DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns fire Hue Jackson Part Two

You answered your own question. He had him passing 30 times a game

JC

I've been quite busy lately so this is my first post on the matter, so I apologize if I cover a lot that has been covered or it seems a reaction out of place.

I'm ambivalent towards the firing of Hue Jackson.

His record is indefensible. As much as I defended Jackson this year, it was purely for the sake of continuity. He has the worst record of all time, and that isn't something to blame exclusively on the roster, no matter how much that roster contributed to winning. These were limitations that Jackson was unable to overcome, but it is a limitation that coaches consistently overcome.

I like Hue, but he certainly wasn't a perfect coach. He wasn't a great coach. I can't even say if he was good or not. I think he's an excellent mentor, I think the players love him, but I don't think he instilled a killer instinct and I certainly think he needs a complete roster to get the most out of it.

With that said, I hate firings. There is a reason we have a list of "I can't believe we let that player go!" mind-bending madness. We can pretend it will not, but that list will grow. A new coach will want his own players, and we will lose talent as a result.

I also cannot fathom how our rookie QB and rookie RB have now lost their offensive minded head coach and OC in place of a running backs coach who has never called a game and will be running an offense that isn't his own. That, to me, seems bizarre. I would have rather kept one of Haley or Jackson for the remainder of the season. I feel firing one would have sent a very loud message without handcuffing our team to inexperience and uncertainty.

But, it was time. The team, for all their charms, wasn't sufficiently progressing. The start of the season was very promising, the last four games have been a clear regression.

I worry about coaching candidates. Everyone is pointing to the likes of Sean McVay, but the candidates out there don't exactly have me salivating. This will only be worse unless the existing talent can overcome what is going to be a painful season and a behind-the-rest offseason.

I wish I could be one way or another. To be honest, it's just sad. A here-we-go-again kind of moment.

bdu, I am not saying it does not happen, but I have never understood why a new coach would dump talent just because they are not his picks. Now I can see that some players might not fit a new coach’s system and moving them might make sense. The d linemen for a 4/3 are a different type than for a 3/4. etc. but for a new coach to get rid of talented players because he did not pick them is dumb and seems to me, self defeating.

in that vein, I do not know how likely it is to happen but I hope our coaching change does not bring radical new o and d systems. Probably a dream but I can hope.

I dont think they do it on purpose ... dump guys that they didnt aquire ...

I think it goes more to the fact that they “picked” there guy for a reason so i think there’s a natural pre-disposition built into that ...

They would not have chose there guy if there wasn’t sumptin about him they liked ... hence there guys wins most of the time when it comes to a decision between “my guy” and the “holdover”

.... the only opart of the hue firing that matters at this point ...

John Harbaugh - C - Ravens

According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, the Ravens haven't ruled out a midseason coaching change
.
Source: NFL.com

NO CLUE why they’d do this ... he’s not there problem ... it they did ... HE’D SHOOT UP TO #1 - 5 on my list ...

PLEASE DO ... mid season would work out PERFECTLY FOR US ... NO COMP now ..

GO STILERS ... yuck ... i need to go shower now .. *LOL* ..

[quoteGO STILERS ... yuck ... i need to go shower now .. *LOL* ..][/quote]

Blasphemy I say..LOL

We could do a lot worse than John Harbaugh as coach. I've always wondered if he was OK with signing Flacco to that ridiculous contract.

J/C

I was watching some clips on YouTube and seen an interview with TJ Houshmanzadeh discussing Hue Jacksons firing that was interesting. The cliffs notes version:

- Said Hue isn't lying, he told TJ, who has been friends with Hue since 2003, that Hue wanted Wentz and last year Watson.

- Said Hue was retained BECAUSE of those facts and was assured by Truck Stop Jimmy that the analytics guys failed and that had no bearing on Hue or his job.

That makes the firing even more idiotic IMO. Jimmy needs to seriously back off and go away for awhile and let Dorsey handle business.

Yeah, Hue's close friends all point out that he wanted every pro-bowler drafted during his time with Cleveland.

