DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... A question about Christians

And if I am right, you'll never be alive to hear it

We keep it 100% respectful over here.

I'm not even sure what constitutes a christian anymore.

This may be the wrong place to bring it up, but I see a whole lot of "so called" Christians acting in a much less than a christian way based on my belief of what it means..

As Christians, it is not our job to judge them, it is our job to show them the love of God, so that he may show them the way to salvation..

It is also our job to share the Word of God, which includes sharing the Law, and God's perfect justice, and why that is important.

If a person never understands their sin, and the consequence of their sin, there is no perceived need to come to Christ.

Sharing the Law, and its consequences, is not judging someone any more than telling someone who is doing 55 in a 25 MPH school zone of the law and the consequences of violating the law.

I'm not an athiest. Karma isn't athiest. Karma is Hindu/Buddhist. I also doubt its existence. Most religions are based in banal platitudes, the ones that don't are cults.

Why do we pretend to know God's motives? He bet on Job's soul, destroying his life before rebuilding it. If he would do that to his most loyal subject, then what makes the rest of us above that?

I'm not sure that we do have free will. Also, how can you tell free will from an illusion of choice? If you never had free will, then how would you know what it looks like or feels like?

It's something that was decided centuries ago, don't ask me how. I think we have more than enough information now to realize that there are good and bad people inside and outside of all of the worlds religions.. because people are people.

To me, being a "good Christian" means you follow the teachings which will, without a doubt, make you a better person.. but that is a comparison I use to denote the difference within Christians, not to compare Christians to non-Christians.

If a person isn't open to hearing what any of us have to say about any topic, it's considered harassing/shoving beliefs down others throats/judging. And, by simply feeling the need to police another person based on your beliefs, you are most certainly judging. Let them deal with the consequences of each so called "sin" on their own.

I understand your point, I just look at it from a different perspective.

I believe, No amount of me pointing out their sins is going to make them change their mind, or reveal anything to them. Only when God enters their heart will those sins be revealed to them as such, and therefore, I believe it my job to love them and show them love as God loves them, in the hopes it opens their heart to God's love, allowing him in, and the healing begins.

Sharing the law is one thing, beating people over the head with it is another.. and it's a very bad way to try to lead people to Jesus. You lead people to Jesus through the love, the forgiveness, and the understanding.. then let them go from there.

To further your analogy, a 25 MPH speed limit was put in place by man, signs were erected, there is no ambiguity... but folks are free to interpret God's laws as they see fit. There may be no ambiguity in YOUR mind but you have to allow that there are different interpretations out there.

I agree that beating someone over the head with the Law is not the way to go, but neither is ignoring the Law.

The Law convicts the non-believer, and shows them why they need Christ.

I am not saying to beat anyone over the head with anything. I think that we have all done that with a variety of topics here, though, including myself. However, again, if we ignore the Law, we eliminate the need for Christ.

The Law was given to man to show him his sins. The law was given to show man his inability to be redeemed and saved on his own. Without the Law, there is no conviction of conscience and spirit. We don't have to "beat people over the head with the law", but when we speak with someone there are often times to introduce God, and His law, and then His gift of salvation, if we only listen to the Spirit, and obey. Telling someone that Jesus came to save them is meaningless unless the person realizes what He came to save them from.

Look at this country right now. Do you honestly believe that God looks at the behavior of people, and what people believe are their "choices" today and says "Oh, that's just fine"? Do you think that people see their actions as sinful today? If not, why not?

Sex is rampant today. Pornography, violence, lying, theft, hatred, anger, greed, envy, covetousness, idolatry, and so many others. Many of these are seen as either no big deal, or actually as desirable. If people don't know why they need a Savior, they will never seek, or accept, their need for Jesus Christ.

I think a large part of the problem comes when people don't realize they've slid over from "righteous" to "self-righteous".

Nope, I think he is probably fairly disgusted at the inappropriate anger shown.. at the greed.. at the selfishness.. at the lust in the hearts.. at all of it. And I'm just speaking of what he sees when he is looking at me, not "the behavior of the people"..

Historically I have tried to not guess what God is seeing or what He is thinking... but if we are right and he is looking at us right now.. he is totally disgusted... not with the gay community or the atheists or the gangbangers or the opioid addicts or the Muslims or the agnostics.. nope, he is most disgusted with the Christian church.. HIS church..

Because he looks inside His church and He looks outside His church and He sees very little difference. Sex scandals, greed, idolatry, hate, anger, bigotry.... and that's the behavior of the people INSIDE the church...

