DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Learning how to win

When bad teams start to acquire talent, "learning how to win" is often brought up as a reason they struggle and lose close games.. it's been said about the Browns many times in a variety of different contexts.. Some people call it part of a "losing culture".... It's one of those things, "they" say, that separates teams like the Patriots and the Steelers from other teams..

For two weeks now I have seen a Browns team make the plays that need to be made, that we would have never made in the past.. holding the Steelers to a 40+ yard FG instead of allowing them to march in for a chip shot, the fumble and recovery against Big Ben to set up our potential game winning FG.. the late TD against the Saints, forcing the FG and getting the ball back (though I'm still confused why they threw twice), getting back into FG range with a couple nice long completions...

This team is making plays that will start to result in wins (FG kicking aside).. in years past they would crumble in the final minutes of close games and let teams have their way with them by either marching down the field against us or forcing a strip sack if we had the ball....

I know what you are saying, "But you can't say they are making plays that win games... if they still aren't winning games." Yes, I can. We are making big plays in big moments and the winning will come..

Look at the Patriots/Seahawks super bowl. The Patriots made the play, the interception at the goal line, that won the game for them... they also let the Seahawks march down to the 3 yard line... they didn't make EVERY play, they just made the final play. We just haven't made the final play yet... and from the looks of it, we should not leave the final play up to the FG kicker to make... but even as my own frustration rages inside me, that frustration is a result of knowing how close we really are...

The fact that these last two games were again teams that are among the favorites to reach the Super Bowl, and we were two kicks away from winning both, makes me hopeful. The last few years, these games would of been blow-outs against us. Instead, we're nearly pulling off huge upsets.

If we were losing these kinds of games against the dregs of the NFL, I'd really be much more upset. We should be able to win the next couple games.

Not so much with the Saints.. but every single time the Steelers had the ball in the 4th quarter and then in OT, I had this sick feeling of certainty in my stomach that this was the one.. this was the drive when they regained their mojo and just marched it down our throat and proved that they are still the Steelers and we are still the Browns.. but it never happened.

I had the same sick feeling last week and this week too.

We fought to the bitter end and that is a positive sign. Good call.

People talk about learning to win, but I don't think you learn to win as much as you decide to win.

The Browns have probably beat themselves half a dozen times over the past 2 seasons, with a key mistake, or a defensive letdown after a key offensive mistake. Winning teams overcome mistakes. Losing teams let them stick in the gears, and gum up the works.

The Browns have to decide to become winners. They have to decide that they can beat whatever team is lined up against them. They'll still lose some, obviously, but until they decide to be winners, they'll remain losers.

Decide to be a winner, or remain a loser. Yes, I firmly and absolutely believe that the mental side is that important.

this was kind of the intent of my thread.. there is this notion that winning teams never make mistakes or give up plays in crunch time, they do... they just overcome them by making plays of their own more often than not.

We have started to make those plays.. like the busted coverage that allowed the Saints to go easily down the field into FG range yesterday.... we stuffed them there, preserved some time, then got ourselves quickly back into FG range.. that is not something the old Browns would have done. They would have given up a first down, allowed them to run the clock down and kick it at :00... or we would have got the ball back and thrown an INT or had a strip sack fumble...

My point is that we don't so much learn to win as we decide to win. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference.

This team has had to "learn to win" for years. They know what it takes from a technical aspect. They have to decide to do everything necessary to win ...... to refuse to lose without giving their last breath and last drop of blood. (figuratively, of course) They have to decide that they will not drop their heads when circumstances turn against them.

Last year we lost 4 of out 1st 8 games by exactly 3 points each. (one in OT) We didn't learn a darn thing from those games. Maybe the team didn't know how to win ..... but I say that they simply didn't make winning the end all-be all of their football lives. Oh, they wanted to win, but it wasn't so important that the only thing that mattered, on that field, was winning.

