DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Social justice and the destructive message of the NFL players kneeling during the national anthem.

The NFL players said they were kneeling to call attention to social injustice.

But here’s what their real message is:

The White Man is putting down the Black Man and keeping the Black Man down.

That’s the message.

First off, this is an outright lie.

For the past 40+ years, any black man or woman who applies themselves even just moderately, is guaranteed a greater chance of success -.just based on their skin color.

Here, success = stability and happiness.

Any black who applies themselves in school or work or the military or whatever endeavor, has a better chance of success than a nonblack.

Every school and every company in the U.S. is desperate for qualified black applicants/employees. And all things being even close to equal the black candidate has the advantage.

That’s the intention of racial equality laws.

Laws giving advantages to blacks to “catch-up”.

That’s fine, but it’s been over a generation now and these advantages are going way under used.

Why?

Life is hard. A good life isn’t free. One man builds a house, one man makes the bread. Both men thrive. It’s called society. You got to go to school, to work. You can’t sit around doing nothing.

This is what the NFL players’ message should be about.

That social justice can be achieved. That there are great opportunities for blacks to succeed

For many black children, these NFL players are the biggest and often only source of inspiration and guidance.

Here is another way of looking at the NFL players’ message: Don’t bother trying. It’s not your fault. It’s the White Man’s fault you’re a failure.

The NFL players’ kneeling during the national anthem is injurious to society.

Now, I doubt social justice regarding race will ever be achieved. And the Black protest of social injustice will continue to grow.

trolololol

Didn’t you just make a post about this not even a week ago?

Just wow..the take away I get here ....is a message that says we’ll probably never stop being socially separated and unequal by race but the NFL players message should be just that. Do it offline, anyway BUT taking a knee to help achieve SOCIAL JUSTICE and inequality in the USA during the NA at a football game. A game that has more minority players than not. Good luck with that. It’s headed for the Supreme Court someday.


IMO The NFL players have done great work in exposing the culprits of inequality and should continue to do so by these types of protests until they achieve social justice in the USA. If you don’t like it watch the NHL instead.

My dog’s ears perked up when I opened this thread...weird.

Can't say I agree with the OP but not surprised at all at the first respondents.


There are 3 keys to being well off in the US.

1. Don't have children out of wedlock
2. Maintain a job
3. Don't go to prison


We can argue the circumstances but the black community as a whole isn't doing so well in those categories. All I know is that if I espoused my views, publicly AT WORK I would reprimanded at minimum. Not because they are particularly egregious but simply because it would alienate the other side…..and this is a business.

Leftists: Shut up and bake the gay man his cake or we will sick the government on you.
Also Leftists: Let the players do what they feel is right, why are you against freedom?

All of this waffling on the left exposes constant hypocrisy and dealing with people who are that entrenched in being an ideologue is a waste of time.

why bother having us on ignore if you're gonna read whatever we post anyway?

If the NFL players explained that they are taking a knee for religious reasons.The Trump supporters and the GOP sheep would still be up in arms and stand against them for doing it. Abundant hippcrocies abounds us.

Nice Strawman. In that case the NFL would still be well within their rights to put a stop to it.

Not if Sessions has his way with the Religious Liberty task force of his. Sometimes the webs we weave become our own prison.

I don't support any hackish partisan nonsense of any sort.

It’s only nonsense until it happens. Congress Agreeing to send humans to the moon was hackish partisan nonsense.

In consecutive posts you went from NFL players kneeling, to Trump supporters being sheep and religion, to Jeff Sessions to the moon landing. Conjuring hypotheticals to bash the right.

The point is clear to me. Using religion as a liberty to protest and denying service is good for some but not for all.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. That point I also thought was made clear.

Two Good points then. Lol

So they tell you what they are protesting for (or against in the case of police violence)..

You, who are not a part of the protest, decide that's not actually the real reason they are protesting and come up with an alternate reason...

Then you build an argument to prove that the alternate reason that doesn't exist isn't true...




My wife said she is mad because I hit her...

What she really means is she thinks I'm cheating on her..

let me explain to you why she's wrong because I'm not really cheating on her....

This has been the MO of those opposed to this all along.. it's about the flag, it's about the military, it's about the President, it's about hating the country.. it's about all sorts of things... except what it's actually about.. why can't y'all just take the word of those willing to kneel when they TELL YOU the reason they are protesting?

Exactly! Thank you DC.

IMO Many don’t believe that equality is a valid issue or needs correcting in any way so they deflect it and make it an issue that they can backlash it onto the protesters. I remember Nixon supporters doing the exact same thing to peace protesters in the 60’s and 70’s. He made us sound anti military and unpatriotic. We were only protesting for peace during the Vietnam war that nobody wanted.

