DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Tip of my hat to Mr. Jackson ...

That's true. Anytime Hue makes a decision that doesn't work, there are certain posters and media members who are going to blow it out of proportion.

And to add onto that, let's think of it another way. Guys like peen are saying we would have won if we had kicked the FG and that it's Hue's fault we lost.

So, by that line of thinking, should we blame Baker for losing the game? He had the first down. And if we go on to score a TD there, we automatically win the game, right?

Doesn't that scenario sound rather moronic, unfair, and short-sighted? No one who is fair and objective would dare blame Baker for losing the game due to him not securing the ball and fumbling backwards after he had the first down. Yet, the same rational thinking is not afforded to Hue.

I agree Vers .. the future is bright as all get out ..

I don’t see the thief caving unless the team melts down or Hue melts down at his presser (witch he appearantly didn’t do ... no ones disputed he was answering a question ... he messed up the answer but if all he was doing was answering a question ... i’d Hardly call that throwing someone under the bus ... ) ...

I don’t see the thief pulling the plug based on what we’ve seen so far this year ... NO REASON at all to pull the plug IMO ...

Hue hasn’t been perfect .. no coach has or ever has been .... its just not how it works ...

And i don’t see this team quitting ... good gosh are they RESILIENT for such a young bunch ... most of the them have NO CLUE what there even doing yet ... but they don’t quit ...

The get hosed by teh refs in Oakland .. come back and beat the rats ... a game no one gave us a chance in ...

They get blown out by the bolts .... follow that up with a bad first half against the bucs ... then make me proud as a peacock and fight like dawgs and play a really good inspired second half ...

There’s lots of POSITIVES getting drown out by the L’s .. just like before the season and the reason i started the Optimism theme was folks not seeing the talent that was right there in front of all our eyes ... now they believe in the talent but its getting drown out by the GUT WRENCHING L’s ...

But just like the talent that was there that everyone was to afraid to aknowledge before teh season the positives are now being overlooked cause of the L’s ...

Hopefully the thief stays strong Vers ... if he don’t ... i said it yesterday on a few other posts and bone said it in PM’s .... the two key pieces are the GM and QB ... we have a gm that knocked it out of the ball park kin year 1 ... so theres hope we have the right gm ... Bakes got a shot ... theres plenty of hope there ...

If the thief whimps out .. at least we have hope the two key pieces are good ones and no matter the SUPPORTING CAST finally has a NICE TALENT BASE FOUNDATION to work with ...

The futures bright dawg ... i can’t choes what others do .... but i can choose what i do .... i’ll Focus on that ...

j/c

I've stayed away from the 4th down decision talk because hindsight is always 20/20...but I WILL say this...during Hue's entire tenure here, I have all-too-often found myself frustrated and befuddled NOT by the decision itself...but by the play and playcalls BEFORE 4th down.

We were not executing well in the first half. We had 3 points staring us in the face to end the half or go for it on...what...4th and 3? As Peen has stated numerous times, the 4th down play was instantly blown up. Shocker. The way we were executing AND the early-ness of the game BOTH dictated kicking the filed goal there.

In the second half at the goalline...2nd and 1. If you are willing to use 4 downs to get the TD you must commit to that understanding on 2nd & 3rd down. TB was without their stud DL. If you understand that you are willing to use 4 downs...run the ball three times from the 1. The TB defense is awful. Hue's playcalling the last two years leading up to 'going for it' on 4th down has regularly been head-shaking. Last Sunday was just another example and leads me to believe that Haley and Hue were NOT on the same page on these 4th down decisions.

If anyone thinks a head coaching change won't result in another complete overhaul of coordinators, coaching staff & players, and put us into another start over mode is dreaming. The only sensible thing to do is stay the course. We should get enough wins this year to keep Hue's job safe, and anything else we experience are the growing pains of a young team on the way to becoming a very good team. You can see it if you squint.

I don’t agree with u .. we see a few things differently ... i’ll Elaborate later ...

I haven’t heard or seen anything about players turning on him ... is that more rumors? ... everything else u said has dots that can be connected to form your conclusions but that one ... one major sign of player discord would be them quitting on him .. thats never happenend ...

What u say is logical and does make sense ... can’t argue it from that angle ... *L* ...

With the stretch of upcoming games your scenario is not implausible ...

I’ll be back to elaborate ...

Thanks for answering ... appreciate it ....

This reply is to piggy-back on what Diam and Cal are talking about.

I think the coaching has been fine this year. I don't see any glaring miscues. I see a team that fights hard. I see a team that is improving. My only negative is that we commit too many penalties and that is on Hue. He has to get it cleaned up.