The Wentz card seems foolish, in my opinion.

Hue's so-called best friend, Mike Silver, wrote several features on Hue Jackson during the drafts.

Silver outright stated that Jackson felt #2 was much too high to draft Wentz (September, 2016) while accompanied a detailed feature article in which it was "Goff or bust" for Jackson. (August, 2016)

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...uilding-project

Jackson also outright said that Wentz wasn't a good fit for the Browns (September, 2016).

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/09/browns_hue_jackson_says_carson.html

There has been plenty that suggested, at the time, that Jackson just didn't really want Wentz.

https://sports.yahoo.com/hue-jackson-say...-145139380.html

It's easy to say that now. For Jackson and his friends. At the time, it was a completely different tune.

I wish we would have kept Haley, at the very least to have some continuity on offense in the middle of the season.

Figure either one of two things: the petty infighting was actually much worse than we realize or the front office just made a stupid mistake. Let's hope it's the former.

Yep. The more this B.S and attempt by Hue to weasel out of ownership of what he did here in Cleveland through his own interviews and statements and through choreographed stories to the media through friends goes on the more it is understandable the locker room seems to happy to be rid of him. smh.

I honestly think Hue has done more harm to his reputation and the image of him as a leader of men in the short time since he was fired than he did by accumulating his 3-36-1 record.

Personally, I would have kept Hue.

1. The staff is Hue's staff. Having Haley working above Hue's staff could have led to greater issues.

2. Jackson certainly had a point - the roster this year is much better than his roster last year. I don't see that as an excuse. I think it's an objective truth. I would have liked to have seen Hue get his chances this year calling the plays.

3. I think firing the OC sends a strong message without a massive change. This is particularly true with the infighting - while the head coach needs to command enough respect that his OC isn't infighting, it's gross for Haley to be going rogue on the playcalls and bickering with his superior. That shows no respect for the organization.

4. Sends the message to future HC candidates that they'll be looked after and given ample opportunity to get this team to a point of improvement. I want to impress head coaching candidates, not co-ordinators.

But, like I've said, I don't hate the change. I understand why it was done. I'm just worried it dooms the staff and players. Jackson, at least, could have been an experienced presence and a long-term scapegoat.

It may also have exposed a glaring weakness of Hue's and provide evidence of extremely poor judgement on his part. My initial reaction to Hue's post Tampa comments about getting more involved in the play calling and reminding everyone he's the HC was something along the lines of "if you have too keep telling people how good/important/etc you are, you probably aren't what you think". That he (was) the HC was self evident. The fact he felt the need to have to tell people that demonstrated to me a lack of confidence in himself or his position for whatever reasons.

Further, if we take Hue at his word about the hiring of Haley, it doesn't look good when Hue can't control or garner the respect of the people HE chose.

This doesn't mean Haley is absolved of whatever his contribution (or lack of) was.

Hue needed to be more than a leader of players. He needed to be a leader within the organization. I don't think he's demonstrated that he can do that. He seems to have to go to Daddy Haslam too much and can't seem to be the driving force in any collaborative effort (couldn't with Haley, couldn't with Sashi). Either he lacks that skill set, his own ego gets in the way, or he's a pushover. None of which are traits you want in your HC.

j/c....

Dysfunction in Cleveland: Hue Jackson’s Paranoid Final Days and Baker Mayfield’s Resilience

By ROBERT KLEMKO November 06, 2018

Baker Mayfield earned the respect of the locker room long ago, but this was icing on the cake. Two weeks ago in Tampa Bay, the rookie quarterback sprinted out of the pocket on second-and-26 for a 35-yard gain, with Bucs safety Jordan Whitehead delivering a helmet-to-helmet blow as Mayfield slid late into contact. The Browns QB immediately bounced up and confronted Whitehead.

“YEAH MOTHER-----!”

Whitehead, who seemed stunned, rocked back on his heels after the confrontation. Mayfield’s teammates, reviewing the film on tablets back home that night and in position meeting rooms the next morning, were thrilled with their quarterback.

