DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Roster Breakdown Continued (with PFF Grades)

Never said they should pass of Fitz or James b/c of Randall.

Only said that Randall was the top FS prospect in his class when he came out.

His measurables are right up there with Earl Thomas and he moved well enough at the combine to be considered for CB and as you know CBs typically have higher positional value then S.

Where would he be drafted as a S in this draft I have no idea.
Proly back end of the 1st somewhere between 15-32.

But IF Randall the draft prospect was in this class he would bring more actual college experience playing FS then both James and Fitz.

I wasn’t exactly sure what u were saying with your post .. u didn’t endorse him u just stated some facts ...

So who would u take at 4? ...

In this class ... he’d be the 3rd best FS prospect at best ...

Here’s what i found on Minkah ... this is the first one at the top of my google search ... i have no clue how good any of these guys are at this ... i don’t follow them ... never have ... but i liked what this guy had to say ... *L* ...

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2018MFitzpatrick.php

Strengths:
Instinctive
Extremely well-rounded
Tremendous coverage safety
Dangerous play-maker in the deep part of the field
A true single-high safety
Ball skills
Soft hands
Interception threat
Covers a ton of ground
Superb at covering receivers over the top
Fast enough to run with speed receivers
Good vision, eye discipline
Can play nickel corner
Can play man coverage on slot receivers
Can play man coverage on receiving tight ends
Asset to defend big receivers downfield
Dangerous blitzer
Solid run defender
Good tackler in the open field
Will get physical as a tackler
Can play near the line of scrimmage
Capable of being the eighth man in the box
Can drive and fill in the box
Always around the ball
Fluid; can flip his hips and run
Good special teams player
Should be able to play quickly
Has been a starter at corner
Quarterback of the defense
Experienced and successful against good college talent
Versatile
Team leader

Weaknesses:
Lacks ideal height
Lacks ideal speed

There’s more at the link ...

Now u go find the most glowing report on Randall from 15 ... then we’ll talk about the differences ..

isn't this where I am supposed to strike out because we disagree?? LOL

Actually your points are valid, I just this that ONCE IN AWHILE, I move Garrett inside to take some advantage of his length and lean to blow past a plodding guard and a center coming out of his stance.. that said yeah Garrett is special on the outside.

No worries I was responding to this:I was just saying that Randall was a top S prospect in his own right.

And prior to your conversation I was saying that having Randall on the roster moves Peppers down into the box and allows Peppers/Kindred to play the SS and Nickel LB/Mark Barron role (if Gregg brings that position back)

I think he'd be the 3rd "Safety" but the top pure FS prospect if that makes sense to you.

At 4? Barkley, Ward, Chubb

And I have James as my top S prospect

We agree on Ward .... *L* ....

I think your telling me that Randall would be the 3rd overall safety but the best PURE FS prospect ... if I interpreted that right ... my take is that you have James #1 and Fitz #2 as overall safeties ... but u don’t consider them PURE FS ... hence Randall’s spot atop the FS list ...

What do u consider James/Fitz ...

Your right ... moving them around a little once in a while is smart .... sometimes i get a little hard headed and it takes me awhile to come around ... *L* ... plus i really love Fitz’s FOOTBALL INTELLIGENCE ... to me its what makes the great ones TRUELY GREAT .... that dont come along often in the physical package Fitz has ... he sounds like a DC DREAM PLAYER ...

Football is a game of chess ... and Fitz is one hell of a CHESS PIECE to have ....

The board is so toxic right now bro ... i’ve never seen it like this ... EVER ... even in the beginning ... pre-mods ... we went at it like cats and dogs ... it got nasty ... not like this ... we used to talk football while taking our shots ... now its boiled down to just the shots ... and thats a shame ...

U know its bad when i’m acting civil ... *L* ...

I tend to lean towards Chubb, but I hear you when talking about Fitz. It's going to be hard to pass either one of those guys.

Fitz can play all over the backfield, and as you said, his eye for the game and intelligence set him apart. Add in the fact we don't really know how any these new guys are going to play, Fitz might be the guy.

I think Williams is going to have a lot of input on that pick, if we do go defense there.

Versatile, instinctive playmakers that have outstanding physical skillset to play S but will face a transition to FS. Both have experience (and impact) being used as matchup chess piece. They both bring a leadership, presence and mentality that helps any secondary/defense and team.

I have no problem taking Fitz. I think he's a good player but I think Randall will be a pretty good FS and that Chubb is just too good to pass up. My preferences for the #4 pick would be:

1 Chubb
2 Fitzpatrick
3 Ward
4 Trade Down
5 Barkley

At #4 Saquon Barkley if available needs to be the pick. He carries a max grade much like Myles Garrett did last year. While Chubb is a great player he is not the freak of an athlete Garrett was but Barkley is that kinda freak athlete. He is the best RB to come out of college in some time.

