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Yeah but Pit, according to Condon's desire for the 55x2/70x1 deal.
If Quinn plays 8-1/2 games in 2008 and 2009, or 11 games in either year, he gets his escalators.
Well,the two sides,from what has been mentioned are "far apart" on "this portion" of the contract. I don't think that will "be the deal". Each side will move somewhat towards the middle to one extent or the other.
And as I mentioned,by the "end of year three" of his contract,you seriously don't think we'll know "if he's the answer or wheather to move on"?
I'm just saying that if you give a guy "three seasons" to show his goods,don't you think you have a good idea if he's "the real deal"?
I'm not saying that he'll be "totally polished" but how about Couch? How long did it take to "really figure it out"? What about Charlie? he started "less than two complete seasons" and Phil knew it was "time to move on".
What I'm looking at is garuntees. Because you can cut him before the beginning of year four and "all you really get hit with" is the pro rated signing bonus. So why would you keep him at that point anyway? To upgrade your "back up QB position" with first round money?
I don't think the deal should be signed "as is" But there are two sides to the coin. On the flip side,you're asking BQ to gamble on the play, health,development and investment choices made by this team for his success under Phils guidelines.
What if BQ is doing a good job,but the OL and RB positions are injury plagued? Should he be penalized because we don't make it to the AFC Champoinship game because of this?
Look at KW2 last year. He had the numbers to be a pro-bowler didn't he? But he didn't get "the votes". Is that a realistic guideline for a player?
What I'm saying is there are two sides of the coin here. And I think each are being "somewhat unrealistic". It's not a one way street.I'm just trying to bring a little objectivity to the situation instead of adding to the "pile on effect".
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I really don't like the percentage of games played to be the huge selling point for the escalades... how hard will that be?? Hell if he got into camp on time he probably could have made the 55% one this year.
I'm ok with percentage played being PART of the escalades... but I don't want a guy to just show up to get a pay check.
<><
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Well,that's the whole thing. Neither side is going to get "exactly what they want". So while I think playing time "will be a portion of it" I don't think it will play as big a portion as "Condon is asking for". Right now from what's being reported,they each seem to be taking "their side" to the extremes. Let's face it,getting to the pro-bowl is a popularity contest. IMO- to try and base much of anything on a "pro-bowl appearance" is just about as extreme as basing it in large part strictly on playing time. There's a huge continent in the middle of these extremes with which to work. And I'm sure the end result won't land on either of the partys shoreline. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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yeah - i just hope the two sides can get together and hash this out... i'd like it if Quinn could get a little practice time before the season begins 
<><
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Quinn could hold out for the entire season... and the media will ask every week about him...
I think the media is spending too much time being worried about him... its making him even MORE overrated...
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.. Quinn's biggest problem will be RAC. when he finally has his Orange and Brown on .. Romeo is not going to take this hold out lightly ! 
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I think the media is spending too much time being worried about him... its making him even MORE overrated...
LOL,, what is there other than the Quinn Holdout for them to rag on? 
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I know exactly what you mean. It's a frustrating process and I'm frustrated by it too. I'm just trying to be objective enough to know that it's a two way street. And it's a business deal,nothing personal from either side. And when it's all over,you'll see Phil and BQ standing side by side talking about "how fair it all worked out". So in the mean while,I don't plan to get too worked up about it. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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j/c
I think Condon and crew(if the info is accurate) are right for holding out for the incentives and higher guaranteed $$. However I agree(again if the info is correct) with the FO that those incentives should be harder to accomplish. With our weak QB situation, Brady basically just needs to show up(ok it is not THAT easy but he will be the full time starter long before his 4th and 5th year)
I would rather see something like "If he throws for 8,000 yards by the end of year three". Or "If we make the playoffs while he is starting". ProBowls are way too subjective. So the escalators need to be based upon more objective terms...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
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According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Browns have made some progress in negotiations for quarterback Brady Quinn and are now only about $500,000 apart in guaranteed money. Quinn is seeking about $8 million in guaranteed money, same as the No. 20 overall pick, and the Browns have increased their guaranteed offer to about $7.5 million. From here
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According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Browns have made some progress in negotiations for quarterback Brady Quinn and are now only about $500,000 apart in guaranteed money. Quinn is seeking about $8 million in guaranteed money, same as the No. 20 overall pick, and the Browns have increased their guaranteed offer to about $7.5 million.