“Baker’s a dog,” says Browns defensive lineman Devaroe Lawrence, issuing one of highest compliments you can earn in an NFL locker room. “There are certain things you can’t teach dogs. There’s a whole bunch of savages in here, but we got one in a quarterback. He looked at him and told him, Yeah mother-----. Everyone could read those lips.”

“When you see a quarterback go into battle like that and ready to chirp, you want to get in there and help him out,” says offensive lineman Joel Bitonio, one of the longest-tenured Browns, drafted in 2014. “Having that guy lead your team is something special.”

Mayfield’s resiliency in moments large and small is one of the biggest reasons he’s in Cleveland. According to people familiar with general manager John Dorsey’s thinking during the scouting process, it was Mayfield’s handling of adversity—specifically, walking on at Oklahoma and fighting long odds to win the starting job, and eventually, the Heisman—that most attracted the GM to the 6’ 1” quarterback. Dorsey was searching for the young man who could not only satisfy the on-field requirements of the modern NFL quarterback, but also weather a situation like the one the Browns find themselves in now: head coach and offensive coordinator dismissed at the halfway point of the regular season. Said a league source close to Dorsey: “He wanted someone who could put up with the dysfunction.”

Mayfield’s rookie season has already had plenty of it. The internal rift among the Browns staff went public last Monday, with Dorsey and team owner Jimmy Haslam announcing the firing of both head coach Hue Jackson and offensive coordinator Todd Haley, the assistant coach brought in to take play-calling duties and offensive responsibilities away from Jackson. The head coach ceded autonomy over the offense after calling plays for two seasons, during which Cleveland went 1–31 overall, a benchmark for modern football futility.

Gregg Williams, promoted from his defensive coordinator post to interim head coach, has been deliberately pushing a forward-looking message, both in public and private, declining to answer questions about Jackson or Haley. Jackson, meanwhile, has done two interviews—one with Cleveland.com and another with ESPN’s First Take—parsing out blame for his failed run in Cleveland among current and former Browns employees, and expressing regret that he ever gave up his offensive responsibilities.

He’s been met with silence from former colleagues, but here’s what Browns leadership won’t publicly acknowledge as they push on through what appears to be another lost season:

Jackson, who had a league-wide reputation as a relentless self-promoter when he took the Browns’ head-coaching job in 2016, removed himself entirely from offensive install sessions in the spring and summer. Then, in the weeks leading up to his firing, Jackson inserted himself back into offensive meetings. The disconnect created by Jackson's inferior knowledge of Haley’s offense, and the players’ unfamiliarity with Jackson’s scheme, frustrated players and coaches alike, according to five sources within the organization. Jackson was unreachable by phone and did not respond to a request for comment made through his agent. The Browns, likewise, declined to comment on the sourced material in this story.

Jackson, wary of his own slipping stature, paid close attention to Haley’s press conferences in the final weeks of his two-and-a-half year run, sequestering himself in his office to watch the Q&As live, then verbally needling the coach if the message was not in lockstep with his own. Haley believed Jackson was in search of a greater degree of credit for his contributions to the team’s (relative) success throughout a 2-4-1 start to this season, according to four team sources.

Jackson’s performance on the HBO/NFL Films documentary series Hard Knocks was seen by some in the building as just that—performance—with Jackson’s internal critics among coaches and players noting his abrasive, hard-charging behavior in press conferences and team settings when cameras were present, in contrast with his delicate handling of players in private. “Sometimes it was like Jekyll and Hyde,” says one player.

That’s not to say Jackson lacked allies. A number of players this week expressed appreciation for his run in Cleveland and admiration for his coaching and leadership. “We knew with the way everything was going, something crazy was going to happen,” says fifth-year linebacker Christian Kirksey. “It’s tricky because I have a deep respect and a good relationship with Hue, but I can't think about that right now. We’ve got to keep it moving.”

One former player, who was with the team in 2016 and ’17, echoed the sentiments of several current players who believe Jackson was a good coach who didn’t do enough to change the culture in Cleveland. “I liked Hue as a guy,” the player says. “He came into a sh---y situation from the jump, and he didn’t rattle things enough to switch the program around.”