Diam, I know you talk about the "thief" a lot, but I think you have to recognize that Dee is in the picture. I think the decision-making of ownership has dramatically improved since she arrived on the scene. She gives me hope for the future because she seems more level-headed than her emotional husband. And again, she certainly understands how the media works.

I also think Cal is all over this and it's the biggest reason I support Hue as much as I do. If we fire Hue, we are going to have another roster overhaul because the new guy will want his "type" of players. We will also probably make dramatic changes in the coaching staff. Thus, it's one step forward and 2 steps [or more] back.

We've seen that movie too many times to not realize that it is the truth. People consistently have said that we have the talent, we just need a better coach. And then reality sets in while the new guys make dramatic changes.

I think a lot of people can see that this team is trending in the right direction. I hear it from Steeler fans. The national media is giving us more props. Guys like Diam, Pit, and myself are seeing it and we have always been more critical of the talent and direction of the team.

I truly hope the powers that be will drown out the manufactured noise from a certain group of people and have the fortitude to stay the course. It's our best shot at future successes.

So does Greg Williams

j/c:



I think this is an issue also overlooked right now.

Well if you ask some ( I believe another poster referred to them as "hue honks" in another thread), its a giant conspiracy to get rid of Hue. Its the rest of the sports world that's crazy - not the 5 or 6 people that defend him with every last breath no matter how blatant the mistakes he has made.

A total rebuild wouldn't be necessary if Dorsey hires a guy who sees things his way. I would assume he would hire a coach(if one is hired) who he thinks he can work with.

I think Hue Jackson should have been canned last year, however his call to go for it on 4th there, was in my eyes the correct call. You were down, and the offense was lethargic. He was trying to bolster their confidence by picking up a crucial down and have a positive play. Sometimes, that's all an offense needs is to see ONE guy put forth an effort to get the rest of them to rally behind. That's why we drafted Baker - that's what he brings. He brings that drive and effort to motivate others, and if it wasn't for the fumble, he would have done exactly that.

So Hue deserves every ounce of criticism he receives in my eyes - but not for the 4th down call. I was perfectly ok with it.

I agree with the 4th down call as well.

Is that what happened in La with the Rams when they fired Fischer? Just curious. . . .

Sometimes, SOMETIMES - its the coach that's holding you back.

Poor Hue. No one will get him the players he wants so he can win...

Of course

I wonder if John Dorsey, during his time with the Chiefs, ever wondered if they should have kept Romeo Crennel.

2-14 is no big deal! He only got one season. We need continuity!

Diam,

I'm not Memphis, but I think he's done as well.....unless they start winning games quickly. It isn't about whether he's done a good job or not this year either. According to multiple reports Haslem/Dorsey think the team is good enough to win now, and they aren't. You or I might disagree with the premise that they are good enough to win now, but in this particular situation our opinion doesn't matter.

Just my opinion, but I think you are of the mindset that Hue was getting a fresh start at 0-0 this year. I don't think Haslem and Dorsey held that particular position and they saw a guy who was 1-31 who needed to win games this year. I also think him tossing the blame to Haley for offensive woes did him any favors either.

I don't agree with it, and have said I would give him the entire year to see what the finished product looks like, but I just don't see how he survives the three games coming up against the Steelers, Falcons, and Chiefs. Whereas I thought the last four games were winnable, I don't see a winnable game in that phase schedule. Heck I'll be happy if we can maintain competitiveness in those games. JMHO but the blood is in the water and the sharks are circling.

Wait!

Are you guys telling me that the Chiefs went 2-14, changed head coaches and made the playoffs?
Are you saying that the Rams went 4-12 and the very next season with a new HC made the playoffs?

Nah. Somethings up... that can't be right... did no one tell them it takes 2-3 years before a new coach can start winning?

Probably just talking about the refs, but......

Lets not forget that Philly did as well - and eventually won a SB.

Doug Marrone took a 3-13 Jags team to the AFC championship game

Mike Zimmer took over for the Vikes and improved the first year he was there to 7-9, then made the playoffs year two.

In 15 Dan Quinn took over a 6-10 Atl team, improved his first year - and then has made the playoffs the next two.

It happens more often than some would like to admit.

The only time its feasible to keep a guy for continuity purposes, is if that guy is worth keeping, and has shown they can win games.

We have a team capable of being .500 club, there is no doubt in my mind with this roster. Anything less is a failure on the coaching staff. Plain and simple.