I've been outspoken in that I think churches get a bad rap because most churches try to be good churches, most church goes try to be good Christians.. and Christians do a tremendous amount of good in Jesus' name that never gets noticed or recognized.. but there is enough bad that I understand those who choose to stay on the outside and look upon the church as hypocrites who hold themselves in such high regard (and keepers of the law) while trying to save others from their sins.. while all the while, the regard they have for themselves, is grossly overstated and in some cases, it's an outright lie...

I am broken.. I'm not gay.. but I am, none the less, broken.. not more or less broken than somebody who is gay.. just broken. If a china tea cup is broken does it matter if it's broken in 4 pieces or 40 or 400? Does it matter if it fell off a shelf, got hit with a baseball, or a well-meaning person dropped it on the kitchen floor? No, it's still broken. So I'm not concerned with how or why somebody is broken... hopefully I can help them understand that Jesus (not the church or the minister or the congregation) but Jesus alone.. specializes in fixing broken.. whatever form that might take is between them and Jesus.

I agree that there are a lot of Christians who might just be Christians in name only. I think that if a person is living in willful, decided violation of the things that Christ taught, making purposeful decisions to violate what He taught, then they need to take a good look at themselves and determine whether or not they have ever truly accepted Christ as Lord. If a man is a Christian, and is going out and sleeping with as many women as he can, or if he is living with a woman in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, it is obvious that he is not convicted of his sin. If a man is using his position, in the world, or in the church, to gratify his own desires, it's obvious that he's not convicted of his sin. That's a dangerous position to be in. Christians should pray for forgiveness of their sins, and also for the ability to see their own sins. We so often allow "small" sins to turn into major sins without even seeing it happening. A young man looks at women with lust. He looks at porn. He starts a sexual relationship with a woman. I believe that this is one reason why Jesus said that just looking at someone with lust is adultery. We are creatures of momentum, and once we start down a path, it is often hard to reverse course.

The Bible says that those in positions of authority, who abuse their positions and lead others astray, will suffer worse punishment than "regular" sinners. I do fear that there are many of these today. Prophet is a widely misunderstood word today. We think of it as someone who foresees the future, but what a prophet is is a person who teaches God's word. Jesus said that there would be many false prophets, and with prosperity preachers, and such, I believe this is true today. I believe that Satan has placed his agents in positions of power inside at least some churches and denominations. There are now some so called Christian churches who no longer teach Christ, or the Gospel. They have become "feel good, do good deeds" merchants, instead of being advocates for Christ. There are some "Christian" denominations who no longer require that their individual churches teach Jesus Christ at all. I fear for them at judgement.

I also fear for those who feel that Jesus Christ, and His teachings, are only good for inside the church. It's like many Christians feel that Christ is only for inside the bubble, where they are surrounded by others who share their same beliefs. Once they exit the church building, all bets are off. I fear that many people feel that if they go to church on Sunday, or read their Bible once in a while, they are saved. That alone doesn't do it. It is faith in Christ alone, and if we have Christ, then we'll do as he taught. How do we do what He taught? We learn what He taught, and we strive to do those things, and we also allow Christ to work through us.

As far as speaking to others about their sin ..... look at what Jesus did with the woman who was about to be stoned, and the crowd who were about to stone her. He 1st made the crowd aware of their own sin, and when the woman thanked Him for saving her life, He instructed her to go and sin no more. Look at the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus took her through her sin, "You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband" Jesus gave her a glimpse of eternal life, (living water) even though the woman didn't understand it, exactly, and then convicted her of her sin so she would be ready to turn from her sin. (which she did, as he expounded upon His message)

As some know, I have been blessed to give the message at my church several times over the past couple of years. My last message, that I felt compelled to write, was on heaven, and how we have a really poor view of heaven. Often people think of Bugs Bunny, floating on a cloud and playing a harp .....or standing around all day long singing hymns and such. It will be so much more than that. It will be unrelenting joy, and we'll do all of the non sinful things we can imagine, and all to the glory of God. Botanists will be able to examine flowers from the inside, and create new types as they will. Painters will create incredible works of art, to the glory of God. Mechanics will build incredible cars ... musicians will play amazing songs. Pianos, organs, saxophones, synthesizers, trumpets, drum kits, and electric guitars will all be part of the heavenly chorus. Songs glorifying God will be in the form of classical, rap, country, rock, and traditional hymns. Most importantly, we will live in a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. Revelation tells us that we cannot even imagine how glorious heaven will be, so it will be even more amazing than the ideas I have proposed. We will remember our lives, but will live without sin. Imagine sitting down to dinner with Jesus and asking Him what he laughed at so robustly when he sat down to dinner with Levi (Matthew) and other tax collectors and sinners. Imagine meeting your great, great, great, great grandparents, or your great, great great, great grandkids. Imagine total strangers on earth being family in heaven. I think this is only a tiny sliver of what heaven will be like. Man, picture yourself standing before God, and hearing Him tell you how proud of you He is, and how much He loves you. I think that a lot of people have some ridiculously boring idea of what heaven will be like, and I think that Satan has had a hand in that as well. Make heaven less desirable, and you take a step in leading people away from it. I wish more pastors and priests would speak about heaven and how indescribably and unimaginably incredible it will be. No matter how incredible we think it will be, that's only a tiny part.

