I tried to answer honestly, logically, and w/intelligence. That doesn't mean I expect anyone to agree.

FYI, Rosen and Jim Mora didn't exactly see eye to eye on a ton of issues. Also, Jim Mora was a horrible head coach who botched his three years with a once in a lifetime QB, we shouldn't be listening to anything he is saying.

Thanks for the reply ...appreciate the time u took .... u were as clear as u can be on here ... pretty sure i understood everything the way u meant it ..... i’m just trying to understand the WHY’S behind your thoughts on the differences and how big u think the gap is ... no other motives for me ...

I’ll have some more questions and looking for more insights in a bit ...

Thanks again ...

The interview I saw with Jim Mora said great things about Josh Rosen. Said he sleeps over at his house, and that they're very close.


Makes me wonder if Josh was dating Mora's daughter or something

If this is true, their relationship is very different than when Rosen was in school.

Concussions... That is what I do not like about Rosen.

People who are worried about concussions with Josh Rosen should be worried about concussions with every player.

Most players don't have a "concussion history". Most players don't suffer two concussions in a four game span.

It took forever to find out exactly when each occurred but here's the video for each injury... For some reason there are no vids of just the injuries (I thought is was a conspiracy during the first hours of my search lol)

VS Washington the concussion occurred on the first play of the game (as verified by Rosen). If this kind of contact scrambles this dude's egg - he won't last a year in the NFL.

Rosen concussion vs. Washington 10:22



VS Cal, he is thrown down like a rag doll. His head makes significant contact with the ground, but I don't think most people would view the play and think "wow, this guy just got a concussion".

Rosen concussion vs. California 1:02:22




EVERYTHING Vers and others (who are proponents) say about Rosen is true. Head and shoulders better at playing "quarterback" than the other prospects.

Hopefully this kid finds a good home and has a great NFL career. It won't be in Cleveland, no way this franchise can afford to take this risk. Three NFL concussions and this dude is cashing in his chips - book it.

So the fact hes been diagnosed with concussions twice in the last 6 months shouldn’t be a bigger concern than for guys that have NOT BEEN DIAGNOSED with concussions that cause them to leave the game ... ...

WOW ...

I've never had a high opinion of Jim Mora Jr. I think I understand what he was trying to say.....Rosen's outspoken and politically conscious personality fits easier in NYC then Cleveland.

But he said it in such a stupid way that his comments can easily be spun in a negative fashion for Rosen.

It would be a suspect comment IF i thought Mora knew better....but i'm not sure he does.

I don't know if he is or isn't. I do know he is good.

The key in drafting players is projecting where they might be in 3 years. Just because he is the most polished at this point doesn't mean he will be in 3 years.


I am not knocking him at all. I am just saying what a GM thinks.

I like Rosen, and he is good enough now. But it's the fact that he is so polished at this point that makes me suspect that he has less room for growth than other prospects.

j/c:

Having an intelligent conversation on here is almost impossible. I can't believe I wasted all that time trying to explain things only to have the thread return to the same BS.

lol, what makes you think he won't improve?

Just wondering. As he sees more, experiences more, understands what NFL Defenses are trying to do more, how is he not going to improve?

He's already very accurate. He's already got a strong arm. He's already got a quick release. That's a great thing. So he's already there.


But what he can improve upon, which I don't think there's much of a ceiling on, is his understanding of the game. And that's the difference between some players and others. His overall knowledge of the game.

I've said before on here, Tom Brady once said that he didn't want to retire, because he felt like he was taking the test and had the answer key.


Rosen's a very intelligent guy. He throws with anticipation. He is far ahead of the other prospects in terms of making reads. But what makes you think he won't just get better and better at that? Because that's a huge factor in terms of being a quality NFL QB

You have explained your point of view very well. And I agree that, at this moment in time, Rosen is the best of the class. But in my point of view, Rosen being so advanced in his technique is what sets him apart. It is also my view that technique is the area that allows for the most improvement from college to the NFL.

Darnold sees the field, he's accurate, he leads his receivers into YAC. I don't see that Rosen is 'head and shoulders' advanced in that area. They both threw INTs. Darnold fumbled more, an area that can be improved by technique.