From here
This does not seem unreasonable to me.
Pay him, get him in camp.
I was talking giving him #15 money. #20???? That's practically a bargain! Take it, Phil. Get it done so he can play in the first preseason game.
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According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Browns have made some progress in negotiations for quarterback Brady Quinn and are now only about $500,000 apart in guaranteed money. Quinn is seeking about $8 million in guaranteed money, same as the No. 20 overall pick, and the Browns have increased their guaranteed offer to about $7.5 million.
From here
Yeah but this isn't the problem. It seems that they are far apart on incentives that could increase the contract value by 10 million
Condon wants the incentives to kick in if Quinn starts (shows up-we didn't spend a 1st rounder to let him ride the pine)
The Browns wants Quinn to actually preform to get the incentives...(playoffs, pro-bowls, super bowls...etc)
That's were the problem is
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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Quote:
Quote:
According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Browns have made some progress in negotiations for quarterback Brady Quinn and are now only about $500,000 apart in guaranteed money. Quinn is seeking about $8 million in guaranteed money, same as the No. 20 overall pick, and the Browns have increased their guaranteed offer to about $7.5 million.
From here
Yeah but this isn't the problem. It seems that they are far apart on incentives that could increase the contract value by 10 million
Condon wants the incentives to kick in if Quinn starts (shows up-we didn't spend a 1st rounder to let him ride the pine)
The Browns wants Quinn to actually preform to get the incentives...(playoffs, pro-bowls, super bowls...etc)
That's were the problem is
The problem with pro bowls is it's a giant popularity contest. Playoffs and Superbowls require a good team around you as well.
IMO, the best way to gauge incentives should be how a player grades out on film. Hear me out on this...when a player is graded out on film, the player is judged individually on whether or not he did his job. It does not factor in how the players around him play. So for example, the line could collectively grade out poorly, but Thomas and Steinbach could have both graded individually at 92% for doing their job.
So for example, if Quinn throws an INT because Edwards ran the wrong route, it wouldn't hurt his film grade. But if he makes a bad throw and Edwards runs the right route, it does hurt the grade.
Sounds like the most fair system to me, IMO.
Last edited by Ammo; 08/07/07 01:37 AM.
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I was just giving examples AMMO I mean Passing yards and TDs can be thrown in there. As far as a film grade here are a few things I see:
1) What if the Quinn throws the ball to the wrong player or it gets tipped and goes for a TD ( is that + for the end result or negative cause he threw it to the wrong player)
2) What if he throws a 2 yard screen that goes for 50 yards ( Well he only threw it about 10 yards horizontally should he get credit for the legwork the HB or WR had to do?)
Those are just two scenarios. I think the best to look at its QB rating, Win %, and TDs to INT ratio.. but that's just me....
Go Browns!!
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I was just giving examples AMMO I mean Passing yards and TDs can be thrown in there. As far as a film grade here are a few things I see:
1) What if the Quinn throws the ball to the wrong player or it gets tipped and goes for a TD ( is that + for the end result or negative cause he threw it to the wrong player)
2) What if he throws a 2 yard screen that goes for 50 yards ( Well he only threw it about 10 yards horizontally should he get credit for the legwork the HB or WR had to do?)
Those are just two scenarios. I think the best to look at its QB rating, Win %, and TDs to INT ratio.. but that's just me....
Well I don't know how the Browns grade film but I know that how we did it in high school all those things were accounted for.
Like for example, if you accurately led the receiver, you got more points, if you threw behind so the YAC wasn't what it could be, you got credit for the completion, but not the throw and such.
There has to be a fair system similar to what I'm describing right now. I'd like to go into more detail but I'm dead tired and have to work tomorrow.
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I think the best to look at its QB rating,
Mensa, is that you?
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Probably the two most important stats for a QB are completion percentage and TD-to-INT ratio...both of which are factored into QB rating..
You can't base it off wins cause it takes a team to win and not just 1 players. (Look at the game the Raiders beat the steelers...I think their defense did most of the scoring/look at the year that the Ravens won it all...or even the Bears last year)
You can't base it yards cause you could have a lot of yards but not TDs. Or a lot of TDs, INTs, and yards.
IMO I think if you had to pick out one stat to base a QB's play off of it would be QB rating.
Go Browns!!