Anyway, I got off course here, but I feel that the whole picture should be presented, but many people fear sharing why sin is deadly, what an amazing gift God gave us in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us, and how indescribably beautiful and .. well .. heavenly, heaven will be. Each of these aspects must be presented, because without any of them, the entirety of all that Christ did for us, is worthless.

As to your last point, yes, we are all broken, but made whole in Christ. We should all be allowing the Spirit to work through us, and if we don't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, we need to get down on our knees and ask God to send His Spirit to us, to fill us, and guide us. As a Christian, we should be growing to become more like Christ, and not more worldly. If we aren't doing so, we better get on our knees, pray, and actually listen, and obey, God's voice. A person willfully committing the same sin over and over again, to the point where it doesn't even bother him, should consider whether or not they are following Christ at all. We need to turn ourselves over to Christ. If we do so, we will become more like Him, and less like the world, growing in faith on a daily basis. This might be harder today than ever. Sin is so accepted in today's world. It's hard to stand against sin. We all slip, but it should be a slip, and not a decision to sin. If we are deciding to sin, we have to look at ourselves, and whether
we have truly accepted Christ. We should exam our own lives and actions on a daily basis, and confess our sins, asking God's help so we don't commit them again. Again, if we aren't doing this, we should ask God for His help. Jesus taught that little sins become big sins if left unchecked. Big sins start out as little sins in our hearts. Those little sins need to be snuffed out, and can be with God's help. However, we have to allow God to help us.

OK, to anyone who has made it this far, thank you for reading. I hope this offers some insight.

Just a note from an Atheist about "sharing the word of god"; in my personal experience I am very familiar with the teachings in the bible. I do not read it daily nor do I feel the need to turn to it for any sort of guidance. Yet i have read it cover to cover a couple of times, trying to find the deeper meanings.

There are things I consider both good and bad in the bible. But the teachings of Christ as far as loving, forgiving, and not judging are lessons in being a quality person. These are lessons I learned on my own, the hard way at times. The bible is full of ancient arcane ideologies that do not apply today (i.e.- stonings), yet love is the universal and infinite truth of the human experience. If you are going to spread "God's word", then I suggest you focus on love bro, focus on love.

I don't like it when you a take long breaks.. I miss the old days when Jules...Browns babe and yourself posted on the Chat room...lol oh those days...




Far from it...I know that S under your name stands for Super Sweet !!!!

Love you, Deisle. Those sure were some fun times!

Hey, you think your way is the right way so I guess that's what you should continue. But let me tell you one thing I know for sure. Your method will do more to drive people away from the possibility of allowing Christ into their hearts than it will act to draw people to Christ.

I'm not sure how that helps anyone.

Pit, my friend. My thoughts:

Religion Isn't a problem... Politics isn't a problem...Rights to life isn't a problem...Big Foot and Ufos aren't a problem...Your Rights their rights my rights aren't a problem...

The problem is Beliefs... It's the simple fact that people have different beliefs on the same matters. Some people are able to accept and discuss another's beliefs.. Some people simply can't and want to tarnish the others beliefs.

It's even as simple as this board..We all believe in the Cleveland Browns... But We can't believe the way someone else believes in it..

I believe I'm right and if any of you disagree...well your just wrong...LOL...Just kidding. I really like 99 percent of everyone on this board..Why ? Because if I don't agree with your beliefs.. I know that I learn something from listening to them...

Love you all.. I wish you all the beast and happiness.. Believe me or not !! No matter how different our beliefs are.

Actually you would. When you honor your parents like you should it's the foundation of a parent child relationship. When you only want him to accept what you want and never what he wants then your just as guilty as he is. It takes two to have a relationship. When it comes to father and child it is only natural that the child should submit to his father and not the other way around.

