DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Stock Market

You are correct only it will take tax time to prove it to the haters.

Except it’s not.

Allt he gains in the stock market for 2018 have been wiped out.

The market has continued to go down today. The Dems can’t repeal the tax cut because the GOP still controls the senate. The fact that you’re already trying to blame the Dems for a policy that won’t happen for atleast another 2 years, while simultaneously ignoring the gop controlled policies that aren’t working shows the only person biased and heavily Flawed is you.

Well, you and all the other conservatives who think trickle down economics and trade wars actually work.

The Santa Clause Rally is right around the corner!

Not only have the tax cuts not paid for themselves as hilariously advertised by the GOP, but our deficit is rising to unseen levels.

The gop got their one percenters wealthy and left everyone else the bill.

Look who believes in Santa Claus, and thinks he will save the day!

Look up Stock Market Santa Clause Rally and be educated instead of ....

Nope. No fun in that, would rather mock you.

The fact that he’s trying to salvage the bad news by hoping a once a year rally will save the day tells you everything you need to know about trash conservative policies at the federal level.

Well that is fine, sorta goes along with the educated part.

40 rooting for a stock rally ~ "Here comes Santa Claus, Here comes Santa Claus..."

Wall Street drops, S&P 500 confirms correction

https://www.yahoo.com/news/futures-down-oil-prices-slide-130514584--finance.html

(Reuters) - U.S. stocks closed lower in a shortened post-holiday trading session on Friday as the energy sector tumbled on continued weakness in oil prices, and the benchmark S&P 500 confirmed its second correction of 2018.

The three major U.S. indexes all fell well over 3 percent for the week, with the Dow industrials and the Nasdaq posting their biggest weekly percentage declines since March.

The S&P 500 ended about 10.2 percent down from its Sept. 20 closing record high, confirming it had entered a correction.

The S&P last entered a correction earlier this year after posting a then record high in late January, and falling more than 10 percent by early February. That correction lasted roughly seven months, until the index posted a fresh record high in late August.

On Friday, the S&P 500 energy sector <.SPNY> fell 3.3 percent, dragged down by another plunge in oil prices, amid fears of a supply glut even as major producers consider cutting output. Oil prices have plunged some 30 percent since the start of October.

Shares of oil majors Chevron and Exxon Mobil dropped 3.4 percent and 2.7 percent, respectively.

Aside from energy, declines in Apple and Amazon weighed on the S&P 500, underscoring the drop in technology and internet stocks that has marked this latest swoon in equities.

“I see this as a continuation of the market trying to come to terms with slower growth next year," said Alicia Levine, chief market strategist at BNY Mellon Investment Management in New York. "Today’s price action is part of that story."

The Dow Jones Industrial Average <.DJI> fell 178.74 points, or 0.73 percent, to 24,285.95, the S&P 500 <.SPX> lost 17.37 points, or 0.66 percent, to 2,632.56 and the Nasdaq Composite <.IXIC> dropped 33.27 points, or 0.48 percent, to 6,938.98.

Trading volume was relatively light with the session ending at 1 pm ET following the Thanksgiving Day holiday, so the day's action might carry less significance.

Volume on U.S. exchanges was about 3.4 billion shares, well below the 8.2 billion average for the full session over the last 20 trading days.

"When everyone comes back, we’ll get a clearer indication of what it might look like for the rest of the year," said John Carey, managing director and portfolio manager at Amundi Pioneer Asset Management in Boston. "Today just confirms the recent weakness due to persisting worries about the economy and the effect of higher interest rates on price-to-earnings multiples, borrowing costs and so forth."

U.S. shoppers formed long lines at store checkout counters on Black Friday to snap up deep discounts on clothing and electronics, offering evidence of stronger consumer spending at the start of retailers' make-or-break holiday season.

The S&P 500 retailing index <.SPXRT> fell 0.6 percent.

United Technologies Corp rose 2.6 percent after the company won Chinese regulatory approval to buy aircraft parts maker Rockwell Collins Inc . Rockwell shares jumped 9.2 percent.

Investors will be focusing on next week's G20 summit in Buenos Aires, where U.S. President Donald Trump and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping are expected to hold talks amid a trade dispute that has weighed on financial markets.

Declining issues outnumbered advancing ones on the NYSE by a 1.36-to-1 ratio; on Nasdaq, a 1.17-to-1 ratio favored advancers.