We went on to get blown out in most of our 2nd half games. The team learned nothing about winning, because they didn't win. That was my mantra early this preseason. Winning is what teaches a team to win. The players on the field have to decide that they will do everything necessary to win. You simply cannot let up in the NFL. That's what gets you beat, as much as anything. The team knows this. They just have to get their minds right, and decide to win.

I agree with YTown.

But to the spirit of the OP, every player on the team knows how to win. They have all been part, in most cases integral parts, of winning teams in HS and college. What is necessary is for the team to develop a collective spirit/will/identity/belief they not only can, but will win. Set backs will always happen, people make mistakes, and opponents do great things. When these things happen, winning teams overcome.

As DC points out, you can see it happening. Events that would have broken the spirit of the 2017 team, are inspiring this team to keep fighting.

I think it will happen Thursday. Not because the Jets are easy, they aren't. But like us, they haven't quite gelled their team identity yet. If the defense creates a turnover early, we can put them on their heels and make them play catch-up. Get them out of their game plan and end this winless streak.

Ytown, I don't think we are really disagreeing much.. more a matter of semantics.

Maybe. But it's essential to stop trying to win, and decide to win.

Every team tries to win. Every team wants to win. The Browns have wanted to win, and have tried to win. The thing they have not done is decide, no matter what, to win.

When things turn against them, they get a bad call, the other team makes a big play, they have seen a hundred ways they could lose, instead of deciding to win.

I don't know that the Patriots have had the most talented team, year in and year out, over the past decade. Oh, they have had talent, but it could be argued that other teams have had more talent. What they have had, and it starts with the coach and the QB, is a belief in their ability to win every game, no matter what happens to them in that game.

The Eagles lost their franchise QB, and won the Super Bowl anyway.They also lost their LT, Daren Sproles, and Jordan Hicks. Despite this, they decided that they were going to win, and no one was going to stop them.

That is what this team needs to get. They need a mindset that they are just as good as any other team in the league, and go out and win.

Forget trying, just do it. Hey, I should copyright that. Do, do not try. Hmm ... maybe I'll copyright that one too.

Regardless, the mental side of football is at least as important as the physical. We have had a ton of guys through here who, physically, should have been All Pros, but lacked the will to win. They have to want to win at least as much as they want their next breath. When that happens, this team will win.

Great thread! Like anything in life there is important characteristic called momentum. Once in play, it's hard to stop, either for the better or the worse. If we win tomorrow, coupled with our two close games against HOF QBs, I believe we will have momentum in the right direction. Go Browns!

I wish you would have put this thread in the Pure Football forum because I think it would be a very good ongoing conversation.

So, have that conversation here?

I said "ongoing." This forum is almost done.

I think there is learning how to win, and learning how to take advantages that are given to you. The Browns had a chance to stomp the life out of the Saints at the end of the third quarter, and instead, missed a field goal. I wasn't even in the building and I could feel that the Saints grabbed life from the opportunity given to them by the missed field goal.

Look at last week, Browns are given an unbelievable opportunity when Ben turns it over in OT and they themselves turn it over.

You know if the Steelers were on the other end of that turnover, they take that chance all the way home to Pittsburgh. Same with a lot of these other really good teams.

j/c

nice discussion here... some good points made. Winning can be an enigma and a very hard thing to define (especially when a team has lost so consistently) ... it almost seems like an unattainable goal, whereas a historically good team just assumes wins will happen.

I've found that when "bad" programs have good talent, a lot of times they are ahead in games ... and then the final 2-3 minutes they self-implode with dumb mistakes. Almost like they lose their brains like deer in headlights. Like they've psyched themselves up ... and then don't want to screw up.

Maybe the same doesn't apply to football, just rambling.

Wow. One of the refs must have moved this to this forum. That's pretty freaking cool. Nice job!!!!

I would like to comment on this topic, especially since it is one I have often discussed and it seems like the OP is using some of my quotes, albeit incorrectly.

