DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum John Dorsey's Cleveland Browns making use of analytics after all

a couple of random intersections in my thoughts on the subject

As a Dodger fan I shared concern but mainly interest when depodesta was hired - I thought the internal workings and modernization of the Dodger organization was better for his time but his time was incomplete.

based on the value the browns have been receiving on their player moves, the professionalism of the organization (we are still digging out of that hole and our owner doesn't help) --- but based on a basic assessment, our organization is better with depodesta

Depodesta is strategy - not analytics, not player evaluations (his comments on wentz should have stayed in his head).

Organization seems to get stronger annually - I wouldn't be opposed to Depodesta getting any of Jimmy's responsibilities (is our owner our weakest link?)

They seem to be making smart moves without selling the farm I hope it continues and we see the positive results on the field. Interested in seeing how the new O and how the D looks with the new additions may be Peepers closer to the line.

One of these guys was doing calculus, or trying to do so, and read some tea leaves. Hue brought some of his grief on himself by insisting on Kizer despite performance and with marginal improvement. Hue was playing sudoku at best.

And he told me I hijacked the thread. LOL

And I think that neither you nor ddub are correct. Here is why.

From day one Sashi had a plan and that plan you ma ask was what?

A: Tank

To that end he was successful, he aimed low and hit his mark. He was no fool either the steps he took to insure that we tanked were obvious.

I said going into last season I thought he let Haden go to insure we would lose, and guess what we did just that. He wasn't about to take a chance that our defense would be good enough to win a game or games. Everyone in this league would hope to employ Corners with Joe's ability and we let him go. Its impossible IMO not to take that single move and see what it was all about.

He put a QB room together made up of guys who had never won so much as a game. But here IMO is the kicker I think Sashi would have been fine with the Browns winning games last year but not because of the defense.

What does that mean? Well if we won it was going to be because DK played better then expected, anything short of that and we lose.

To sum up I think Sashi was very good at evaluating talent and more importantly he understood how to sabotage a roster enough to insure they lose. He had a plan and it played out just like he wanted it too.

I know that there are likely many who won't agree and thats fine but I am totally convinced I am 100% on this.

Sashi was no fool he worked his plan, as painful as it was to watch I think it worked.

How dare you.


That couldn't have been his ultimate end-all goal. So what do you think his end goal was and how does tanking accomplish that?

He stockpiled picks and cap space and would be the one using them right now instead of Dorsey.

Don't you find it annoying when you have to point out the obvious to a dufus who completely overlooks it? lol

That isn't so obvious to a lot of people.

I do think that tanking was the plan, but I also believe the intent was to build a war chest to attract the best GM and let him to the picking. In 2016, with the state of the team at that point, no GM worth his salt would come near the Browns. Sachi stripped the team down to the studs, added a good (well, decent but young) foundation, and built a collection of cap space and draft picks that would make any GM drool.

I think he went too far in some areas, and that resulted in his being fired. But I think the plan was to hire a true GM in 2018 all along.

I'd love to comment on the plan, but I am so sick of the BS fighting on here. Maybe I'll pm you.

You needed to make a post to tell Dub you’ll pm him? Why not just pm him?

If you were a thinking man, you could figure it out w/out me telling you, just as I can figure out why chose to question my post.

Neither is hard to figure out.

Yet the ridiculousness continues...

Where's the drama in that?

Huh? The plan wasn't to lose. That is ludicrous, but even if it was the plan he'd still be here, wouldn't he?

The things Sashi did the past two seasons will forever be underappreciated and completely misunderstood.

Sashi had his faults, but he did a lot more good than bad for this franchise.

he turned us into a expansion team in 1 year... whats to misunderstand?

What Sashi did was TORTURE ... it was PURE HELL ... no doubt it really STUNK ....

But he did not turn us into an expansion team ... expansion teams dont have the talent on them we did ast year ... u cant deny ... Ogbah, Kirksey, Collins, Shelton, MG, Zietler, Trettier, Bitino, Joe and Gordon and some with potential .. they dont have the 1st and 4th picks and 5 in the first 64 ... they dont have the ability to trade for Jarvis Landry or Tyrod Taylor or make many of the other moves we made ....

Sashi’s big mistake was no QB .. if we made the TT trade last year I think we would have won 4 - 6 games last year .... then Sashi would still be here ... and THANK GOD HES NOT ...

As bad as it was ... ITS OVER NOW .... can we please move on and ENJOY TODAY .....

Thanks and GOOD BYE SASHI ......

The goal wasn't to lose, it wasn't to have the #1 overall pick. But there are always going to be those who want to believe that narrative.

when you get rid of all but 4 starters and 4 backup players in 1 year... fill the roster with draft and undrafted players... pretty much has the makeup of a expansion team no matter how you suger coat it.

Agreed. The record was simply an unfortunate and unforseen by-product of The Plan...

I disagree ... the record was directly correlated to the qb room ...

If we have a qb we win 4 - 6 games ... Sashi did not understand the value of veterans .... that was clear .... but NO QB is why we went winless and its what cost him his job ...

I always said it was a good plan that the execution was the key .... well if sashi would have executed getting a QB here last year he’d still be here ... and i don’t think any of us that have a clue want that .... ...

I have hard time believing anyone at this juncture wouldn't see it as tanking.

As odd as it is we are now witnessing an influx of veterans and its a big part of the reason many of us believe the push is now on to win.

I am not faulting Sashi for what he did, I said it from the beginning while many of you denied it even bet with me in some cases and it turned out I wasn't just right but dead right.

We had a core of good solid players prior to the dismantling, and now over the course of the past few weeks we are balancing out the youth with vets, but here IMO is the kicker while some of the vets we are bringing in are noticeably worse then the young talent we kicked to the curb a few years back. Yet we see hope in balance, or I do anyway! WHY?

