DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Indiana middle school shooting

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/active-shooter...topstories.html

Obviously the solution is to arm the 7th graders.

Guess the pro life crowd doesn’t care about kids getting shot

They’re already born. So, no.

It's going to take one of the important peoples' kid getting killed to get the GOP to take action. Imagine how fast we'd have gun legislation if Barron Trump were wounded in a shooting. Our kids aren't important to the GOP and their masters. We are just a serial number tied to a debt that they get to grind underfoot and work into a grave so the can maintain their opulent lifestyles.

I don't like the GOP, but school shootings were a huge problem before they took office. Why do you guys constantly twist the narrative to fit your beliefs? Why not just post honestly?

Because the Parland shooting presented Trump with a perfect chance to do something. He acted like he was going to do exactly that, then the NRA grabbed him by the vijayjay.

What was trump supposed to do?

They and I do it because the wall between sensible gun control and no control is built with Republicans.. That's why

This kids parents needs to be lit up... (Assuming he got these guns from home) And by "lit up" I'm talking about 8-10 years in jail and the families of the two people injured should sue them for every penny they have or ever will have...

i agree.

and if it isn't already a law, maybe it should be.

that would certainly be a prevention based law. obviously most laws are inherently designed to try and prevent/deter crimes, but in this case, holding people accountable for their weapons being used in a shooting would potentially go a long way in preventing mass shootings by minors.

I think parents should be responsible - however again this a slipper slope. What if a 18 year old kid, breaks into your safe and steal your guns? You are also now creating precedent that the legal gun owner can be held responsible ANYTIME a firearm is stolen.

I personally would be ok with the suggested law of the parents being responsible - if it was truly negligent, but I would be very wary of the wording and intent. If in this instance, the guns were readily accessible for the child, they should be yes. However we still do not know any information as to how the guns were obtained at this point.

I don't care how much you work with your kids, teach them gun safety, teach them gun respect.. all of that other stuff..

If you leave your guns where your 12 year old can get them out of the house without you knowing and take them to school, you should pay a very serious price for that.

Maybe the not the full impact of the crime committed with the guns but damn close.

It's not that slippery of a slope.. if somebody does something illegal to obtain the guns, then the gun owner isn't liable.. so let's look at your example..

If the 18 year old jacks the safe and takes the guns, then as the parent you better be prepared to have your own son arrested for B&E and/or theft..

If the 18 year old has the combination, then you might as well leave them on the coffee table because he didn't really "break into the safe" and you, as the gun owner, are still responsible.


No, we don't know how he obtained the guns, I tried to qualify that... I can't think of any circumstance under which a middle schooler walks out of the house with his parents guns, unless the parents are dead on the floor at home, that they aren't at fault here.

I agree, but again this is why i would want to see the proposed legislation first, because i truly believe those out there do not care about that, and just want to punish gun owners for being gun owners.

Depends, maybe he guessed the combo/stole the key? maybe its a biometric safe and for some reason he allowed him to gain access. Some safes you have to hit touch just certain keys. Over time, it could be broken - how do you prove that in the court of law?? That's what i mean when i say slippery slope.

Oh i am leaning that way as well (that they were stupid with their guns) but in my lifetime, i have learned its best to wait for the facts before accusations and charges are spewed out (not that you are, just in general).

But I can tell you this, for safety reasons i was shown at 13 years old (middle school), where the gun safe key was at my home. I and my brothers would be alone for a few hours after school or sometimes my parent dad would travel for work (a lot actually). I was trained to use the firearms, respect the firearms, etc. Never once did i ever have a thought of going in there for any reason other than to protect myself, my brothers, or my mother.

So once again, at 13, i knew what a gun was, knew how to handle it, never shot anyone. Something tells me this is a kid issue/parent issue/mental issue, not a gun issue.

This teacher likely saved a slaughter at Noblesville...my thoughts and prayers for him and his family as well as the student who is in critical condition.


School shooting in Noblesville Indiana: teacher 'throws basketball at gunman and swats pistol from his hand' to save students' lives

Asher Mcshane 6 hrs ago
link

A US teacher has been hailed a hero for single-handedly thwarting a school shooting by 'swatting' a gun from a student's hand as he tried to gun down classmates.

The student, armed with two handguns, opened fire at the school in Indiana, wounding a classmate and heroic teacher Jason Seaman at around 9am yesterday morning.