In a team meeting with players the day Jackson and Haley were dismissed, Dorsey and Haslam stressed that there would be no discussion about the merits of the moves, and only a renewed dedication to the present and the opponent at hand, the 7-1 Kansas City Chiefs. Williams was characteristically blunt in his assessment of the team in his introductory press conference as head coach. “When it is more important to them than it is to me and you,” Williams said of the players, “look out.”

Players quietly disagreed that passion or commitment was at issue: “Not anymore, if it was,” says defensive lineman Larry Ogunjobi. “Now, people are starting to see the difference if we do care. When we do have attention to detail.”

“Attention to detail” would take on new meaning under Williams in his first week as interim head coach. In advance of the Chiefs visit, he stressed small improvements in practice, from the critical to the seemingly mundane.

“Right off the bat he told us he was going to big on discipline,” says wide receiver Breshad Perriman. “You could tell there were about to be some changes. I feel like he was really intentional about certain things. No drops. Executing your assignments. Even things like where you stand on the practice field when you’re not in a play.”

Says Ogunjobi: “The little problems eventually become big problems. He’s big on that. Little things are the things that get you beat, and we’ve had enough of that. Everybody’s got to be accountable. We’re not kids.”

Across the organization this week, there was little wonder how Mayfield would respond to the coaching change. He gave no rousing speeches, and did nothing outside of the ordinary. He followed the script demonstrated by Tyrod Taylor, the former Bills and Ravens quarterback who started the first three games of the season and has been a willing mentor to Mayfield since suffering a concussion and watching the rookie take his spot at the top of the depth chart. “In times like this, the focus goes to the quarterback,” Taylor says. “He can influence a whole locker room just by being that steady presence.”

In the eyes of many fans looking in from outside the walls of the Browns’ complex in Berea, the week took on an all-too-familiar feel. Williams is the sixth Browns head coach since 2010, and barring a dramatic turnaround this season he’s unlikely to survive in that role. Yet he can expect to enjoy a longer honeymoon than most interim Browns coaches, considering Jackson’s extreme unpopularity among the radio call-in crowd, says longtime Browns reporter Tony Grossi. The ESPN radio host and columnist considers Jackson the least popular coach in his 61 years. “Even among people who felt this was inevitable, nobody expected it to blow up this fast,” Grossi says. “We thought Baker would change that, because he’s not Cody Kessler. And then Jackson gets fired, and to a lot of people it felt like same old Browns.”

Still, it’s Mayfield that gives many—including Grossi—hope for the cycle coming to an end. Grossi was an early detractor of Mayfield before the Browns drafted him, comparing him to former Browns first-rounder-turned-NFL-burnout Johnny Manziel. (While I was reporting a pre-draft profile series on Mayfield, Grossi and I sparred on his radio show over the comparison.) He has since admitted his judgment was made in haste. “If he can convince me,” Grossi says with a smile, “he can convince anybody.

“There was skepticism about size and the Johnny thing, but he had such an impact so quickly. Being around training camp I saw that he was doing and saying the right things. I thought the support system they put around him was brilliant, with Tyrod and Drew Stanton. Then he went in and lit it up. This city is so hungry for that kind of transcendent quarterback, we’re easy pickings.”


Well before Mayfield arrived, for as long as anyone can remember, stadium-adjacent bars have enjoyed standing-room only crowds on Sundays when the Browns are home. A football city’s passion, handed down by witnesses of those NFL championship teams of a bygone era, has shown no signs of fading.

“They’ve been hearing about how special it is when they win,” Grossi says, “and they’re just hoping to see that. But there’s absolutely a risk of that good will running out. People are dying. The Browns are on the clock.”

If the turnaround is nigh, it didn’t begin Sunday afternoon. While the Browns offense looked competent against a middling Chiefs defense, Williams—in his dual-role as defensive playcaller and head coach—had no answer for a Chiefs offense threatening to set a regular-season record for points scored. Kansas City cruised to a 37-21 victory behind a season-high 8.6 yards per play.