I want to start off by saying I don't know if this team will learn how to win close games or not. I am not Miss Cleo.

I will say this. As a former player, I know for a fact that winning breeds winning and losing breeds losing. There is no denying that. You absolutely have to "learn" how to win games.

As a former coach, I know for a fact the above paragraph is true.

Back to the Browns:

We saw last year how we outplayed teams and found ways to lose the game. Hell, we saw it last week. You could see the faces of the guys on the sideline when Zane missed the first FG. Hell, I support Hue..........but, you could see it on his face, too.

We absolutely must win a close game or two. I hope we blow someone out first, which would raise our confidence. I think that might help us win a "close" game. But man, we absolutely must win a couple of games to break this losing culture.

It's a real thing. Trust me on this one. It's as real as it can get.

Nah, I think you're probably right.

The funny thing about the NFL is that being consistent is probably just as important, if not more important than being talented.

In the old days of football, getting that first lead was everything.

In today's game, I don't think it's quite the same, but honestly, not to go all John Madden on everyone, but you'd rather be up, than behind.

The Browns found themsevles up more than a score in that game Sunday, and it was almost as if they didn't know how to handle themselves. I would love to see some kind of a metric on the Browns, and how often they actually have had the lead, and what kinds of things happen when they do...

So since I'm bored with a drink and a laptop....

2017
Week 1 - Pittsburgh - did not have lead
Week 2 - Baltimore - did not have lead
Week 3 - Indianapolis - did not have lead
Week 4 - Cincinnati - did not have lead
Week 5 - New York Jets - The Browns finally found themselves ahead in a game, only lasted about 5 game minutes
Week 6 - Houston - did not have lead
Week 7 - Tennessee - did not have lead
Week 8 - Minnesota (London game) - The Browns took the lead right before half, came out afterward, fumbled the ball on the first play from scrimmage, lost the lead, regained it back, only to give it up for good following the score
Week 9 - BYE
Week 10 - Detroit - Browns had a 10-0 lead early in the first, only to give up 17 straight going into half. Browns went back and forth a little bit before giving in to the Lions
Week 11 - Jacksonville - did not have lead
Week 12 - Cincinnati - The Browns held a 3-0 lead for about 4 minutes after kicking off an opening drive field goal
Week 13 - Los Angeles Chargers - did not have lead
Week 14 - Green Bay - Browns blew a 21-7 second half lead, also note Aaron Rodgers did not play in this game
Week 15 - Baltimore - Browns grabbed a 7-3 second quarter lead only to give it away on the next drive
Week 16 - Chicago - did not have lead
Week 17 - Pittsburgh - did not have lead


Kinda seems like when a team wants to get serious with us, they attack us and we give in. Our offense obviously was horrible, and there was way too much FG kicking going on.

I have a question for you.

Do you understand the "why" of why "we give in," as you put it?

good point about "when a team wants to get serious with us" ... in the past, I felt that momentum shift and the other team's TALENT took over.

That shouldn't be the case anymore, but we have a self-fulfilling prophecy to lose. It brings our talent down IMO.

We are very much watching a young team learning how to win. In many ways the tipping point will come when the mental errors diminish and chemistry within the offense develops. We see this type of development all the time when the right staff gets put in place and teams begin acquiring high calibre talent, recently with the Rams, Jags, Vikings, and so forth. In time, we will be good, and I expect us to, if not win, be in most of the games we play this year. IMHO, we have the right staff, and the talent level is the best it's been since the return. And getting better. Another off-season, and with our #1 pick in at QB, I believe we'll see real, sustained success, with improvements in each subsequent year. (This is not a knock on Tyrod, but Tyrod is a rental.) For now, as fans, we are stuck with the growing pains as the team improves through repetition, situational learning, and as they learn to trust each other implicitly.