There isn't a coach in the NFL that doesn't place value on vet leadership and knowing how to win at this level. We cut all of that out. So if the plan as you say wasn't to tank it sure as hell looks like it.

Any objective individual that is capable of separating themselves from being a fan for a moment would IMO easily reach the same conclusion. In fact it was widely written about heading into last season by the national press.

SMH can't believe anyone would deny something so obvious.

Sure Vambo. You can have the last word. I mean that's what it's all about for you, right?

I didn't buy into tanking as the plan. But I was questioning what Bad to the Bone was getting at when he claimed that was the plan. I asked, why tank?, and Dep suggested that it was to stockpile picks and money to make a big push this season. That should have been obvious to me that that was the goal in tanking, but it wasn't.

I don't think anyone tanks, at least not to the point of an 0-16 season and surely not the plan at the beginning of the season. At the end of the season, having won only a few games and already slotted to the #1 draft spot, maybe a team doesn't want to lose that slot so they play the youngsters to "see what they got". But that would be at the end of the season with a result already in sight, like the Colts and their "Suck for Luck" campaign.

I admit that having a QB room with no NFL wins was certainly not conductive to winning. There should have been a vet/bridge to start the season, at least that. He left the QB room with the blind leading the blind. That was a big mistake. But it makes sense if he was as afraid to decide on a vet the same as he was afraid on a draft pick QB.

You see, I surmise that since picking a QB was such a huge, HUGE, HUGE decision that that's where he folded in fear of making a mistake.

I think his biggest mistake was not taking a QB period. What would make this offseason so special? It's not like we weren't at the top of the draft before like we are now. We had pick #2 and traded out, afraid to take Wentz, (who I didn't want, but do now... lol).

And then we had pick #1 and #12 but did nothing toward a QB. I totally wanted Garrett and we got him. But we still had pick #12 and could have moved up or had taken Watson, (whom I didn't want, and still don't). But still.

I think Sashi was afraid to pull the trigger on a QB. Regardless of whatever Hue's input may or may not have been, it was Sashi's job to get a QB for us and he failed terribly. I think he didn't know how to evaluate one and so was also unsure what to think of any of the input he got from others. Had he been otherwise he would have made a pick instead of always pushing the decision off to the next year... and then the next.

Who knows what he would have done this year if given the chance. His time for avoiding the decision was over.

I think Haslem was hesitant to wait and see how Sashi would react this time, (Pull a name out of a hat? Ask a homeless guy?). So he went and got a GM with experience to make the QB pick. Dorsey might not get it right either, but he dang sure won't hesitate to pull the trigger.

I just realized this should have been in the "Thanks Sashi" thread but I'm going to hit submit anyw

I think he had a QB in mind and that QB was in this QB heavy draft. Getting a QB without much of a team around him might have got us a few more wins last year but wasn't going to help us long term. (especially if we didn't like that QB long term)

Hue not tripping over a few wins didn't help the matter and when Hue decided to recruit his daughter and o-line coach into his "him or me" stance to force Jimmy's hand, Jimmy had to make a choice.

Hue earned being fired himself, but firing another coach would mean starting over yet again with a new coaches scheme. I don't think Jimmy wanted to make any changes at all this season, but when forced, he decided to plug a different GM into the existing front office and neuter the head coach a bit that cost him a few wins last year.

The QB situation may have been a deciding factor for the fans, but I am pretty certain that Jimmy was both informed and in agreement with the thought process used to form our QB group last year. I don't think he fired Sashi for the QB, I think he fired Sashi because of the ultimatum.

People never speak for themselves. They must be recruited to have an opinion.

That's your take, but you don't know if it's true. My take is that both were fed up w/Sashi's constant BS and spoke up out of frustration.

The difference between us is that I will say my take is an opinion while you state yours as a fact.

Is that a thread hijacK? LOL

I thought real football guys would never be caught dead with that hussy Anna Lytics.

No we didn't. I really don't understand this take. A lot of the guys on that 2015 team aren't even in the NFL any more.

I don't think Browns fans realize how bad things were. I know I didn't. I can think of a couple players we "let get away" but nothing that resembles a "core of good solid players."

We were bad. Very bad. I don't agree that your take was correct or even "dead right" as you claim.

There is a lot of made up b.s. I think if you read the articles, listen to what the organization was saying, it's easy to see what they were trying to do. And it wasn't tanking.

Why u blasting me with this? ... I NEVER SAID that was the plan ... i said the FAULT with what sashi did was NOT GETTING A QB ... if he got a QB we would have won 4 - 6 games last year ... and Sashi is still here ... how do U CORRELATE that to me saying the plan was to tank ... THATS BS ....

WTF ... your as bad as your buddy Vers ... either that or u need to learn how to type in ..... j/c ....

PLEASE RESPOND to the folks that your RESPONSE IS APPROPRIATTE FOR ... thats clearly NOT ME FOR THIS POST ....

He even put a like on Deputy's highjack! lmao

I guess it's really not about high jacking the thread at all. It's all dependent on who you are and what you say when it gets high jacked.

I don't think losing was the plan, I think losing was a the foreseeable byproduct of the plan. It might be a poor analogy, but the soldier who jumps on the grenade to save his buddies didn't plan to die, it was the foreseeable byproduct of saving his buddies.

The Browns plan was to strip down the team, rebuild a solid foundation while building salary cap and draft capital. They did that knowing there would be a lot of losing, and they accepted that as a consequence. It wasn't the goal.

(edit - sorry, I was typing while ya'll were trying to get the thread back on track. My bad.)

How am I supposed to have any confidence in a man that can't even dress himself? This guy looks like he just lost 100lbs.

Ah, his dress uniform.

Ah yes, but Bill didn't even show up for this photo!