We all have parents that at times drive us batty and make us shake our heads at times. You don't gain anything to be proud of though when you belittle and disrespect your parents though. There are lots of parents that don't agree with their children's life choices. Yet you still made it to adulthood in one piece(as far as I know). I think he did his job. Am I wrong? Did he not feed, clothe, and provide shelter for you? Do you honestly think he doesn't love you? Seriously?

I get he doesn't approve of your life choices and that makes you feel resentful. I get that he is FIRM in his beliefs even though those beliefs are against how you want to live your life. You knew who your father was when you made those choices and you knew he wasn't going to give up his core set of beliefs either. He IS who he IS. Same as you are. YOU made the choice to drive your father away when you CHOSE to live in a way that he brought you up to be wrong.

There is no culture in the world where parents are supposed to obey their children. You made your choices knowing full well your father would never approve. Your both just as stubborn and unforgiving as the other and neither of you will probably ever change. In the end though your the one who chose to disobey your father and leave him behind. Your not stupid. You knew what that would mean. Don't act like it's all his fault just because he won't change who he is and what he believes to suit your choices.

You should just accept him as he has always been and love him anyways. That is a child's duty to their parent. I promise you parents who aren't mentally damaged all love their children no matter how angry up upset they might get. We just can't help it.

I have always believed that it is greater to forgive than to be forgiven. Be the stronger person and forgive first even if they don't think they need it. It might hurt your pride a bit but there is no room for pride when it comes to love. Just love first and see where it takes you. That is what I believe anyways. I don't always succeed at it but I do try.

My father is a hardcore liberal. I am NOT. LOL. It takes a lot of patience and tolerance for us both to get along and most of it by me since my father is just as stubborn and mule headed as yours most likely. His way to win an argument is to just be louder than anyone else until you just give up in exasperation. I can't stand it. It drives me absolutely bonkers. There have been plenty of times I also have wanted to just say screw it and put him on ignore. For LIFE. Then I remember that my Bible teaches me to honor my father and my mother. I get ornery and rebel against it. Then it weighs me down till some time has gone by and I start to worry about the old codger and out of guilt I find myself calling him and seeing how he is doing. Then one thing leads to another and we are back to tolerating each other again. It's tuff. I get it.

In the end though we only have our parents for a short while. It's best to make use of that time with love instead of pride and stubbornness. Anyways I don't mean to come off so judgy but I hate to see parents and kids not getting along because I KNOW that it's always the result of BOTH parties being stubborn and inflexible about something or another. I'm certainly not any better than anyone else in that regard.

I truly and sincerely just hope you guys find your peace with each other and I will just leave it at that. Good Luck!

Going to adamantly disagree with this statement. Children - of any age - should not have to put up with mental, physical, or sexual abuse out of "duty" to a parent. That is the biggest load of manure I've heard in a while. Even parents have to EARN respect to get respect.

I’m not going to lay out my family dynamics here anymore than to say my father has gained the relationships he’s fostered. I love my dad. Of all his kids (with my mother) I’m the closest to him. I’ve accepted him for the man he is and love him because he’s my dad. Not because we’re ‘close’.
I’ve also watched how he treated, and the words he used towards, my older sister. I can’t blame her for generally wanting nothing to do with him. It’s his loss. She’s an amazing woman. A loving mother. His stubbornness and judgemental ways lost him a daughter and four beautiful grandkids.
You can put this on us kids all you want. But it’s on him. Period.
Know how I can tell? Because we all have a deep connection and love of our mother. A non Christian who has displayed more selflessness, compassion, and unconditional love, as God wants us to, than my Christian father. She fostered the relationship she has with us. I’ve been out of the house for 28 years and I’ve gotten a phone call from her every week since. If I don’t pick up the phone to call my dad every now and then I’d never hear his voice. He ‘forgot’ I guess that my doorbell works and my phone rings. Even after I’ve reminded him of such multiple times over the years.
Look, I love my old man but as the years wore on he chose to pull away. He drifted further and further right and became angrier and more entrenched in his ‘Rush Limbaugh’ world view. We, his kids, will never see the world through his lense. I’ve accepted it. So have my sisters on some level. We’ve told him he’s welcome around at the grandkids birthday parties and such. He’s always welcome in my home. The caveat is no conversations of politics or religion. We all know where the others stand on those subjects. No need to bring them up anymore. There’s plenty of other things to talk about. He struggles. I honestly think he just doesn’t like us much as people. We have little in common anymore except blood. Sad, but it is what it is.

That’s all. I’m out as far as this topic of discussion goes Razor. Cool?

I think that quote was listed in the AG report of what some of the priest told to the young'ins.