The attacker had asked to be dismissed from his science class, before returning brandishing the two guns and opening fire at Noblesville West Middle School.

Police Chief Kevin Jowitt said the student was arrested "extremely quickly" after the incident.

Seventh-grade student Ethan Stonebraker said the student was acting suspiciously when he walked into the room while the class was taking a test.


He said science teacher Mr Seaman had averted a "catastrophe."

"Our science teacher immediately ran at him, swatted a gun out of his hand and tackled him to the ground,"

Stonebraker said. "If it weren't for him, more of us would have been injured for sure."

Ethan told ABC News that Mr Seaman threw a basketball at the shooter and ran through a hail of bullets as screaming students sought cover behind a table.

He said he also knew the suspected gunman, whom he described as "a nice kid most of the times" and said he often joked with the classmates.

"It's just a shock he would do something like that," Ethan said.

The attack comes a week after an attack at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas, that killed eight students and two teachers, and months after the school attack that killed 17 people in Parkland, Florida. The Florida attack inspired students from that school and others throughout the country to call for more restrictions on access to guns.


Seaman's brother, Jeremy Seaman, told The Indianapolis Star that his brother was shot three times and was undergoing surgery. He said he was conscious after the shooting and talked with his wife, telling her he was OK.

Jason Seaman, 29, of Noblesville was in good condition Friday night, police spokesman Lt. Bruce Barnes said. The injured student, a girl, was in critical condition, Barnes said. Her name has not been released.

"There were no apparent injuries to the alleged shooter," Barnes said.

Jeremy Seaman, who now lives in Arizona, said his brother was a defensive end for Southern Illinois University's football team and has never been a person to run away.

Hours after the shooting, law enforcement agents sealed off part of an upscale neighbourhood in Noblesville but weren't commenting on whether the suspect lived there. Sandy McWilliams, a member of a landscaping crew working nearby, said six officers toting assault rifles entered a home.

Students were bused to the Noblesville High School gym, where hundreds of parents and other family members arrived to retrieve them.

Authorities referred to a prompt and heroic response at the school but didn't confirm accounts of the teacher tackling the student or describe the role of the resource officer who was stationed at the school.

When asked to elaborate on his praise of the response, Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter said: "Wait `til one day we can tell you that story. You'll be proud of them, too."

Eighth-grader Chris Navarro said he was inside an auditorium when he heard several gunshots about a minute before the bell rang for the change in classes.

"The speaker came on and said we were on lockdown and people rushed in and we went to the back of the room. I went into this little room in the back with three other people," he said calmly standing between his parents as they picked him up.

Jennifer Morris, who was among the worried parents who rushed to get their kids, appeared slightly dazed and said she was at work when her 14-year-old son sent a text message about the shooting, stunning her.

"He said, `I'm OK, please come get me.' That was probably 20 minutes after it happened," Morris said. "It's like a bad dream. I don't know how you get the kids through this. This isn't something you're trained for as a parent."

Gov. Eric Holcomb, who was returning from a trip to Europe on Friday, issued a statement saying he and other state leaders were getting updates about the situation and that 100 state police officers had been made available to work with local law enforcement.

"Our thoughts are with all those affected by this horrible situation," Holcomb said.

Noblesville, which is about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northeast of Indianapolis, is home to about 50,000 people. The middle school has about 1,300 students from grades 6-8. The school's academic year was scheduled to end next Friday.

Indiana's Senate Democrats issued a statement in response to Friday's school shooting expressing their condolences to the victims and calling for steps to prevent such shootings, including restrictions on guns.

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What's to address? The factual answer is that the GOP hasn't been obstructing on behalf of the NRA.

It at least on this issue has been obstructing people like you and others on these forums who lack the critical thought and insight on the subject.

You hyperbolize with comments such as "...and if you were keeping track of this issue you would clearly realize the GOP fix is tied to how much money the NRA can hand over to the GOP rather than giving a !%@#* about the amount of blood, guts and brain matter Americans have splattered on the walls, halls and floors of classrooms all over the USA. "

Yet not a one of you has ever been able to proffer a solution and be able to explain how that solution a) would prevent future incidents and b) and explain the safeguards within your proposals that wold prevent innocent people from being unduly punished or unnecessarily restrict them from exercising their Rights.

