DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Thomas returns to coaching role with Browns?

No doubt he has a lot he can teach.

I guess my broader point is just because Joe teaching some of those guys doesn't mean they will become him. I sometimes get the feeling that some feel that with Joe teaching there is going to be some grand transformation.

I'm not trying to speak for Peen, but I think the bigger point is that JT is an extremely rare talent. You can make an attempt to teach anyone. It's their ability to execute what you're teaching them that may become the problem. You can be a world class sprinter and work with me every day. Yet I'm never going to run a 4.4 40 no matter how much you teach me.

Didn't we lose our main oline coach one summer because of a DV or DUI? The line performed great that year. It's no surprise that the Browns have hit a home run on every linemen position since JT got here. And while I'd like to think that it was the brain power of Ray Farmer, Sashi Brown, Heckert and others that could see that Alex Mack, Joel Bitonio, and Mitchell Schwartz were going to be top 3 in their positions, but the evidence doesn't lead me to believe that. Joe Thomas's intelligence and coaching ability leads me to believe that.

I didn't know JT was coaching the C and G positions while he was playing LT for the Browns.

Also coaching the RT position too. It's crazy what you can do when you know the game so well.

As I've said before, the people you teach must have the ability to execute the things you teach them. We've had some pretty putrid RT play while JT was here. Shon Coleman was one of the, if not the most penalized RT's in the league last year.

If you think JT was our OL coach I've got some swamp land in Florida for you to take a look at.

Never did I say that JT was our OL coach. But I'm not going to pretend that he has had nothing to do with our Oline success, especially since all of those linemen have praised Joe on working with them and coaching them and being a selfless, great guy. In 2014 we let go of Bob Moeller after he beat a woman in his home, we then brought in an inexperienced coach without missing a beat. Of the 6 offensive line coaches Joe has had, only 2 still work in the NFL. I know correlation doesn't always equal causation, but I think it does in this case.

Let me break this further down for you, the greatest players in every sport make their teammates better. LeBron did it without missing a game this season.

JT can teach a lot. His stance and footing was indeed unique, but what he sees presnaps. Leverage and hand usage. How to take care of your body and a lot and best thing is... everyone will listen to him. His track record is clear as day and utterly impressive.

Noone will ever have that stance and be able to explode out of it like him though.

I think we may just be speaking in semantics here. I'm sure he's very helpful. My supposition is that a teacher can only help a student within the capacity that a student can learn and has the ability to execute what he's been taught. The OT position, especially LT takes a rare skill set to be proficient at. Without the skill set to execute at the position, the teaching will only make you proficient within the skill set you possess.

Honestly the most enlightening piece of information in the JT-Baldy talk was JT saying his stance was just a modified glide from shot putting. Honestly, it might easier for some tackles in high school to start using JT's stance.

ballpeen, I do not think anyone expects a “grand transformation” but some of us believe we will see significant improvement. Coleman needs time to develop and experience at the pro level. It would seem that having joe to mentor him will be a plus.
I just hope that every time shon makes a mistake, draws a penalty or gets beat by his man, that we do not have people declaring him a bust, garbage, a waste of a draft pick. We need to have realistic expectations. Joe t is a once in a lifetime left tackle. We will not have another for a while. Our lt position is now manned by a mere mortal and we need to realize that.

Maybe I'm mistaking your message, but it appears to me that you're suggesting that anyone with the right measurables can play LT. I strongly disagree with that. People can have the measurables and never have the athletic ability to perform well at their intended position far more often than less often.

I've seen LT's drafted high many times based on measurables who never reach fruition at the position. So have you. A stat sheet and measurables do not a LT make.

Any time you have a great player like JT to teach a young player is a plus, but let's not pretend Robinson has been coached by a bunch of bums so far. He's been being coached by NFL caliber coaches and has failed miserably to this point.

I'm always hoping for the best any time we acquire players, but I'm not going for the pie in the sky expectations built on a weak foundation.

Joe has already been working with coleman for years. I am not sure many grown men have the leg strength to use that one legged shot put stance of his. It's a real hell on the leg taking all that weight for an entire game. It also takes some serious agility and balance to pull it off as forcefully as Joe does. It's not impossible or anything but it is way more difficult than Joe makes it look.