Your adding things I didn't say. I would never advocate any kind of child abuse at all. Thus I said, "unless they are mentally damaged." I don't believe any mentally healthy parent would abuse their children. There are plenty of folks suffering out there and who make mistakes in taking it out on their kids. There is a big difference between disciplining a kid and abusing them.

Anyways I wasn't even talking about that to begin with. I was talking about philosophical and personality differences. Parents and kids can vary quite a bit in what they believe since they are often at different stages of life and have really different perspectives based on life experiences. Good parents try to make it so their kids have an easier life than they did but that creates big differences in life experiences. I'm just saying you never know what your parent is truly dealing with or why they might be so hardened or crazy. It is true that as we get older that men have a tendency to become harder and a lot less patient as a general rule.(yes, there are always exceptions)

As kids of said people I think it's our job and duty to put up with it and love them anyways. I am NOT saying to put up with child abuse. However, they are people who put up with a LOT of crap from us growing up and sometimes as human beings they will say things that are too harsh or punished too harshly out of anger. I think it's ok to forgive that and to ask why it was deserved. I am sure ALL of us have been punished by parents in a way we thought was unfair at one point or another. Hopefully it was only here and there and not systematic.

Those who do it systematically do it either because of mental illness or because it's cultural or because they are just evil sobs. The first one can be treated and helped. The second one is very hard to change and probably won't outside of revolution. The third one is one you just get away from asap and never look back.

Again, I don't support any kind of child abuse. I have just been all over the world and I have seen so many cultural differences in what people view as abuse and what people view as normal and how from one generation to the next it can change a lot. I just choose to keep an open mind about it because it's a big world and not everyone shares my values or opinions. I myself hate punishing my kids because it hurts my heart something fierce. I do it though when it's needed because I know that kids need strong guidance if you want their behavior to fit what you think is needed to be accepted by societal norms.

Kids can get even more angry when you ignore their bad behavior and let them get away with things when they KNOW they are being bad. They will feel like you just don't really care and get crazier and crazier till they get a response from you. It's better to stay on top of it and be consistent IMHO. That doesn't always make you popular but I believe a parent is a parent and not meant to be your best freind. We do what is needed and necessary and not what is popular to make sure I kids become good people and not spoiled brats.

It's not easy to be a good parent. A lot of tough decisions are made. Some are good and some are mistakes. Still I think parents deserve respect whether you think they deserve it or not. Maybe we become too different to admire them or want to be like them but they deserve respect for the sacrifices they make to just be there for us in their own way.

If they abuse you then they failed to be a parent and lose that right. You can choose to forgive or not. It's up to the individuals in that situation. Some do and some don't. I don't judge them either way. But outside of abusive parents they deserve your respect whether you think they do or not. That is my opinion and it will never change.

I think our dad's might be pretty similar =) I am not as hard as you might think I am though. I am pretty rigid in my beliefs but I seldom expect others to live up to my rigid standards. I just know it's not realistic. I'm an old fashioned PRUDE. I was even at an early age. It's just who I am. The difference is that when I was young I was violent. When I got saved that desire for violence left me. So now I am more like a quiet old man who keeps to himself unless someone asks for my opinion or in the case of this thread, a question. Whether face to face or on the forums my answers are always the same. I do try to be tactful and polite but some things I am more passionate than others. Family and family values is probably the most important thing in the world to me. To me family is always first no matter what.

That doesn't mean my family is perfect or that I am perfect. God knows I have screwed up plenty in either trying too hard or getting lazy and selfish at times. But it's family so I just have to get back up and keep trying and do my best to get better at it. My entire belief system is built around that. So when I hear the pain your family is suffering I know it's real and it makes me want to reach out to you a bit more. I just know that as a stubborn son myself that it's not always my Dad's fault. I don't agree with him on many things but it's not all his fault.

My dad is similar to yours in that if I don't call first it could be months till I hear from him until he wants something from me. At this point in life I have done far more for him than he ever did for me growing up. I think his coldness to me his whole life is why I work so hard to be affectionate towards my kids. I know he loves me. It's not in the way I would like but it's in his own way. I made my peace with that a long time ago.

So yeah man it's all cool =) My only goal in this nice discussion we had was maybe put a crack or two in some walls you had built up but after talking with you more I think you have already been working on that yourself so I will just but out =) Thanks for keeping it civil while we talked about things and again I wish you and yours much success =)

Not sure what you mean willi. For myself I was writing strictly from my own experience and my own heart. I think Michelle was too. I think she misunderstood my intentions but I hope that I cleared it up for her.