On a side note, it's interesting to me that this very young team would have overcome the two phantom calls by the refs that resulted in touchdowns for both opponents, or the blown kicks, to go on and win our first two games. But they were just unable to overcome both. As ironic as it was, that in itself is a phenomenal leap forward, especially considering they were playing against perennial contenders. Once this team turns it's fortunes around It's my hope the bogus phantom calls begin to disappear.

I’ve always kinda felt we have too many guys who seem to lose focus after positive plays. Like almost as if the previous feat was good enough and they lose their edge going forward. I think we have less of those guys than we’ve had in the last 5 years, which is obviously good.

Consistency is so important in the nfl. This isn’t a 162 game marathon or a 9 month ordeal like the NBA or NHL.

And when you’re a franchise that doesn’t have an elite QB like we’ve faced the first two weeks, you have to take advantage of every single opportunity presented in front of you.

The saints did not play a very good game, but still won. Bigger margin for error.

This is parallel to some sayings my dad shared when coaching us.

"Playing not to lose ball is very different than playing to win." We saw a bunch of the former with Hue last year IMO. And it paid off the same way repeatedly.

This group should break into the W column. But once again, one person failing can sink the team. I do not believe that we are done losing yet. Team wins matter now IMO. They can overcome some individual lapses. Probably not four or five as we can see.

J/C

Glad this topic was moved to pure football. To state the obvious, this has been a problem for a long time with this organization.

At this stage of team building winning or losing has become overwhelmingly mental. We have the physical talent to be a winning football team that wasn't always the case.

One important part of it was brought up when the idea of "playing not to lose" was raised. There has been a tendency to get tight when the team has been on the verge of a win. The Saints game really magnified that. So this is where another key mental factor has to overcome the tendency to play tight. The team has to develop the expectation of winning. This has to be difficult to do until you get a win under your belt. Some of the vets who've been added to the roster have to help set the expectation for that first win. They have not been contaminated with chronic losing. Hopefully, when the team gets a taste of winning then they should be a little loser and able to play confidently even in those crucial moments.

Here's what I WANT to believe - and I'm trying to believe it.

I don't think Haley is playing "not to lose". I think Haley believes that he has a feel for what his O can and cannot do...and he's not comfortable asking them to do things they aren't 'ready' to do.

I came to that conclusion from watching HK and his press conferences. JMO

We came to the same conclusion but in different ways. I've seen TT play quite a bit. Not as much as Diam has because he's much more closely located to the Bills.

I've been seeing exactly what I was expecting based on that. It may not be the type of game fans want to see but it's much better than trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

he came right out and said he needed to dial back and simplify the offense after pittsburgh. I think he will gradually open things up. But I agree, i don't think OC's play not to lose as much as maybe Defensive guys do

The Pats and Steelers have been mentioned as being elite franchises. That wasn't always the case. There was a time when they were the laughing stocks of the league. The Steelers were so bad they were giving tickets away to their games. No one wanted to pay to see that mess.

You know what turned it around for them. The Steelers hired a guy named Chuck Knoll for HC and hired a competent GM to acquire talent. The Pats did the same thing buy hiring Bill Belichick. Of course drafting some guy named Brady didn't hurt either.

Point is, it starts with the GM and the right HC. The Browns have the right GM now let's find the right HC.

j/c:

I was hoping that the conversation would stay on track because I know there really is something to teams learning how to win and how find ways to lose.

Somewhere the conversation switched to coaches "playing not to lose." It's one of the most over used phrases in sports. Most who say it never played the game, but it makes them look smart, as if they know more about play calling then the coaches do. LOL...I yi yi yi.


The coolest part is that fans and media members can have it both ways. They criticize coaches for "playing not to lose" and then go off on a coach like Hue for not running the ball more and being too aggressive last year.

Hmmmm.........he played to win and he lost. LOL

All coaches at the NFL level know how to call plays. They get the Xs and the Os. They all make some mistakes in both play calling and game management. Other times they do it right. It's kinda like any other job. It's also like the players. Sometimes they make the great catch. Other times they drop it. Sometimes they make a good block. Other times they miss it.