He could be talking about a cousin for all we know. And I also don't think Rendell has enough clout to make any type of decision making on the team with a tweet. JMO

And bye week is coming. I think some storm clouds are in Berea to stay. Most of our games were winnable to some varying degrees. And they are bad enough, long enough to lose consistently. Can't win? Can't remain. Dorsey doesn't need much of a reason for what he does. This could be in the works. Wish it was better now.

Are you also telling me that Fisher wouldn't have succeeded in LA and that Bradley doesn't make the AFC Championship game, and that Romeo doesn't go 11-5 the next season...?

Or just what matters is they hired someone who did succeed.

His entire career tells you that. He has had 6 winning seasons in 17 I believe - and is referred to as the king of 8-8. He was also 4-9 with LA and then the next year they were a good team.

Yes, I am saying Romeo doesn't go 11-5 lol.

I believe it matters that they all got a guy that succeeded despite them.

My take on Hue:

There is no disputing that in his 1st 2 years we were a bad team talent wise. But Hue did a terrible job. With a good HC we would have won 4-5 more games in those 2 years than we did. Possibly even more than that. I attribute those loses directly to Hue.

This year, he has significantly improved. He has not been a horrible HC. Still not good but he has been okay.

Right now, Hue is on thin ice. In my mind there is no reason to fire Hue now. He should have at least until the bye week and then re-evaluate. As long as the team keeps playing hard, he should get to the end of the season then decide based on the results of this season. Not just wins and losses but team effort and improvement.

I do believe that come end of the season Haley is gone. If we keep Hue there is no way I see him staying. If we fire Hue, I think the new guy brings in his own OC.

It's all good. There were two 4th down plays. One I disagreed with...no big deal. The second one I agreed with but with a twist...I don't think the coaches started at 2nd and goal knowing they would go for it on 4th down, if necessary.

On the first 4th down attempt we were playing like crap up to that point. Thinking we would miraculously gain 3 yards there was a stretch.

On the second one, why not run it three straight times when the TB defense was down their best player? Or stretch the filed a little and make the D think about Baker's mobility and accuracy? The calls up to 4th down didn't make sense and that wasn't the first time I've seen that under Hue as HC.

In the end, I am not questioning the decision to go for it as much as I'm looking at how we were executing up to the two 4th down attempts.

That is pretty much how I see it as well. I hope he gets the entire season and then he is evaluated on his performance. I don't think that will be the case, but maybe they prove me wrong this time.

I just can't see how firing a guy mid year will improve the team or the situation, and I keep going back to the point I made earlier in that if a guy was on such thin ice that you were looking to fire him at the bye if things didn't go great why not just fire him last year and rip the band-aide off?

The only legitimate reason I can see for firing Hue mid year would be if they deem he is hurting Baker's development, and I have not seen any evidence of that whatsoever.

I really think the only reason Hue wasn't fired in the offseason was Dorsey wanted to get a year to assess everything and come up with a long term plan. I don't think Hue is in it. Had he won alot this year then I think Dorsey would have been like cool, that worked out. But I don't think he really counted on Hue being something he isn't...a good HC

You typically don't, as you don't go into a series thinking you are going to be stopped, you go in thinking you are going to score unless you are backed up on your 1.

I don't think so. Its the NFL. That first down could have jump started this offense, and i think that is why he went for it there. He stated that too, i actually believe him on that.

That's not on Hue, that's on Haley. Haley calls the plays now, Hue Jackson does not.

On 4th down, Haley will look at hue and he will say go for it, or kick it. Then Haley calls the play on 4th. Sometimes, the HC if there is time, will say hey what kind of play do you have - the OC will give them a play and then they make their decision on that (usually if theres a time out etc in between). But generally speaking, the playcaller is the one that calls the plays, all plays.

I get that, but again, he stated he only went for it because he wanted to JUMPSTART the offense. So he knew they were not moving the ball, and hoped this would help. He knows they were not moving the ball and this was his decision to get them to start moving.

Again, I don't think Hue Jackson last the year, and i don't think he should have been given start, but this is just how i see it.

I have heard this a lot from guys that are backing hue, and its a valid point,

but to that i argue - those had no problem getting rid of or firing Gordon, firing Carlos, etc. So how did those moves improve a team mid season?

First I wouldn't say I am backing Hue (would have fired him last year), but I'm not in the pitchfork carrying crowd like you either. Once we decided to give him this year I am all for judging him this year based upon his job performance, and the team's development.

To your point, trading Carlos opens up more opportunities for Chubb.....which in turn helps the team in their opinion. Getting rid of Gordon eliminated a bad influence from talented rookies such as Calloway. In both situations the long term benefit from developing rookies was the reason for the moves.