Oh yeah, only a high schooler or a middle schooler could ever be coached with Joe's glide. However, I think the stance, while harder to use, is probably a much better stance for how the game is played now (emphasis on shotgun passing and wide zone run plays).

He has?

Yes. He has been mentoring him since he was drafted in 2016. This is the third season Joe has been helping him.

I think its a mistake to move him from rt where he played well.

You mean where he was one of the top penalized OL players in the NFL?

Coleman's Penalties

Game 1 - No penalties
Game 2 - 3; 2 holding, 1 false start (Balt)
Game 3 - No penalties
Game 4 - No penalties
Game 5 - 3; 1 holding, 1 false start, 1 illegal use of hands (NYJ)
Game 6 - 1; holding (Hou)
Game 7 - 1; holding (Tenn)
Game 8 - No penalties
Game 9 - No penatties
Game 10 - 1; illegal formation (Det)
Game 11 - No penalties
Game 12 - 2; holding (Cin)
Game 13 - No penalties
Game 14 - 1; holding (GB)
Game 15 - 1; holding (Balt)
Game 16 - 1; holding (Chi)

Yes, that's a lot of penalties. In his first 5 games he had 2 games w/3 penalties, and 3 games clean. Starting with game 6, and with the exception of 1 game, he had no more than 1/gm and 4 clean games. While not exactly dramatic, that does show improvement.

SC was essentially a rookie, technically he was a 2nd year player, but he spent most of his 1st year on IR, only getting into the final game of the season and only for part of the game. He played like a rookie. He was also playing RT after playing his entire HS and college careers at LT. With a year under his belt, returning to the position where he played his whole FB life, I would expect to see improvement. At least in his penalties. I can't speak for his technique or footwork, that is a discussion for more knowledgeable posters than I. But my point is that he improved as the season went on, and he was basically a rookie.

I wish the title of this thread was shortened to "Joe Thomas Returns".

That was a very good post. You used facts and logic.

I do want to say that I am not down on Coleman, but I am not really buying the "move to RT" excuse. The reason I say that is because I thought Coleman typically got beat because he either:

--Blocked the wrong man. [For example, he would double a guy that Z already had while letting an outside rusher run free.

Or

--His lack of lateral quickness was evident on many speed rushes and double moves.

The first one can be attributed to being inexperienced. The second issue can not.

I'll simply say that Vers outlined the reasons I'm not as optimistic as some are concerning Coleman filling in our LT position. I think he lacks the lateral movement required to play the position.

I'm always hopeful, however that our players can fill the roles that we need to make us a better team.

Well, if he is not the Answer at left tackle and we have to live with him, at least I feel good about Joe helping us get what we can out of him or whatever player lands there.

Go, Browns!

Agreed. I do not realistically expect those shoes to get filled, impossible to manage that in near future. I believe JT was like The Metric for measuring the position. Hope we end up tough in this part of the line. I agree, feet were an issue last season.

The good news is we have options ... that's all you can ask for to start. It's not possible to completely replace him.

Also, next year's draft has some nice LT prospects, so we have a year to figure it out before Mayfield takes over

....

Joe Thomas: Austin Corbett is a guard, not a tackle
By Nick Shook
Around The NFL Writer

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...rd-not-a-tackle


I was wrong.

Last week, in the return (!) of Behind the Offensive Line, we broke down some key offensive line battles across the league. I mentioned how the Browns would approach replacing future Hall of Famer Joe Thomas. Being a big believer in guards with potential, I listed No. 33 pick Austin Corbett as a contender for the left tackle position with veteran Shon Coleman.

Then I sat down with Thomas and chatted about his career, offensive line play and the situation at his old post in Cleveland.

Joe Thomas is here to tell you and I that I was wrong.

"I can say confidently that I don't think Austin Corbett is going to play tackle in the NFL," Thomas told me Tuesday. "I got to spend all of spring there watching film and practicing and coaching him up and he's certainly a guard or a center."

Thomas would very obviously know. He not only has a legendary resume, but also the up-close-and-personal experience with the aforementioned Corbett. And he quickly pointed out where I was wrong.