The S&P 500 posted 1 new 52-week highs and 19 new lows; the Nasdaq Composite recorded 15 new highs and 74 new lows.

Graphic: S&P 500 in correction territory - https://tmsnrt.rs/2PSWY3x

Graphic: S&P 500 in correction territory (live version) - https://tmsnrt.rs/2zpEr4y

Any "Santa Claus" rally depends very much on what happens the end of next week at the G20 between the US and China on trade and the Fed meeting on the 19th of Dec.

And concerning the trade war with China-China is not backing down one bit and have not changed anything and now it seems that they are trying to pry away some of our trade partners like South Korea and Japan and they may even try Mexico and Canada.
I would think that the market would bounce if there is a joint statement they we are working on trade but the tariffs are not happening on Jan 1, 2019, but if it is another Trump statement that nobody else verifies or if the tariffs jump to 25% at the first of the year, I will be even more happy i went to cash when the dow was almost 2000 points higher.

Below is a link from Financial times a couple days ago.


Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/030f9eda-ed5b-11e8-89c8-d36339d835c0

Nervous investors await China-US talks at G20 summit
Hopes for resolution or pause in trade tensions when Trump and Xi meet in Buenos Aires

If Chinese president Xi Jinping, left, and US president Donald Trump fail to agree a deal, investors are expected to stick with a defensive stance

Emma Dunkley in Hong Kong NOVEMBER 21, 2018 Print this page9
The stage is set in Buenos Aires for a performance of warm smiles and hearty handshakes between the presidents of the US and China at the G20 meeting next week.

But investors expect there will be a different dynamic playing out behind the scenes, based on months of tension over power and trade between Donald Trump and Xi Jinping.

During a year in which trade spats have become increasingly fraught, investors have suffered from rising uncertainty and a turbulent ride in global markets.

Chinese stocks have plunged 27 per cent since their peak this year in January, making China the worst-performing major equity market in 2018. The largest technology stocks in the US, meanwhile, have tumbled into a bear market with more than $1tn wiped off their value.

All eyes are now on the G20 gathering at the end of November, to see whether the trade impasse will be resolved, paused, or escalated. Combined with rising interest rates, clouds over global economic growth and political tension elsewhere, investors are awaiting the meeting with a degree of trepidation.

The US has this year announced three rounds of tariffs on China, amounting to levies on about $250bn worth of goods, while China has retaliated with tariffs on $50bn of US products and plans for a further $60bn.


Mr Trump’s 10 per cent tariff on $200bn of Chinese products is set to jump to 25 per cent in the new year, unless a deal is struck in the coming weeks.

“The meeting of the two presidents is increasingly seen as an important opportunity to break a negative spiral in financial markets,” said Andrew Milligan, head of global strategy at Aberdeen Standard Investments.

“Although full agreement or complete resolution is seen as rather unlikely on all the issues — trade, technology, intellectual property, security&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;even a temporary ceasefire — an agreement to keep talking and sort out some of the easier issues — would help calm market nerves.”

Investors are trying to see past the steady stream of accusations of predatory trade practices being unleashed by the two superpowers. On Tuesday night, the Trump administration said China had taken “further unreasonable actions in recent months” in terms of intellectual property.


Any ceasefire, along with signs of an upturn in global activity, could prompt investors to invest cash that they have sitting on the sidelines, fuelling a year-end rally.

But if the two presidents cannot agree or “even deliberately find areas of disagreement in order to give messages to their domestic audiences”, then Mr Milligan said many investors would stick with a much more defensive stance, such as holding cash. “Cash levels are above average but not very high in fund manager portfolios,” he added.

Optimism that a resolution could be struck at the G20 meeting was tempered by the recent Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit. For the first time in its three-decade history, the meeting failed to issue a joint communiqué, while Mr Xi and Mike Pence, US vice-president, clashed over trade and security.

Tai Hui, chief market strategist for Asia-Pacific at JPMorgan Asset Management, said the Apec meeting revealed significant differences between Washington and Beijing on trade issues, meaning a “material breakthrough” on tension was “highly unlikely”.


The most likely outcome of the G20, he said, was that China and Washington would maintain an open dialogue even if the leaders “agree to disagree”, which the market would receive as “a mild positive” in spite of the tariff increase set to take effect next year.