Which brings me back to my original point, if it is deemed that Hue (or Haley for that matter) is detrimental to the developmental process of Baker then fire him now. As I said though I haven't seen any evidence of that.

If you guys think firing Hue is going to equate to more Ws this year you are just wrong.......it will send the team downward at least historically speaking.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I don't consider myself a pitchfork carrier - I just think he should not have been given this year. I have said I was willing to see what he can do...and 7 games in - it hasn't been much IMO. in fact, I have stood up for him several times on calls like the 4th down etc. so that narrative by others that I am out with an agenda is just not true. I don't believe he is capable of running an effective team. I personally think is a good man and the players love him. But that doesn't mean he knows how to
win football games. A guy off the street could have won 4 games in three years by sheer luck.

So I ask and think about this honestly - Hue during HK we saw was like a kid in the candy store about Gordon. "The eagle has landed!" I think Dorsey got rid of him, despite Hue. JMO.

If you go to the day we got rid of Carlos - I questioned why we would trade him for a 5th? I know why I believe. You see, you could just put him behind Chubb and lower his carries. I believe Hue would not do so, so Dorsey had to trade him in order to get Chubb the carries he needs.

I think we are seeing moves of a power struggle again with the FO. Hue has had a power struggle with every GM he has worked for (in oak and with sashi) as a HC. Last year, when the power struggle was going on with Sashi. I think there is some fire to that smoke and we are seeing it these moves by Dorsey.

I also think if TT didn't get hurt, Hue would still be playing him, when its obvious to the world Baker was the best QB day 1.

I think you are seeing Dorsey make moves to get the best players on the field, because Hue doesn't know who the best players are.

Pretty sure the Rams, KC, & Vikes all had coordinator shake-ups when the HC was removed. Players too. Just too lazy to look it up, but it goes to my point. I don't know of a HC change that didn't result in other changes as well. No one has a crystal ball, so we don't know how it will turn out, it's all anybody's guess. But the team is playing hard and its very competitive, with a rookie QB. Walsh went 2-14 & 6-10 before he had a winning season. I'm not saying Hue is Walsh, but there are similarities to the situations. I'm saying next year should be the determining season as to whether he makes it as a HC. Also, I agree, Hue needs to clean up the penalties. Those are atrocious. And of course, it's JMHO.

I don't see the correlation.

Walsh went 2-14 improved to 6-10 then improved again to 13-3 and won the SB.

Hue went 1-15, actually got worse and went 0-16 and now is 2-4-1

This argument would have been applicable 2 years ago but not today

It's difficult to compare apples to apples because every situation is different. If you want a better correlation, start with Hue's team this year, his first with his rookie franchise QB, his first with decent talent, and his first with two good coords, then see where he is in three years. I'm saying crappy record this year, better next year, and much better year after. It's difficult to hold the past two years against him given the talent situation, though I know most will, because most want him gone. I'm saying that would be a mistake. Agree, disagree, everyone has their take. As I said, it's JMHO.

I'm not sure if "most" want him gone. I think there a handful of very, very vocal posters that make it seem that way.

Look through the threads and you will see the same posters trashing him over and over. That might seem like a consensus because most people keep quiet and not many want to risk the ridicule of defending him, but just talking to friends and others about the Browns..........."most" think that the Browns are improved and have a promising future.

I agree that there are only a few that want him out. I think the majority are on the fence about him and cold easily be swayed in either direction.

Yeah, that might have been an overstatement, although I wasn't referring to the board alone, because if you listen to the Cleveland media and read Twitter at all, it seems like most. But for a handful of ridiculous moments (fumbles, penalties, ref interferences), we're not even having this conversation.

I think most people want to see where we are at upon season's end and make a decision. I think there are a few in the media and on this board who are what I call the "pitchfork" crowd who just berate the guy no matter what he does.

I'm not willing to say Hue is the future at all, but I want him to get his full year this year before making any rash judgments.

Actually, that is where I am at. I know it doesn't seem that way, but I never thought it was fair to judge the guy when he had the by far the worst roster in the league.

This year, we should be able to compete. Thus far, I think we have done that. We've been close in every game but one.

I do think that the local media has it out for him. We can find evidence of that in the recent articles they have written. They have a lot of influence w/certain fans. We need some wins, but man..........we have the Steelers at their place, then KC, then Atlanta. It could get very, very ugly.

That is why I told Diam I don't think he makes past the bye. I don't agree with it, but man the schedule coming up is brutal and the sharks are circling.

Maybe Haslem shows some restraint and gives him a full year to see where the team is at upon season's end, but if we lose those three I'll be shocked if Hue doesn't get canned.....the media is already giddy waiting for it to happen.