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The only problem I see with that is the Browns are doing the grading....And for a contract worth the amount they are talking about....I think you would want an independant grader instead of opne of the paries involved....which is not going to happen....
It would be like GM, Ford or Toyota grading their cars crashworthiness instead of the National Safety Council....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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It would be like GM, Ford or Toyota grading their cars crashworthiness instead of the National Safety Council....
I think they all crash just fine.
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Just clicking Pete: I don't see the problem with giving the incentives that will kick in during the 4th and 5th years of the contract. The guaranteed money is the only thing the Browns are locked into. If Quinn is not the real deal by year 4 then the Browns can just release him and never pay for those years. All they have to pay is the guaranteed money.And at that point if he has given us what we all want which is a Super Bowl, then we would be getting one hell of a deal even with the incentives! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Just clicking... I had a dream that woke me up at 7:25 that said "Quinn is on a flight to Berea right now to sign." Let's see if that actually happens today.
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The problem Corpus is that Condon wants the 'incentives' to be so easy that Quinn could basically achieve them next year... his second year of the contract and then we would owe it to him by his 4th year... the Browns want the incentives to actually be sort of hard to achieve.
<><
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Just clicking...
I had a dream that woke me up at 7:25 that said "Quinn is on a flight to Berea right now to sign."
Let's see if that actually happens today.
now when u start dreaming about the Browns.. lol.. u are a TRUE fan..
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Thank God, this is getting ridiculous. The fans are getting their panties in a wad, the media actually did the right thing for once and came down hard on BRADY and not the Browns. Things are starting to get wierd around here.
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Well ya know,when there's "two sides to the story" you gotta pick a side and place the blame on one side or the other. Ya gotta make some headlines to sale papers. I'm sure this won't sale papers................ "Plain Dealer Won't Take Sides In Quinn Negotiations"
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Just clicking...
I had a dream that woke me up at 7:25 that said "Quinn is on a flight to Berea right now to sign."
Let's see if that actually happens today.
That's kind of scary actually.
Maybe you should keep your dreams to yourself.
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Well ya know,when there's "two sides to the story" you gotta pick a side and place the blame on one side or the other. Ya gotta make some headlines to sale papers.
And that my friend is EXACTLY what is happening... if there isn't a BIG STORY,,, then make one up.. That seems the be the Media Moto
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I'm sure this won't sale papers................
Jesus, Pit the word is "sell"....... 
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Gives Couch a low blow at the end... Link Brady Quinn must get in and win, or God help him: Phillip Morris Tuesday, August 07, 2007 Phillip Morris Plain Dealer Columnist Touchdown Jesus moved to Cleveland 22 years ago this summer. His name was Bernie Kosar, and he grew up in Boardman, a town about 80 miles from the stadium where the Browns play on Sundays. Kosar loved the city of Cleveland and the city quickly came to love him back. He was drafted here when the city was undergoing rapid change and population loss. It still billed itself as an international steel town, with good hospitals. But it was well on its way to becoming a hospital town, with significantly dwindled steel and auto industries, and no tool & die to speak of. Kosar quickly signed a lucrative but fair contract, after some shrewd draft rule exploitation. He reported to camp on time and mastered the playbook. When he wasn't at practice, he could be seen signing autographs around town -- for free. He was 6 feet 5, ran like a baby giraffe and threw a pass rarely confused for a spiral. But he snatched the starting quarterback job from Gary Danielson in the fifth game of the 1985 season and promptly beat the Houston Oilers, 21-6. That game laid the groundwork to his becoming the second-greatest quarterback in franchise history (behind only Otto Graham) -- and maybe the most loved. With Kosar under center, a global network of rabid fans dreamed of going all the way. And the team came so tantalizingly close, some of those fans still hurt. In many ways, Cleveland has changed since the 1985 draft. But we continue to expect the most of our quarterbacks. In April, the Browns drafted another Touchdown Jesus. His name is Brady Quinn. He is from Dublin, Ohio, a picturesque town about 140 miles from the stadium. Like Kosar, he also claims to love Cleveland. And the city is prepared to love him back. At the University of Notre Dame, Quinn played in the shadow of the famous statue dubbed "Touchdown Jesus," and was a very good quarterback, although he never won a national championship, as Kosar did at the University