I think that 2-3 years from now, Darnold has a legitimate chance of being the better QB. It's my opinion and I don't ask you to share it.

Yes, Rosen can improve, but all the areas he can improve in, other can and will as well. The area where others can, and will, improve is in technique, an area where Rosen is already so advanced that he doesn't have much room to improve.

Again, I never said he can't or won't improve. I just think that he has less room too improve.

Yes, of course.

Because he's a better QB................. That doesn't mean his ceiling is any lower than anyone else

"That doesn't mean his ceiling is any lower than anyone else" It doesn't make it automatically higher either.

As tab points out, Dorsey has way more experience and way more information than any of us at picking players. He has a proven track record for team building. He will make his decision and I trust him to make a good decision. If he thinks Rosen is the guy, I trust that. If he think Darnold is the guy, I trust that. I will trust whomever he picks.

It's not that I don't like Rosen, I just like Darnold more, and that is my point of view.

I guess. Doesn't change that I have my own observations and analysis.


And don't get me wrong, I like Darnold too. I have Rosen as the highest though. And almost using a negative that he's further along, seems ridiculous to me. He's already shown an ability to do something which, we don't know, that Sam Darnold will ever be as good at. And it's one of the most vital parts of the game



I agree though. Trust in Dorsey. But if he picks Josh Allen, I will say, my faith will be tested. Really tested

This seems to be the dominant thread on QB's, so I'm putting this here ...


https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/...-allen-at-no-1/

Chris Mortensen: Browns will select either Sam Darnold or Josh Allen at QB


By: Jeff Risdon
March 27, 2018


Reporting from the NFL owners meetings in Orlando, ESPN’s Chris Mortensen declared the Cleveland Browns have narrowed down the quarterback options to just two. Mort, one of the most respected NFL insiders, reports the Browns will choose between Sam Darnold from USC and Wyoming’s Josh Allen with their first pick in the 2018 NFL Draft.

That would rule out Josh Rosen and Baker Mayfield, the other two presumptive top quarterbacks in the class.

Darnold had recently emerged as the popular favorite to be the No. 1 pick, even being endorsed by Rosen’s collegiate coach, Jim Mora Jr., this week.

A large Browns contingency, including owner Jimmy Haslam and GM John Dorsey, toured the pro days of all the top prospects last week.

Whoever winds up being the pick, they will sit behind veteran Tyrod Taylor to start the 2018 NFL season.

It really annoys me when I take the time to express my thoughts on the subject only to have them dismissed as if I don't know what the hell I am talking about.

Screw it!

People aren't interested in actually talking the nuances of the position and then dismiss those that do while not saying a freaking word to people who just make crap up.

PAY ATTENTION TO ME

That isn't what I'm saying. I am saying that people are making crazy arguments w/out researching and when I try and take the time to explain things after researching.......I have posters acting like it doesn't matter.

Whatever...........y'all carry on. I'm done.

Like I said earlier, there are a ton of posters making stupid ass claims and it galls me that I get criticized for making a logical post after watching the actual games. And guys who say Lamar should go number one don't get questioned. LOL

I'm done w/the qb discussions. I don't believe that people are interested in intelligent debate and if one provides a logical take, the response is that none of know anything and we have to leave it up to Dorsey. Of course, no one says that when some genius says that Mayfield is the most pro-ready qb in the draft.

Have fun w/the dolts.

Smokescreen or real? I can't imagine that they would let this be known with possible trade downs on the table.

It's possible they are trying to put that out there to someone like the Giants to give up stupid picks for the #1 so that they can take Darnold ... and also bump up the price of Allen at #4 if they take Darnold #1 anyway. Maybe entice the Broncos to swap picks to get the guy that the Browns "considered" at #1?

I missed the stupid ass claims that occurred after your informative take on Rosen being the best QB in this draft. I did enjoy reading your take, as Bone said as well. All I saw after your post was claims about Rosen's concussions. I don't think those claims are stupid. I think they're valid.

But to reiterate, I like reading what you have to say on Rosen. I think the only thing I do not agree with you on is the value on Herbstreit's comment. I never liked that guy