Assembled on the opposite sideline was as clear a vision for what the Browns could one day become. After all, Dorsey was the architect who assembled most of the Chiefs’ core of offensive stars, drafting Mahomes, running back Kareem Hunt, wide receiver Tyreek Hill and tight end Travis Kelce during his four-year run as general manager in K.C. Cleveland brass believes they have the beginnings of something similar, with Mayfield, Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb and a handful of young contributors on both sides of the ball.

“When you talk to guys like [retired offensive lineman] Joe Thomas and hear about all the times this has happened, I think what’s different from past years, is that there is a very good core here,” says Kevin Zeitler, the former Bengals guard in his second season with the Browns. “There’s a lot of talent. Our record is what it is, but there’s a lot more hope here this year and a lot more fight.”

Over the next several weeks, attention will turn to likely candidates for the Browns head job, though it is unclear to what degree Dorsey will influence the decision. According to two sources with knowledge of former general manager Sashi Brown’s tenure, the choice of Jackson was not unanimous. Haslam was Jackson’s man, while Sean McDermott and Matt Patricia had support from those running football operations. Several members of that staff, including an analytics department led by Paul DePodesta, remains in Berea, reporting directly to Haslam—notably, not Dorsey. Haslam, who directed both the Jackson hire and the drafting of Manziel, has given Dorsey no assurances he’ll go with the new GM’s recommendation, according to the two league sources.

Regardless, the eventual head coach will have demonstrated to both Dorsey and Haslam an in-depth plan for Mayfield, who was developed in the same Air Raid offensive coaching tree as Mahomes. The Chiefs QB is thriving in an offense utilizing many of the spread concepts both Mayfield and Mahomes found success with in college. One of Jackson’s criticisms of Haley’s offense, revealed in interviews this week, was that it did not include enough elements of Mayfield’s offense at Oklahoma, unlike Andy Reid's offense in Kansas City—a charge that riled some in Berea. Two team sources believe part of Jackson’s motivation for absolving himself of offensive responsibilities and removing himself from the install in the offseason was to gather ammunition against Haley if the scheme failed, to be used in preservation of his job or in media interviews after his firing.

It's a safe bet that whomever replaces Williams as head coach, or perhaps Freddie Kitchens as offensive coordinator, will be well-versed in either the Chiefs offense or the college spread game.

But that’s a discussion for another week. Here and now, in this locker room, one thing matters most. It’s what sets this Browns team apart from all the others that saw head coaches fired in midseason. Bitonio, now in his fifth season, guesses he’s watched 10 to 15 quarterbacks take starter’s snaps during his time here—he can’t pinpoint exactly how many (it’s 11). He’s had nice things to say about all of them with a recorder in his face. But this time around is different.

“We talk about all the time—this is the year—but you really feel that with a guy like Baker we have something special we can build around,” Bitonio says. “In this division our fans had to watch Ben and Andy and Joe come in here every year. Good, consistent quarterbacks. Well, now we’ve got our guy. Time to protect him and let him lead.”

MMQB Article

On this board, many people fell for the Hard Knocks award-winning "performance" of Hue.

Some pretty damning stuff in there, both about Hue and Haslam.

The more I read how this went down the more I'm absolutely sure Haslam needs to have ZERO say on the football side and rely on Dorsey, or sell the team

Yes - pretty damning but then who is Robert Klemo and how well regarded/trusted is his reporting? I tend to take most things with a pinch of salt.

I don't think he came across as hard-charging at all. Focused, yes. stern/serious, yup.

Especially when standing next to Williams and/or Haley, hard-charging is probably the last adjective I'd use for Hue.

My first thought was that we've graduated from "sources" to "multiple sources" to "x many sources". The flip side is that I don't want to get into the habit of dismissing stories out of hand. His points are at least somewhat believable.

Klemko is a very respected writer that writes for the MMQB. This is not some random online blog. He also wrote like a seven part series on Baker Mayfield throughout the off-season, so its not too hard to make educated guesses as to who his source is on some of this stuff.