It's easy to come up with laws for what happens after the fact . And you and others can save the "Oh, but the children BS" con game. If you guys actually cared an iota more than the people you criticize, you guys would actually put some serious thought in to topic. But you won't because for you guys it's not actually about saving the children.

I keep seeing a lot of comments about how the NRA needs to give up an inch or concede on that. Why?

These shootings aren't being carried out by NRA members.

These shootings aren't being carried out in support of NRA ideals.

The simple fact that again, neither you or anyone else have been able to make a coherent proposal for a law that would prevent a shooting, also means that none of you can point to a law that the NRA was able to keep from being passed or was able to repeal that would have prevented any of them.

How's that "Gun Free Zone" working out for the kids? Wait, what's that mac? Can you speak a little louder... I hit 40 and my hearing ain't so good anymore... .Oh, they don't work??? You don't say! I'm shocked!




Again, if you actually care about the children, then stop looking for a Boogeyman to blame, and stop being lazy and start looking at the actual symptoms and the roots of the issue.

2 years ago, I stated that there was nothing TO be done... that wet streets and kids with holes are the price America pays for the rights to unfettered access to tools of Death. That there is a direct correlation between the number of guns and the frequency of mass shootings.

You called me 'cynical.' I countered that I was one of the few clear-eyed adults in the conversation.

We're not going to change laws. We're not going to take 300 MILLION guns off the street.
We're not going to reinvest in mental health because there's no immediate benefit to be seen.

So we might as well get used to the ever-rising death toll. I know I have. I shed tears years ago. I tried activism. Now, I'm numb... and done with this stupid deadbate.

Nothing left to do but contract out teams to dig holes in the ground, 24/7.

"How's that "Gun Free Zone" working out for the kids?"

i dunno devil, ask the parkland kids how that armed cop worked out for them.

And you wonder why things can't get done with attitudes like yours.

Because I posted the truth?

In your own mind.

No, the truth is the truth.

Y’all can’t talk about gun free zones when we’re watching armed guards freeze when an active shooter is present.

There’s failure all around.

Several shootings have been stopped by armed security as well as armed and unarmed citizens so it can work if the time was put into it instead of blaming the gun.

And several shootings have NOT been stopped despite armed guards and armed civilians.

You can’t point out one aspect and completely ignore the other. That’s what I just got on Devil about, and here you are trying to pull the same nonsense.

Again, these things are never going to be solved at the door of the school.

The Parkland shooter pulled a fire alarm to create panic, and turn the hallways and classrooms into a slaughter house.

They committed their horror inside the school, but they could just as easily have sat in their cars after pulling the alarm, and then start shooting from there.In that case, no security would have been enough.

We have to start working in the hearts of kids (and adults, for that matter) to make positive changes, before they ever get to that point. In the case of Parkland, the shooter had been described as a disturbed boy, who had been expelled from school, and who had a fascination with guns and violence. If he hadn't had a gun, who thinks that he wouldn't have found a different way to carry out his attack?

Why weren't authorities notified about his expulsion from school, and the reasons why? If laws won't allow it, then how can we get laws changed? Trying to stop these things at doors of the school property is too late. Thinking that you can somehow take away every gun is just chasing after the wind.

We can still try to improve general security at schools, but we have to realize that there is no perfect way to protect a school building and campus. We need to make changes in the lives of kids before they reach that point.

That is why nothing gets done attitudes like yours.

Done on trying to discuss this with you.

Very well said...

As an expat living overseas, I have experienced many different types of people and cultures... it's what drives me to live this lifestyle, as I feel that it has taught ne a lot on how to be a better person myself...

Where I live, guns are only toted by the police, and private citizens can own a gun, but it must be kept at a gun club and used there...

There has never been a mass shooting here... (or more than a handful of gun deaths in a decade)

Like it or not... think of every possible solution other than the obvious and see if it works at the cost of more lives..

No other country in the world has the gun culture that the US has... and she is paying the price for it. You can say all you want about the founding fathers, but I would bet that they would yank the 2nd out from under you gun toting butts without a second thought, as their intention was never to protect a society as the one that exists today...

Go ahead and compare a society without the gun obsession to the US, and your will see the problem... and the solution at the same time.