Our coaching staff is fine.

The interesting conversation is how a team learns how to win games and avoid losing them. That's a much, much deeper subject and more worthy of conversation instead of trotting out worn-out clichés.

j/c

When hearing the phrase "playing not to lose" I always just take it as "playing conservatively).

To me, if I don't trust my team's ability, my play calling becomes more conservative. If I think we are the better team ... it loosens up and I am more trusting.

I think you play to your players strengths. That will vary depending on your roster.

But Vers is 100% correct. Last year people were critical because we didn't run the ball enough. So according to many that definition means we were playing to win. Now we're running the ball more so "We're playing not to lose".

Seems like a vicious cycle and some won't be happy no matter the game plan.

In our first two games we came to a tie with what most considered a SB contending Steelers. The second game was blown by the kicker against a heavily favored Saints.

If that isn't working your way towards being a winner, I don't know what is.

Winners expect to win and losers expect to lose.

Just to be clear. At least when I raised the issue of, "playing not to lose", it wasn't at all about the play-calling. I would have said play-calling specifically if that were the case.

It was about executing plays with a subconscious fear of making a mistake instead of playing with the freedom of knowing if you execute your responsibilities to the best of your ability you are prepared to live with the outcome. Playing with that freedom increases your chances of being successful, at least that was what I was talking about. So whether the play is conservative or high risks just playing with the expectation that by doing your job well and trusting your teammates to also do their jobs well that you will increase your chances of winning.

Those two game are great examples of a young team needing to find ways to win the game instead of losing it or ending in a tie in the Steeler game. I hate ties.

We need guys to step up in the clutch moments and make big plays, whether it be a sack by Garrett, a great catch and run by Landry, or a damn kicker who can make clutch kicks.

It's hard to make plays like that when you are playing "tight," because you know you have lost so many close games in the past.

I am a huge believer in psychology in sports. Erasing negative thoughts is hard to do, but it is fundamental to success. You can't be at the free throw line hoping you won't miss. You can's be in the batters box and be worried about striking out. You can't be on the football field and be thinking that you hope you don't screw up.

Negative thoughts leads to failure.

The psychology of winning and losing is huge. This team needs a strong dose of tasting success. It could flourish into something supreme. If not, things are going to get real ugly.....again.

Yeah bro. I know. I wasn't calling anyone out. I was just hoping we could steer the conversation back to learning how to win and how to get past expecting to lose.

If you read my above post, you can see that I truly believe in the psychology in sports. If I were playing professionally, I would absolutely hire a psychologist to work on positive thinking in regards to my job.

Seems like you're looking for some kind of psychological answer when it could be as simple as having the right personnel. Since I'm not a psychologist, can't really give you the answer you're looking for.

which has a larger emotional capacity...the feeling of winning or the feeling of losing.??
when the Browns win on a scale of 1 to 10...how do you feel?
same question for losing....
isnt intresting how when the Browns lose...that feeling tends to stay up until ....Thursday....Friday...
but when the Browns win it seems like that feeling at times goes away sooner than later.
I think to win as a team everyone has to.have that same determination and desire to defeat that man lined up across from him.
I think sacrifice breeds winning..the fear of failing is a companent of winning.

Vers, no problem man. I absolutely agree there is a psychological component to winning. I wonder if hypnosis is legal in the league?

I remember when I played a lot of intermural basketball on multiple occasions when my team had been outplayed for most of a game and we're down by double digits. If we took a timeout, resettled ourselves emotionally and would commit to focusing on playing hard and together, not thinking about anything else, we could get on a roll and come back. Forcing a turnover would lead to a fastbreak basket. That would lead to getting a good defensive stop and a good open shot at our end, those types of plays would stack up on each other. We won our share of those games.

That tells me that staying completely in the moment, blocking out everything else and just feeding off the energy of good, high effort play can make a difference.