of Miami. His commercial appeal is said to be enhanced further by his matinee idol looks. So now, many Clevelanders have taken to dreaming of Quinn under center. But as of Monday afternoon, the quarterback had refused to sign a contract with the Browns. He wants more money. That's fine. Business is business. Besides, quarterbacks should have healthy egos, especially in Cleveland, where they have spent a fair amount of time on their backs in recent years. But Quinn must be very careful. Currently, we don't have a heck of a lot of nonsports matters to cheer. Quinn is not inheriting the "can-do" city that once deified Otto Graham, and later feted Kosar with song. He's inheriting a city in a bad mood. He's inheriting a city that keeps popping up on all of the wrong national lists. He is coming to Cleveland, a city with a splitting headache that treats the Browns like aspirin. That's heady stuff to put on the shoulders of a 22-year-old man. But Quinn is smart. And a leader. Maybe it will occur to him today that he should not keep this audience waiting. Cleveland can hate just as intensely as it loves, especially an overpaid, stand-offish, "franchise" quarterback. Just ask Tim Couch. To reach Phillip Morris: pfmorris@plaind.com, 216-999-5086
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Though agent Tom Condon has maintained a very low profile in connection with the ongoing Brady Quinn holdout, it now seems that Condon is allowing himself to be heard via the leakage of information to Len Pasquarelli of ESPN.com. How else would Pasquarelli know that the structure for incentive payments being proposed by Condon is similar to the incentive formula used in contracts for other Condon clients such as Jets quarterback Chad Pennington, Jags quarterback Byron Leftwich, and Cardinals quarterback Matt Leinart? Who other than Condon would know this? In all fairness, it's possible that Condon has shared this information with the Browns, and that someone from the team is the unnamed "source with direct knowledge of the bargaining process" mentioned in Pasquarelli's item. But why would someone from the team leak information that, if anything, tends to make the team look unreasonable for not agreeing to a structure that multiple other franchises have deemed acceptable? Pasquarelli also reports that progress is being made in the talks, and that meshes with things we're heard from league and industry sources. But, still, more progress would be made if Condon would get his caboose to Cleveland for face-to-face discussions aimed at bringing this matter to a conclusion. As we've heard it from multiple sources, the two sides are roughly $500,000 apart on guaranteed money, with the bigger sticking point being the back-end payments. There's a sense that the deal will get done as early as later this week.Again, it could get done in a matter of hours if Condon would just go to Cleveland and make it happen. Link
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Meh.
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I thought this belonged here: web page Brady Quinn/QB/Browns/No. 22 overall pick: Even after a monumental slide in the first round last April, Quinn wants the guarantees of a top-15 selection. Salary and incentives during the final years of the contract are also a sticking point since Quinn wants to be certain he is be paid the way a starting quarterback in the NFL should be if he is behind center five years from now. To date, the Browns have been fair with Quinn. But at the same time the franchise is likely aware other teams do not want them to over pay for the signal caller.
And the next head coach is ......
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In all fairness, it's possible that Condon has shared this information with the Browns, and that someone from the team is the unnamed "source with direct knowledge of the bargaining process" mentioned in Pasquarelli's item. But why would someone from the team leak information that, if anything, tends to make the team look unreasonable for not agreeing to a structure that multiple other franchises have deemed acceptable?
PUH-lease. Does anyone believe someone from the team might have leaked it? And even if they did, why would the team look bad w/ just the STRUCTURE of the contract being leaked? It's the ridiculous amount of money they are talking that is the issue. If THAT was leaked, I'm thinking Condon would look worse than the team.
I don't know why I'm commenting on this. I'm so friggin' sick of it. Please end soon . . . 
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Gives Couch a low blow at the end...
Link
Brady Quinn must get in and win, or God help him: Phillip Morris
Tuesday, August 07, 2007
Phillip Morris
Plain Dealer Columnist
Touchdown Jesus moved to Cleveland 22 years ago this summer.
His name was Bernie Kosar, and he grew up in Boardman, a town about 80 miles from the stadium where the Browns play on Sundays.
Kosar loved the city of Cleveland and the city quickly came to love him back.
He was drafted here when the city was undergoing rapid change and population loss. It still billed itself as an international steel town, with good hospitals. But it was well on its way to becoming a hospital town, with significantly dwindled steel and auto industries, and no tool & die to speak of.
Kosar quickly signed a lucrative but fair contract, after some shrewd draft rule exploitation. He reported to camp on time and mastered the playbook.
When he wasn't at practice, he could be seen signing autographs around town -- for free.