Chubb/Fitzpatrick/Ward would be the choice if Barkley somehow is not there.

I agree, he is going to have to beat Kindred out in my eyes. I know they both will play, and that keeps guys fresh. But, I am curious to see Peppers up close to the line. To me that is his natural position, same for Kindred. Peppers showed a little when the moved him at the end of the year. Time will tell, but I don't believe Williams is a guy that would play an inferior player just because of draft status.

I do like the thought of rotating those two in and out. Fresh legs on a safety blitz could help.

I'm really excited about Howard Wilson this year. If he's back and recovered, then it'll be another piece for the healthy competition we have at corner. Maybe even FS.

Sooo... as far as PFF grades (for what they are worth) concerning Peppers (who seems to have taken over the general thread):

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-dont-panic-top-10-players-who-can-bounce-back-in-year-2

8. Jabrill Peppers, S, Cleveland Browns

2017 overall grade: 45.5

Coming out of Michigan, depending on who you asked and at what time of day, you’d hear a different projection on what position Jabrill Peppers would play as a pro. One of the positions you wouldn’t often hear was “true free safety” – and ultimately that’s right where Peppers ended up for the Browns. Peppers lined up as a free safety for Cleveland on 88.2 percent of his defensive snaps through the first 15 weeks of 2017 – he spent just 3.0 percent of his snaps at free safety for Michigan in 2016 – and the results were ugly, as he finished just three games over that stretch with an overall grade of at least 70.0. An injury to Derrick Kindred late in the year caused the Browns to shake things up and in Weeks 16 and 17, Peppers played more of the swiss-army knife role he was accustomed to in college, spending just 32.1 percent of his snaps at free safety during that two week sample. Peppers posted an 81.5 overall grade in Week 17 against the Steelers and in Week 16 he posted his best run-defense grade of the year (83.0). If Cleveland can keep Peppers closer to the line of scrimmage in 2018 his grade will almost certainly be better in Year 2.

I will agree... seeing at Peppers again at FS would just be shameful. He belongs at SS where he can play close/as close to the line as possible. He was never ever suited at free safety.

I hope Peppers can prove me wrong because I was never on board with this since it was announced on draft day.

I hated the Peppers pick from the very second it was made. I hope that he can play SS at a high level, but I won't believe it until I see it. Maybe he can play a hybrid SS/LB in certain sub defenses. However, I don't have a lot of hope for him ever living up to his draft position.

Peppers has very bad tackling fundamentals, and most problematic is that he didn't show any signs of improvement. He cannot play SS the way he's been playing, he will just look foolish and probably be on IR frequently.

I know I'm a big critic of Peppers, but honestly its deserved, every time I see him throwing himself to tackle and looking pathetic, backpedaling on the snap when he is lined up deep, taking himself out of plays, etc

I'm not a big Kindred fan, be he has showed signs o improvement to the point of being one of the best players in our D.

Kindred was also one of the better players in the league. Ranking #1 for DBs in tackles for a loss. I'm not so sure peppers beats him out but I like the idea of having competition for playing time.

My fear is that we wind up starting Peppers over Kindred simply because of his draft pedigree.

I don't believe that's a concern at all. This FO didn't draft Peppers and has no ties or loyalty to the player. I do however believe people are jumping the shark since he was played completely out of position last year.

If we don't utilize Peppers differently, then I'm not sure how you could expect any type of different result regarding his performance/talent/etc. We may not even get a chance to see. I really feel Damarious Randall will ride that FS spot and Kindred will be back there with him, as above has been hinted. If Peppers becomes a sub package/special team player, then wow what a joke at #25 overall that was.

Peppers wouldn't even be here if not for the place he was drafted, he was that bad.

Also I cannot understand the argument of him playing out of position, since he never played FS nor SS, he would always play out of position.

Peppers tackling fundamentals are putrid, he does not know how to tackle to play closer to the LOS. He also has very bad awareness. You could see him backpedaling on the snap while playing deep safety, being slow to react to plays, taking himself out of plays while playing in a position that allows him to see the play developing. Even in special teams he showed very little field awareness...

Yes he is a physical player, but college level...with his technique he wont amount to much, specially because he has showed little improvement.

His position, IMHO, I honestly don't see him in any position. He has to step up his game,no matter which position he plays.

Not to mention he was a rookie...AND...playing out of position. Troy P looked like garbage his rookie year playing IN position. Who knows?

We were a bad team and he was a rookie playing out of position. He may end up being a bust...but it's ridiculously too early to call that at this point.

What makes you think Peppers is/was playing out of position..

IMHO, he was drafted to play FS,and he did play FS,so he was playing in position.