Because that would give the protesters agency. And legitimacy. And if they have that, then their POV must be seriously considered. It's a difficult subject, so it's easier to simply see the messengers as villains/opposition/the other, and discount them out-of-hand.

The first order of business in a controversy/debate is to delegitimize the POV with which one disagrees. Those misdirects you described earlier in your post offer a cheap and easy way to stay in one's 'echobubble.'

The moment 45* started talking about 'disrespecting the flag/troops' I knew he'd hit upon a winning tagline. Not because it was so brilliant... or even remotely true. I knew it would make points for him because of how many people were ripe for any excuse to discount the players' message.

The same thing is being done to BLM in exactly the same way- and for the exact same purpose. As a result, there is now a significant slice of America's populace who believe that NFL players are ungrateful millionaires who hate America, and that BLM is a violent terrorist organization. Niether example is true, but those who wish to discount the players' points don't need them to be true. They just need to feel that their views are correct, and those misdirects give them permission.

And it all works because of Human Nature. Folks who are deaf to NFLP's and BLM view the police as defenders of their tribe, and by natural extension, deeply embedded members. They will tolerate no criticism of these fellow citizens (no matter how legitimate/justified) because "an attack on one is an attack upon us all."

It's identity politics at its most personal.

I see evidence of it all the time when I come here. I don't bother railing on about it every time I see it because:

1. Those who I'd most like to reach are the least likely to let me in
2. I'm old, tired, and have been doing it ever since my voice dropped from 'boy' to 'man.'

Some of those I'd love to reach aren't bad people at all. They aren't card-carrying Klan members, Stormfront fans or even Cop fetishists. They're just ordinary people who don't like messages that make their comfortable way of seeing Life- uncomfortable.

Colin Kaepernick, DeRay McKesson and others like Ta-Nehisi Coates are speaking out. They are not making things Comfortable. They aren't wrong... but some fellow Americans can't afford to let them be right, either.

Change is the one constant which Man constantly resists... and there is a national movement to bring about change in our nation's policing policy. Some departments are already embracing this, in an effort to determine if change can be equated with improvement. If they meet with success, others will follow.

And maybe then, Kaep, DeRay, and even ordinary everyday mssg board guys like Clem can be heard by the Law & Order/pro flag/team blue group.


p.s. this post comes from a guy who as a kid grew up inside the blue circle. Those guys were my uncles, my extended family. Still doesn't keep me from seeing what the knee is all about as well as supporting good policing. My brain is capable of holding both thoughts at the same time.

Whatever. Doesn’t mean everyone shares those views. Some people don’t think equality is all that important to protest for, others do.

Or..........perhaps he believes in what he is saying.

God forbid he speak his mind if it doesn't align w/one's own beliefs.

I have no problem with his beliefs or words. He has the right to speak up. Just as all the other players have a right to peaceful protest as they wish.

Perception and reality are two different things, especially in today's world.

I understand the protesting and kneeling, and that AT FIRST, the kneeling was about injustices against minorities from police. HOWEVER, the perception of someone kneeling while the anthem is playing is and will always be a sign of disrespect to some, right or wrong, its just how some people view it and that's not going to change.

I will say though, the kneeling has been turned completely towards Trump getting involved, and has lost its original intent. Perception, possibly, but that's just my perception at this point.

I get what your saying, and I agree that is normally the case. However there were plenty of people that PERCEIVED it as disrespectful to the flag BEFORE Trump got involved. This was going on almost a year before he started tweeting about it.

Personally, I never really had problem with it. I just want to watch a football game. Whatever happens before hand, happens. But I can certainly see the PERCEIVED notion of it being disrespectful, and as a country we have a strong history of supporting our troops as much as we can.

Regardless of the reasoning of the kneeling, even the explanation after explanation, anyone that thought it was not going to be perceived this way by a lot of people means it wasn't thought through.

Eww boy. This is the GOP calling card in perfect form. Backlash it. Turn it upside down so it’s about disrespecting some. Every protest will disrespect the people that support what they are protesting against. Get over it. Stand on the side of equality! United we stand. Divided we kneel.

I don't think you even realize what you said. The argument is the protest is disrespecting the troops and flag, those protesting say that is not the intent (which I agree with). You are now saying it is.......

The nicest thing that I can say is that you are totally clueless and have to be trolling.

There are differences educational and economic that make a difference and cannot be ignored. There is more crime and more dysfunction. Come back when the underlying issues have been addressed and you may have a point. But not know. It’s easy to stand off to the side and critic when you are removed from the situation.

Respectfully disagree.