He was 6 feet 5, ran like a baby giraffe and threw a pass rarely confused for a spiral. But he snatched the starting quarterback job from Gary Danielson in the fifth game of the 1985 season and promptly beat the Houston Oilers, 21-6.
That game laid the groundwork to his becoming the second-greatest quarterback in franchise history (behind only Otto Graham) -- and maybe the most loved.
With Kosar under center, a global network of rabid fans dreamed of going all the way. And the team came so tantalizingly close, some of those fans still hurt.
In many ways, Cleveland has changed since the 1985 draft. But we continue to expect the most of our quarterbacks.
In April, the Browns drafted another Touchdown Jesus.
His name is Brady Quinn. He is from Dublin, Ohio, a picturesque town about 140 miles from the stadium.
Like Kosar, he also claims to love Cleveland. And the city is prepared to love him back.
At the University of Notre Dame, Quinn played in the shadow of the famous statue dubbed "Touchdown Jesus," and was a very good quarterback, although he never won a national championship, as Kosar did at the University of Miami. His commercial appeal is said to be enhanced further by his matinee idol looks.
So now, many Clevelanders have taken to dreaming of Quinn under center.
But as of Monday afternoon, the quarterback had refused to sign a contract with the Browns.
He wants more money.
That's fine. Business is business.
Besides, quarterbacks should have healthy egos, especially in Cleveland, where they have spent a fair amount of time on their backs in recent years.
But Quinn must be very careful.
Currently, we don't have a heck of a lot of nonsports matters to cheer. Quinn is not inheriting the "can-do" city that once deified Otto Graham, and later feted Kosar with song.
He's inheriting a city in a bad mood. He's inheriting a city that keeps popping up on all of the wrong national lists. He is coming to Cleveland, a city with a splitting headache that treats the Browns like aspirin.
That's heady stuff to put on the shoulders of a 22-year-old man.
But Quinn is smart. And a leader. Maybe it will occur to him today that he should not keep this audience waiting.
Cleveland can hate just as intensely as it loves, especially an overpaid, stand-offish, "franchise" quarterback.
Just ask Tim Couch.
To reach Phillip Morris:
pfmorris@plaind.com, 216-999-5086
That article should have these pictures attached to it...
 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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They are both surprisingly similar in figure  EDIT: I think Brady is wearing lip-stick...
Last edited by CleVeLaNd_sTrife; 08/07/07 01:05 PM.
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iVP5Po2.png)
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Yeah I know....Brady should have A LOT bigger arms in the picture. Oh well, not bad for MS Paint.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"If after year three,we plainly see he's not "the franchise QB" we'd hoped for,we can cut him and go in another direction. I think the "garunteed signing bonus is around 7.5 - 8 mil. Pro rate that is about 1.5 per year. So it would be a 3mil cap hit to cut him."
Your thinking and attitude is just simply warped.
Its not about cutting him after 3 years of evaluation....Its about signing a #22 pick and giving him 30 million in contract. Your reasoning is hey he's a starter he deserves it.
So by that reasoning after this season is done and CF does halfway decent we should tear up his contract and give him 8 mil the last two seasons? Well actually by the excelerators given to BQ we actually should be paying Frye 8 mil this season - after all he started 70% of the reps last season. Its like an automatic 30 mil contract for BQ by those excelerators. The only thing that could possibly stop it is.
A. Frye becomes a Pro-Bowl QB this season.
B. BQ gets injured in 4 out of his 5 years as our QB which is a horrible thing to think about.
YOU DON'T GIVE AUTOMATIC 30MIL CONTRACTS TO A #22 PICK pure and simple. But Savage is willing to do so with some harder excelerators. Such as Pro-Bowl and or Playoff success.
QB does deserves some special considerations. Ergo the 30 million in incentives and a larger Signing bonus. But that 30 mil can't be Automatic with rediculously easy achievables like Showing up...  All under the Guise that well we could always cut him if he doesn't show promise  Just rediculous.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
DAMN good post EO.. I would be SICKENED if Frye had this sort of deal and showed no progression... Just eats up valuable cap space that could get someone better in here...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,235
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,235 |
Hey... No more posting in this thread. Let it fall to the depths
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
lol After posting that I read that we finally came to an agreement so basically a Moot Point - I'm just happy he's in now. We got all our ducks in a row.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum With his holdout, Quinn ventures
down perilous path
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