And how can Peppers ever play SS if he does not know how to tackle, and with all the rules against hits we have now, forget about him playing safety.

Also explain how a player who showed very lite instincts and reaction is going to improve by moving him to a position where the reaction times are lower?

And IMHO he was never an oversized Palomalu, he is an undersized Maualuga.

Derrick Kindred, a less talented player, was bad his rookie and made a huge jump his 2nd season.

But Peppers can't.

Derrick evolved his game. I was never his fan,nor am, but I'll give him that. You could see him improving his game to a level where he was a good SS, and one of the best players on the team. Improvement is key.

Peppers, on the other hand, who is supposed to be a very intelligent, knowledgeable player, kept on committing the same stupid mistakes he did in the start of the season, that's why I have serious reservations about him.

NFL game is to fast for him, he capped on college, to me that is evident.

First let us see if he can step up his game. Right now, IMHO, he is the worst player on the team, so he has to prove his worth.

So Peppers could improve in year 2 just like Kindred improved.

He could, but he isn't showing any signs of improvement. Its up to him to prove that he can, until then we should judge him for his production, which is miserable and not even worth this discussion.

This discussion was held in the case of Kizer,which not only played better than Peppers, but also had much more reasons to fail than him, yet very few made a case to start Kizer next year...

And yes, Peppers was/is that bad

I dunno...maybe the fact that he didn't play FS before joining the NFL? Shoot...the way he was asked to play the position was "out of position".

Do you not see how unusual it is for you to "see" the improvement in Kindred in year #2...but won't give Peppers the same benefit of the doubt after year #1?

No one knows today if Peppers has the chops or not to be worthy of his draft slot. Time will tell.

Kizer was not good in college and showed the exact same issues in the NFL that he had in college.

Peppers was an in-the-box, stud player in college (albeit without a true position) who played 25 yards off the ball in the NFL.

Kindred didn't show any signs of improvement until DURING HIS 2ND YEAR. You keep comparing Kindred's improvement to Peppers' lack of improvement...without recognizing that SECOND year.

Willie - you are wasting your breath.

rastanplan, how could he have “production” when he was set up in a position so far out of the play he was in a different zip code. by the time he got to the play it was over. let us see how his production is when he is actually positioned around the play.

it always seems like a lot of browns fans are ready to write players after their first season, as if the player they are as a rookie is the player they will with a couple of seasons of experience.

@ Willie: Kindred did evolve on the first season, hewasn't very good but he developed in several areas of the game. Peppers didn't.

@Keith.

I'm going to discount the fact that we drafted Peppers to play FS and say the following.

Playing deep had nothing to do with the stupid, idiotic tackles Peppers likes to perform, and that usually ends up with him looking like a fool,TD's and big plays allowed and some losses.

That idiotic way of tackling costed one team the SB,and costed us some games also...

Playing deep allows the player to better recognize the play and see it develop. Peppers has a problem recognizing plays and with field awareness. Go and look at his footage and you can see him lining up deep and still backpedaling on snap. Some of the deep plays we allowed, Peppers is nowhere to be seen.

Take a good look at the Gio Bernard TD, and the way Peppers approached the play...I would cut him on the spot just for that play alone.

Playing deep has nothing to do with not knowing how to tackle nor how to take the proper angle.

Peppers was much more athletic that the opposition in college, that's why he made a name for himself. On the NFL he is nothing special and all the problems many saw on him are actually happening.

So, at least give the credit,or the benefit of doubt to all of those who were saying Peppers was going to be a bust in the NFL.

I can see this take and would actually agree. Kindred came a long way his first year, while Peppers was still Peppers. I'm not saying Peppers was terrible, but I would never give up on him after one year.

And I would also say there's a difference when Peppers is playing a position he rarely if ever played in college... while Kindred played both safety positions in college. Kindred was refining his tools while Peppers was learning a new position.

I'm excited to see who wins the SS job.






I don't think Peppers was drafted to play FS.

@Device

Please take a good look at how Peppers played this season... his highlights would be enough, better the other teams highlights, since his blunders and idiotic plays were that much.

Regarding Peppers being drafted to play FS, I know its debatable, but the arguments, I think are on my side.

He did start and kept playing FS, you don't draft a SS and start him at the FS position, and we had no other viable player at FS, so unless you think the plan was to start the season without a FS, then the logic was that he was indeed drafted to play FS.

Remember that one thing where Peppers was recognized was his intelligence and knowledge of the game, and his adaptability which made him "perfect" to be Gregg's FS.


I wouldn't be this critical of him,if he showed he was improving his game. Play more disciplined, learn the fundamentals of tackling, avoid the highlight mentality, etc But all I saw was him making the same mistakes over and over.