Although bankers are forecasting a range of potential scenarios at the G20 meeting and over the next few months, some think a “pause” in the trade spat is the most likely result.

Analysts at Goldman Sachs forecast just a 10 per cent probability of a comprehensive deal and a rollback of tariffs in the next few months, and expect a 40 per chance of a “pause” over this time, to allow for further discussions.

Meredith Pickett, a strategist at Morgan Stanley, and her team said that while a “constructive US-China statement or a tariff pause are rising possibilities” at the G20, she still expected further escalation before an endgame became possible.

Recommended

The balance of power
A deal between Trump and Xi will not last
She said the base case was for trade tension to escalate until substantial market or economic weakness caused China or the US to take action. “This appears to us to be what’s happened over the past few weeks,” she said, noting that the phone call between Mr Trump and Mr Xi in early November, and the move by the US to sign off on waivers for Iran oil sanctions, came after the S&P dropped by more than 10 per cent from its year-to-date highs.

But uncertainty caused by the trade impasse among other factors has spooked investors, leading them to take profits in sectors such as technology which have rocketed over the past decade.

Oliver Jones, of Capital Economics, said that technology is “among the most vulnerable” to a further escalation of the US-China trade war and is susceptible to weakness in the Chinese and US economies. Other issues have weighed on the sector of late, including concern over demand for Apple’s iPhones, and an investigation by Chinese authorities into memory chipmakers.

“We are sticking to our view that the equities of IT firms will be among the worst performers as stock markets around the world fall much further between now and the end of next year,” he added.

The hidden part in the "customer always pays tariffs/fees/taxes" argument : sometimes the customer says no. This desire to say no and go elsewhere on these tariffs is indeed hurting China but also hurting us. If China decides to find other trade partners we may lock in our losses while China bounces back in a few short years.

like soybeans. its quite possible the US farmers are gonna take a permanent loss on that trade aspect.

Swish, the soybeans are just crushed. Little did the farmers know when they planted them that they would either plow them in the ground or pay for storage for a product that nobody will buy.

What is next, i already saw a couple stories on how it could affect Black Friday next year and some of the other items that are going to be hit like washing machines, dryers, LED lights, Christmas lights, etc, etc,.

we will see for sure what the overall impact is.

commodities have absolutely gone up, and its having an effect on the car industry, for example. the price of commodities means it cost more to manufacture cars, causing a huge spike in the used car aspect of the industry.

now, some will make the argument that buying used is already ideal anyway, but people have to remember that used cars sales aren't counted in the GDP, along with other aspects that negatively affect the market.

I don't think this is something to really worry about yet. The market always does this.. Let it ride.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/general-motors-lay-off-15-percent-workers-shut/story?id=59419725

General Motors to lay off 15 percent of workers, shutter 5 plants in North America
By SOO YOUN Nov 26, 2018, 12:50 PM ET

PHOTO: The General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Nov. 26, 2018.Carlos Osorio/Reuters
COMING UPNews headlines today: Nov. 26, 2018
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General Motors is laying off 15 percent of its salaried workers and shuttering five plants in North America, the Detroit automaker announced on Monday.

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Add General Motors as an interest to stay up to date on the latest General Motors news, video, and analysis from ABC News.
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The company said it was "transforming its global workforce to ensure it has the right skill sets for today and the future, while driving efficiencies through the utilization of best-in-class tools."

PHOTO: The General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Nov. 26, 2018.Carlos Osorio/Reuters
The General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Nov. 26, 2018.
(MORE: The Trump Economy: How steelworkers view the midterm elections)
"The actions we are taking today continue our transformation to be highly agile, resilient and profitable, while giving us the flexibility to invest in the future,” GM Chair and CEO Mary Barra said. “We recognize the need to stay in front of changing market conditions and customer preferences to position our company for long-term success."

PHOTO: The General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Nov. 26, 2018.Carlos Osorio/Reuters
The General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Nov. 26, 2018.
(MORE: The Trump Economy: Why new-car prices are approaching record highs)
GM has shifted its focus on electric, ride-sharing and autonomous vehicles while eliminating poor-selling models. Industry insiders and Wall Street have praised the move.

The company "is trying to get ahead of a potential crisis by making cuts now," Michelle Krebs, executive analyst at Autotrader, said, noting that GM is reacting to a weaker market in China and weaker demand in North America, its two biggest markets.