First, I wrote this:

While Bitonio slid to guard upon arrival to the NFL, Corbett will likely remain at tackle, thanks to Cleveland having its interior line solidified with Bitonio, J.C. Tretter and Kevin Zeitler. He's a solid blocker in all facets and plays with a streak of violence necessary to succeed in the tougher divisions of the NFL (like the AFC North), but doesn't quite have the measurables (length, height) that make him a natural tackle. He'll have to make up for that with his technical skill, and he'll have a good role model lining up next to him in Bitonio -- if he can beat out Coleman.

Turns out, Thomas sees Corbett as the least likely to grab the job, and looks to who he used to line up alongside as the likely choice to make a switch.

"I think what the Austin Corbett pick says is they felt it was really good value and they could develop him for the future depending on what happens," Thomas explained. "More good linemen is always a good thing and they felt that where they were in the draft was really good value. I agree. I think Austin is going to be a really good player.

"I think he's got a really good situation right now where he can grow and maybe become the center of the future, or depending on what they do with Joel (Bitonio), if they try to move Joel to tackle, they could put Austin at guard. But yeah, Joel would be the first guy out at tackle, and then they would probably put Austin or Spencer Drango at guard."

Thomas and I fell back in line toward the end of that analysis, and moved into near lockstep with his next bit of explanation:

"[This is based on] his skill set," Thomas said. "Austin, God bless him, is not a tackle. He does not have the speed that you need to be able to block edge rushers. He does [have heavy feet].

"I think he's very well-suited for guard, for center, but he's not really tall or lanky. He's not a basketball player. I think typically you want your tackles to be kind of former basketball players."

By basketball players, Thomas means guys who are agile in multiple directions -- like Thomas was.

So what does this battle in Cleveland become? One of adjustment, perhaps. Bitonio played tackle at Nevada, but hasn't done so since he reached the NFL. He's become one of the league's best guards rather quickly in that time, which lends encouragement to the thought he might be able to adjust quicker than most. And there's still Coleman, though Thomas and I didn't talk much about him, and Spencer Drango, who enters the conversation if the Browns are moving a starting guard out wide.

It's also intriguing in the long term, because it adds a layer of foresight to GM John Dorsey's draft strategy. While many (including this guy) were fooled into thinking it was about tackle, it might have been about the interior all along.

so, I'll guess he's either a center or a RG and we release Zeitler

To me, releasing Zeitler would be a huge shock. He’s one of the better guards in the league and we wouldn’t gain much cap space. I feel like Corbett was basically an expensive depth move.

I didn't "get" the Corbett pick from day one. Then again, I didn't "get" most of our picks.

I tend to agree. I mean, I "got" the Ward pick and obviously Mayfield ... but Corbett was not expected and/or needed IMO

Now, if we would have targeted a true LT (there probably wasn't one in this draft), then I'd get it

IIRC, the consensus was that the LT pool in this year's draft was quite shallow.

Yet, we drafted a dude who isn't really a good LT prospect at the top of the second round.

I love the job Dorsey did in FA and w/the trades, but man, his draft really disappointed me.

I figured he might contend for a tackle spot. It was a high investment for an interior lineman, but maybe in the long run it'll be seen as a very good pick. Geez though, #33??

I’ve got no problem drafting an OLman in one of the first three rounds every year ... u can never have enough ...

Never even heard of dude .... there were NO LT’s in this draft ... NONE ...

If he was who we had rated as our #1 OLman and best available player at the time of that pick ... i’m 100% fine with the fact he projects as an interior OLman ... would i rather have a tackle ... ABSOLUTELY ... but there were NO LT’s and RT’s were of almost as poor of quality ...

I hope it works out like we all do ...

U can never have enough OLman .... problem is we NEED TACKLES and this FA and draft SUCKED ASS at those positions ...

Whoever said too cut Zietler .... did u mean this year or in 2 or 3 years? No clue why we’d cut him now ... makes zero sense ...

j/c

No mention of him, but I will assume that from the last I read, Greg Robinson was being considered for the LT spot. Anyone got an update on him?

Ya ... he still stinks .... ...

Can u say ... throw crap at the wall and see what sticks ... sad but true ...