MMQB - that's where I recognize the name. (I should have not been so lazy and googled huh?) ... I'd say the chances are better than not that this basis and sentiment behind this story s rooted in truth. Peter King isn't part of MMQB any more - but he and the reporters we're normally dead nuts on with any story.

I don't know, but this could be the reason why our offense tanked the last few weeks. Not because Hue Jackson doesn't know about offense (he does), but because there seems like there was a major disconnect inside the coaching staff.



I totally understand confronting someone for sending mixed messages. That is not good leadership on Haley's part. Can you imagine Bill Belichick watching his underlings press conferences live worrying about what they will say though?



The real problem.

J/c ...

For those questioning Tyrod’s roll with Bake ...



PURE CLASS ... this dude doesn’t have ice in his veins he has CLASS ...

I wondered how he handled his benching last year for peterman so classy ... well I think I just learned WHY he did it ... EXAMPLE ... TEAM GUY ...

CLASS .. PURE CLASS this dude is ...

I’d LOVE to have a half hour with this dude ... would i ever ...

So............Baker is leaking stuff to the press and is throwing his coaches under the bus and you are all cool w/that?

I think it is very presumptuous of you and cfrs to make that leap that Baker is the source.

I think there are a lot of presumptions being bandied about on this hateful thread and I don't recall you calling any of the other presumptions out.

If you did, I apologize. If you didn't, your not playing fair.

Classic Hue.

My wife told me he is a weak man when she watched Hard Knocks. I trust her opinion. She has no bias one way or the other towards the guy.



I agree with her....Hue is/was out for Hue. We are way better off without that guy anywhere around our team, and that's not even taking in to account his record as our head coach.

Did you copy and paste this reply from all the other posts where you shared this same story?

Goodness. Everyone on this board knows you didn't have confidence in Hue's ability to right the ship.

And he brags about calling Hue weak after watching an episode in which Hue found out his mother died and was on the field coaching his butt off an hour later.

Yeah, that's weak.

We have some very unsavory posters on this board.

Just connecting some very obvious dots.

Obvious is not the strong suit of many... 1-15, 1-31 ..., 3 wins in 40 games and still isn't obvious enough.

J/C

Where were all these defenders when there were hateful threads about Sashi?

The double standard is pretty evident.

This is just more proof that Sashi wasn't the issue and that it's been Hue all along.

J/C

Can we keep this thread going for another few weeks? I think it does a lot of lips still quivering over the firing of the worst coach in nfl.

I love how some think that going on show after show and giving interviews within 12 hours to explain "the reason" you got fired is not something a weak person would do. 1-31, pretty much the reason you got fired. No need "set the record". Hue is more a politician that a coach.

I think that's more Hue being about Hue. Most people would put their family above themselves in that situation. Hue put hue above his family in that situation. I reckon if there were not cameras there, he would have left.

Exactly. It isn't about the passing of Hue's mother as some want to paint it.

Different people would handle the passing of their mother differently and it's not fair to judge them for how they react in that situation.

As far as Hue the head coach-- it was time to move on. I don't see the use to keep talking about it for weeks, but if others want to, more power to them. I'm not a fan of some of the revisionist history that has come out of his camp this week though.

j/c:

1-31 doesn't feel the need to meet with Lincoln Riley? Lovely.

On par with Ray Farmer not needing to attend Pro Days.

Nothing quite like a Haslam led organization.

To be fair, he wasn’t the offensive coordinator. Hopefully Haley went and met with Riley. If neither did that is an epic failure. If we didn’t meet with Riley, then we didn’t even come close to putting our #1 in the best position to succeed. Meeting with Riley is than just installing plays, it’s figuring out concepts, what the QB does/doesn’t do well, etc.

That does sound like a pretty spectacular failure, especially considering:

- At least 28 NFL teams asked Lincoln Riley about his offense this year.

- Baker Mayfield was the #1 overall pick and worked closely with Lincoln Riley the last 3 years.

- Hue Jackson was the 'CEO of the coaching staff' and didn't have a whole lot else to do.