"GM is actually a tad late to adjusting its product line and production capacity to the dramatic car to utility shift. Ford and Fiat Chrysler already revealed their plans to largely abandon traditional cars," Krebs added.

The three assembly plants that will close are: Oshawa Assembly in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly in Detroit, and Lordstown Assembly in Warren, Ohio.

The Detroit plant makes the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse and Cadillac CT6. The Ohio plant makes the Chevy Cruze. The closures jeopardize the production of those models.

"The sales of all those cars are in decline. They need heavy incentives to sell and a lot of those sales go to fleet or rental agencies," Edmunds analyst Ivan Drury told ABC News. "They have heavy competition in those segments -- Cruze is up against Civics and Corollas and they know they’re not winning there."

He added, "The only shock is that a year ago they said they were going to keep all their cars lines."

The closures were opposed by organized labor.

Unifor, Canada's largest union, issued a statement calling on General Motors Canada to keep the plant open past December 2019.

“Oshawa Assembly is GM’s most decorated plant with a highly skilled, committed workforce,” said Unifor National President Jerry Dias. “Additionally, the USMCA provides the Canadian auto industry with firm footing so walking away after a hundred year history of manufacturing makes no sense.”

“Unifor does not accept the closure of the plant as a foregone conclusion,” said Dias.

PHOTO: General Motors workers leave the Oshawa General Motors plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Nov. 26, 2018.Lars Hagberg/AFP/Getty Images
General Motors workers leave the Oshawa General Motors plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Nov. 26, 2018.
(MORE: US-Canada trade deal may mean higher car prices)
The cuts were lauded as a step toward a more nimble future for the automaker but others expressed concern about a collective loss of industry talent.

"It comes at a tremendous cost to people and the communities which depend upon GM plants for economic sustainability. While this may be a market necessity, I am concerned about the brain drain: a loss of valuable legacy knowledge and experience as long-term GM employees are let go," according to Kelley Blue Book's Rebecca Lindland.

GM stock was trading 5.6 percent higher midday on the news at $37.94 a share.

ABC News’ Jeffrey Cook contributed to this report.

one word...

ZOOMING!!!

zooming downward?

Only if you're standing on your head and speaking out you're arse!

Glad we (the taxpayers) lost some $11.2 billion bailing them out so we could save those jobs. Glad the workforce gave major concessions to keep GM alive.

No worries, Trump fired or replaced those responsible.

Let’s not forget that they, along with every other big business, recently got a corporate tax rate cut...you know...so they could reinvest in the company and create more jobs...per the republican trickle-down economic theory.

Well that’s turning out about how I thought it would. .

also, those manufacturers paid that money back already, so i dunno if its fair to still hang that over their heads for the bailouts.

when will rural farmers pay back the bailouts they received?

probably never.

They absolutely did not pay it back. In GM's case, the government got stock, and it never reached the price level necessary to repay the taxpayers ..... and thus the $11.2 billion loss.

I also am not blaming one party. Both are complicit in funneling money and benefits to major industries, often in order to receive benefits back themselves. They all do it.

I don't blame GM, Trump or anybody else. We created this system that puts profit before people over the last 40 years. Now we get the unintended consequences. Corps must always drive bigger profits, cut losses, and innovate.

U.S. Declares Bank and Auto Bailouts Over, and Profitable

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/20/busin...all-street.html

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670

this was back in 2014. obviously you can choose to play with numbers all you like, but the bailout did its job. the companies paid back their loans.

they are certainly fairing a lot better than the farmers, the part of my post you hilariously decided to not respond to.

i honestly don't care, but YTown loves to play games with what policies he doesnt support, and the same policies he does depending on who is running it.

the same corporate bribes he's upset about with the car industry are the same bribes he was out here praising trump and pence over.

Bush and Obama did the right thing. to an extend, Trump and pence at least had the right intentions. But atleats Bush and Obama has stipulations on what those companies did business-wise, while trump is giving people free money without demanding anything in return.

This is from NBC news ... you know, that far right lunatic news service.