But please don't tell me that its not the gun that kills... it is a selfish and ignorant argument... and if you Segway to knives or cars... that's even worse...

Drastic measures are needed for a drastic problem...

Significantly better than the Gun Free Zones.

While clearly not every incident has been stopped in a timely manner and you can't really account for cowardice, the simple FACT remains that there isn't a single attack thwarted by a "Gun Free Zone".

If there is an example, I and think everyone else would be very interested in seeing it.

The only way that even makes sense is if there are more shootings in gun free zones overall than not.

Everytown for Gun Safety found that among 133 mass shootings between January 2009 and July 2015, 70 percent took place in private homes while 13 percent took place in "gun-free zones," where carrying of concealed guns were prohibited. Another 17 percent took place in public areas where the carrying of firearms are allowed.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statem...gun-free-zones/

Never mind the fact that our lawmakers can’t seem to adequately define what a mass shooting is.

I’m willing to bet that most people on this board wasn’t aware of that.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with your take.

And a lot of these mass shootings most certainly could’ve been avoided with simple gun protection laws.

But you and Vambo can continue looking at symptoms. I rather look at root causes.

I'm not going to attack the study results, but I would like some clarification.. such as do they automatically consider a private home nota Gun Free Zone? I will be critical of their claim at least in the sense that when we talk about preventing mass shootings, there's generally a distinction between some dude whacking his ex-wife, her sister, her parents and the dog, versus someone rolling up in to a school or mall.

As for the lawmakers, I think that is on purpose bro. I can't think of the last time 3 or 4 people got rolled up on in the hood and it ever being described as a "mass shooting". 3 or 4 white kids get hit with a water gun... well, we know what that turns in to.

Simple gun laws like what?

Stronger background checks? What does that mean? (BTW, I DO believe there could and should be a better exchange of criminal history info between states)

Mandatory mental health screening? What are the standards? What are the parameters and Due Process if you wish to challenge your status? Where is the line drawn between the State and Privacy?

Mandatory firearms training? Who would administer that? The NRA? Would that be a satisfactory agreement to those like mac?


I'm not expecting you to answer all of those. I'm just merely brainstorming a variety of questions that can't ever seem to get answered and to show that there IS a lot more to actually seriously discuss and that there has to be more to say than #mahguns or #itstheguns

Im going to say this as nice as I possibly can.

This is why discussing anything serious on here is painful.

You ask:



Which is odd because:



That’s right, I already answered your question. You proved to me that you don’t read anything I post unless it’s something that halfway irks you to get a response.

I don’t get it bro. Sup with that?

Atleast actually read my post. That’s all I ask.

I'm just going to place this here, because it changes the dialogue in a way I haven't seen in quite awhile.

Perhaps it will jump-start a new line of conversation... because the same old 'same old' has been played out since 'since.'

_________________________

Gladwell: once again turning perception's eye back into the mirror... to gain insight from its own reflection. You think it's bad? It's more grim than any of you thought. Read this- and tell me how cynical I am for expecting dead bodies as a price tag directly attached to 2A.

The Best Explanation for Our Spate of Mass Shootings Is the Least Comforting By DAVID FRENCH May 18, 2018 2:37 PM

I hate to introduce even more pessimism, but when we discuss mass shootings, one of the first questions we ask is the simplest and also the hardest to answer. Why? Why does this keep happening? Those who advocate for gun control have an immediate answer — the prevalence of guns in the United States. Yet guns have been part of the fabric of American life for the entire history of our republic. Mass shootings — especially the most deadly mass shootings — are a far more recent phenomenon.

Writing in 2015, Malcolm Gladwell wrote what I think is still the best explanation for modern American mass shootings, and it’s easily the least comforting. At the risk of oversimplifying a complex argument, essentially he argues that each mass shooting lowers the threshold for the next. He argues, we are in the midst of a slow-motion “riot” of mass shootings, with the Columbine shooting in many ways the key triggering event. Relying on the work of Stanford sociologist Mark Granovetter, Gladwell notes that it’s a mistake to look at each incident independently:

"But Granovetter thought it was a mistake to focus on the decision-making processes of each rioter in isolation. In his view, a riot was not a collection of individuals, each of whom arrived independently at the decision to break windows. A riot was a social process, in which people did things in reaction to and in combination with those around them. Social processes are driven by our thresholds—which he defined as the number of people who need to be doing some activity before we agree to join them. In the elegant theoretical model Granovetter proposed, riots were started by people with a threshold of zero—instigators willing to throw a rock through a window at the slightest provocation. Then comes the person who will throw a rock if someone else goes first. He has a threshold of one. Next in is the person with the threshold of two. His qualms are overcome when he sees the instigator and the instigator’s accomplice. Next to him is someone with a threshold of three, who would never break windows and loot stores unless there were three people right in front of him who were already doing that—and so on up to the hundredth person, a righteous upstanding citizen who nonetheless could set his beliefs aside and grab a camera from the broken window of the electronics store if everyone around him was grabbing cameras from the electronics store."

Gladwell then argues that Columbine changed the thresholds. The first seven of the “major” modern school-shooting incidents were “disconnected and idiosyncratic.”

"Then came Columbine. The sociologist Ralph Larkin argues that Harris and Klebold laid down the “cultural script” for the next generation of shooters. They had a Web site. They made home movies starring themselves as hit men. They wrote lengthy manifestos. They recorded their “basement tapes.” Their motivations were spelled out with grandiose specificity: Harris said he wanted to “kick-start a revolution.” Larkin looked at the twelve major school shootings in the United States in the eight years after Columbine, and he found that in eight of those subsequent cases the shooters made explicit reference to Harris and Klebold. Of the eleven school shootings outside the United States between 1999 and 2007, Larkin says six were plainly versions of Columbine; of the eleven cases of thwarted shootings in the same period, Larkin says all were Columbine-inspired."

Here’s the most ominous part of the Gladwell thesis. The “low threshold” shooters are motivated by “powerful grievances,” but as the riot spreads, the justifications are often manufactured, and the shooters more and more “normal.” Here’s Gladwell’s chilling conclusion:

"In the day of Eric Harris, we could try to console ourselves with the thought that there was nothing we could do, that no law or intervention or restrictions on guns could make a difference in the face of someone so evil. But the riot has now engulfed the boys who were once content to play with chemistry sets in the basement. The problem is not that there is an endless supply of deeply disturbed young men who are willing to contemplate horrific acts. It’s worse. It’s that young men no longer need to be deeply disturbed to contemplate horrific acts."

In other contexts, he’s elaborated further. The preparations for massacres are often extremely detailed. Shooters (and wannabe shooters) will often film videos, mimic the dress and poses of the Columbine killers, and otherwise copy the shooters who came before. Gladwell is hardly an NRA conservative — and he believes gun control “has its place” — but he also shares this grim warning:

“Let’s not kid ourselves that if we passed the strictest gun control in the world that we would end this particular kind of behavior.”

Indeed, it’s the pattern of elaborate preparation and obsession with the subculture of mass shooters that has led in part to my own advocacy of the gun-violence restraining order. While we don’t have sufficient details about today’s shooter in Texas to know if it would have made a difference, it’s a fact that large numbers of mass shooters broadcast warning signals of their intent to do harm, and it’s also a fact that family members and other relevant people close to the shooter have few tools at their disposal to prevent violence. A gun-violence restraining order can allow a family member (or school principal) to quickly get in front of a local judge for a hearing (with full due-process protections) that can result in the temporary confiscation of weapons from a proven dangerous person.

While early reports are often wrong, there are indications that the Texas shooter engaged in behavior that sounds eerily like the Columbine shooting. We’ve seen reports of a trench coat, of the use of similar weapons, and of explosives — all hallmarks of the Colorado massacre. When I think of Columbine, I think of Gladwell’s essay. There are young men in the grip of a terrible contagion, and there is no cure coming.


link.

Gunman Who Fired Into An Oklahoma City Restaurant Was Shot Dead By 2 Bystanders

May 25, 20182:34 PM ET

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/...by-2-bystanders

15 Injured, Some Critically, After 2 Men Set Off Bomb At Ontario Restaurant

May 25, 20183:36 AM ET


Link

The bombing comes just over a month after a driver plowed a van into a crowd of pedestrians on a busy Toronto street, killing 10 and injuring 15.

People will always find ways to kill other people if they want to bad enough.

Thankfully school is out for the summer. Maybe we will get a couple of months without a school shooting... Hopefully next year we will have a congress that 'might' act.

This is how liberals sound on this topic.