As with any protest, the act itself risks dismissal by a certain segment of the population, regardless of message or method. There is literally no method the players could have used that would have met with the approval of those inclined to view them as the opposition.

On the contrary, it is well-documented that Kaep consulted several vets before he began his silent demonstration, and those vets told him about the tradition of taking the knee being an expression of respect. By extension, the very people who took Kaep to task did so either ignorant of the vets' tradition or in defiance to it because of who Kaep is.

Like I said in my OP, those who were/are disinclined to respect the demonstration would do so no matter how it was displayed. It has almost nothing to do with the gesture itself... it has everything to do with the mindset of the person passing judgement about the demonstration.

It would seem that we have reached that chicken/egg part of the discussion. I'll respect your POV even if we see this from different vantage points.

I concede that point yes. However, I would say contend that there would be more centralistic people that would listen if it was done differently. I agree, you have your stouts on each side of every debate, and nothing is going to change their mind- just click on any thread in here to see that

I am speaking more to the those like myself. At first glance, I truly thought it was disrespectful towards THE FLAG and MILITARY. I have since come along to understand that was not the original intention (or still the intention to more accurately report it), but I perceived it that way when it first started happening. I would say there a lot out there that still view it that way simply of the perceived notion.

I think the argument for or against that we are speaking too relies on the people you are perceiving in your mind. Your thinking about a red hat MAGA wearing bud drinking middle aged white guy I believe, and I am speaking of just the average joe that wants to watch a football game, not really following what is going on - and all they see is a player kneeling when the anthem is playing. Perception

Good talk, I agree and see what your saying, I just still contend my points above.

Not necessarily. In my OP, I attributed this to Human Nature, and that transcends the narrow confines of the demographic you described. All people are susceptible to such bias; it simply bears itself out in different ways, under different circumstances.


This has been an interesting discussion. I'm willing to take it one step further, with a little thought exercise. Here goes:

Clem has just snapped his magical fingers, instantly transforming willitevachange into Colin Kaepernick, in those days immediately leading up to his first demonstration that preseason. He knows that remaining silent is not an option for him; he cares too deeply about this issue. He also knows that the demonstration must be expressed at his workplace to be effective.

How would willit Kaepernick choose to exercise his 1A?

You’re deflecting that it ‘s about the troops again?

The only people being disrespected by this type of protest are those who don’t want equality. Should I include you?

He's really not deflecting anything. He's pointing out that's the perception those who know nothing about the situation perceive from the optics.

He even admitted in the part you quoted that he understands that's not the actual intent of the protest.

Let’s see. We can rule out most public protests and marches....they haven’t worked.

MLK tried the freedom marchs in the 60’s. Usually Met with police brutality. And later gunned down. Million man march. Met with belittling and ridicule and called deadbeat dad march. Counter protest KKK and white supremacy rallies. Met with clubs and run down by a lunatic racist killing 1 while police watched.

Kneeling for the NA disrespects the racists. Or some ceo is butt hurt because their bottom line shrunk. Boo Hooo

#factsoverfeelings honestly, he cant even see past his own hate to have a logical discussion on the topic. I get its a hotbed issue - but the problem is that EVEN WHEN SOMEONE IS AGREEING with something, there are those that still want to argue with you and point fingers.

This is also I would like to point out, why the left cannot draw voters from the other side.

Honestly, I am exactly the type of person they need to be making a case too. I am 32 year old agnostic that has voted equally dem and republican in the two elections I have voted in. Yet even when I agree on a topic with someone on the left, they are trying to sling mud because although I agree, I am still able to keep an open mind and hear out the other side. it gets to a point where people like me are saying "you know what, forget this crap, im voting against people like you. "

And this is why I was asking willit what form his protests would take.
My point being: there probably isn't a damn choice he might make that wouldn't tick someone off.

But, I said 'probably' because I want to afford him an honest opportunity to 'thread the needle' with more precision and dexterity than Colin.

If he could come up with one, that would be pretty cool... it might even be adopted by the next aggrieved group when it's time for them to disseminate their message.

If you keep standing by the statement, "You need an I.D. to buy groceries" I can understand their confusion.

nrtu


Just my .02....

I believe that the protest involving the NFL players has been both a huge success and a dismal failure.

On one hand, they were able to get the attention of the media, and therefore, the nation, to bring about a national conversation with regard to how African Americans, and their communities are being treated by authorities and the criminal justice system. On the other hand, despite the best efforts to bring about the discussion as a catalyst for change.....the protests were quickly neutralized as the narrative behind the players taking a knee got lost in a media frenzy over who was being disrespected/disrespectful when these athletes took a knee...

Meanwhile, its business as usual, institutionalized racism dripping from nearly every orifice of the criminal justice system....