I am a free market kind of guy. I think that government should create an environment for business and industry to succeed ..... and them let them do so. I will remind you that Bush started this bailout garbage, and I said I hated it them. (you can go back and look for yourself. I believe posts go back that far)

Oops! GM Bailout Cost Taxpayers Almost $1B More Than Estimated
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/o...stimated-n93816

The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors, almost $1 billion more than the $10.3 billion the Treasury Department estimated when it sold its remaining GM shares in December, according to a government report released on Wednesday.

The $11.2 billion loss includes a write-off in March of the government's remaining $826 million investment in "old" GM, the quarterly report by a Treasury watchdog said.

"while trump is giving people free money without demanding anything in return."

As long as you line up to kiss the ring of the king.

you pretty much told me you didn't bother reading any of my links, and just read to respond, instead of reading to understand.

for example, this part in your link, ya know which i actually read unlike you:

Treasury whittled down its GM stake through a series of stock sales starting in November 2010, with the remaining shares sold on December 9, 2013. At the time of the December sale, Treasury put the total loss at $10.3 billion but said it did not expect any significant proceeds from its remaining $826 million investment in "old" GM, the report by the Office of the Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program said.

_____

was explained in the 2nd link i posted:

The Obama administration used the take-over to set new auto efficiency standards. That improved air quality and forced U.S. automakers to be more competitive against Japanese and German firms.

Chrysler entered bankruptcy on April 3, 2009. GM followed on June 1. By the end of July, they emerged from bankruptcy reorganization. GM became two separate companies and spun off GMAC into Allied Financial. Chrysler became a brand owned mostly by Fiat. The Treasury Department began selling off its ownership of GM in 2010. Chrysler paid off the last of its loans by 2011.

On December 18, 2014, the Treasury Department ended the bailout. That's when it sold its last remaining shares of Ally Financial, formerly known as General Motors Acceptance Corporation. It had bought them for $17.2 billion to infuse cash into the failing GM subsidiary. The Treasury Department sold the shares for $19.6 billion, making a $2.4 billion profit for taxpayers.

_________

and this is why when you whine about posting in this section of the board, i laugh. i always show you and others the cortoursey of actually reading what you post, but you just flat out demostrated you won't do the same. and yet we're the toxic ones, right?

anyway, still flat out deciding not to respond to the farmer aspect, i see. its fine. continue doing whatever it is you're doing.

it just sucks. trump gives all these corporations who already paid nowhere near their tax rates a massive tax cut, and didn't even demand some sort of performance measure.

he then gets into a trade war, a war nobody wins, and now the price of common commodities go up.

im guessing to conservatives like YTown, the answer is obviously more tax cuts.

From your 1st likk:

Most of that came from General Motors, which paid back about $39 billion of the $49.5 billion invested.

We lost money on the GM bailout. That $10.5 billion was only the preliminary cost. The overall bailout made money. The GM bailout lost a lot.

I also hated that there was no real initial oversight over how, and to who, the money went. The initial bailout was mainly to buy back bad debt/mortgages, and help the US automakers. Investment banks received a huge amount of the initial payouts. Failing investment banks were propped up. They should have been allowed to fail. At least $140 billion came out of the market, and into bonds. There would have been a lot of cash available to buy up some of the manufacturers, and if the government had to help with some of the worst mortgages, (which, in many cases, they were already bound to do through HUD, FHA, and Fannie Mae) Help for homeowners would have been preferable to me.

That's my $0.02 worth. I've said my piece. I am not going to argue, I just stated my piece.

Although the GM in my name never stood for General Motors. I am embarrassment, and ashamed that folks may think it does. I am tempted to buy foreign cars next time since GM only cares about their own pockets.

bro do you know how many "foreign" cars are built here in America?

you could buy a BMW X3, and its more american made that half the GM/ford fleet. you're correct, its embarrassing.

I have known all of that for YEARS. Ford use to brag about their Crown Vic being american LOL. It was ten times more foreign than A Honda.

I saw an article this morning where the CEO of GM had 2 or 3 comments about the tariffs and the cost of the tariffs-That it has already cost 1 billion in commodity cost and they don't see an end to that.

Also, there is supposed to be an announcement later this week from Ford also about massive job cuts coming. Morgan Stanley is estimating that about 12% of its workforce or 24,000 will be laid off. Ford also states that they have incurred over 1 billion additional in cost because of tariffs already

Huge difference tho..foreign cars are engineered for performance and longevity and American cars are engineered to be obsolete and rust out in a few years.

If this were the 1980's we could agree on this.