DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage...heading in the right direction?

Oooh finally

Mate you dissed from the 4th round onwards then supplied like 90% of Bengal 4th rnd contributors (which admittedly is superior) Tell me about the Bengals picks after the 4th round seeing as you came down so hard on Dunn, Hoffman and the rest of the 7th rnd scrubs...how are your wonder picks from the 6th and 7th panning out?

Riddler you know as well as I do most 6th and 7th RD picks do not develop into starters and good starters at that. You missed my point..Savage waited till RD 7 to a draft a offensive lineman.....once in awhile you can find diamond in the rough(Daven Holly,Bo Scaife,Noah Herron)
but you want to know who the Bengals have selected in the late RDS..

2006 Reggie McNeal..made the team as a WR/QB......we are loaded at WR,so he's not going
Ethan Kilmer is the Bengals best special teams player now that Tab Perry is out.
He came into the Saints game in the 4th quarter and returned a INT 54 yards to seal a victory.

2005..Johnathon Fanene...played 1 game in 2005.....he made a impact abeit it was only 2 plays.....against the Steelers he forced Ben Rothlisberger into throwing a INT and drilled Willie Parker for a 4 yard loss...then he got hurt.
Tab Perry..you know about him.

2004..Casey Bramlett....he was a scout team qb.."yawn"
Greg Brooks..ooft injuried special teamer..

see Riddler,like it or not..the Bengals are getting production from all draft RDS.

Whats your point? Go gloat on a Bungal forum.. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm not gloating,just stating the truth....Phil Savage has neglected the offensive line when it comes to the draft....he's brought in free agent lineman that are getting beat week in week out off the ball on both sides of the ball...
How many of the Browns current offensive lineman can you consider "dominant"
you explain to me why the Browns cannot control the trenches?

[color:"gold"]Just clicking...

A few facts concerning draft philosophies of our opponents in our division...

Cincinnati...
RT..Willie Anderson, #71-T Drafted: 1996 - Rd 1 (10th overall) by the Bengals
RG..Stacy Andrews, #79-G Drafted: 2004 - Rd 4 (123rd overall) by the Bengals
C..Eric Ghiaciuc, #53-C Drafted: 2005 - Rd 4 (119th overall) by the Bengals
LG..Eric Steinbach, #65-G Drafted: 2003 - Rd 2 (33rd overall) by the Bengals
LT..Andrew Whitworth, #77-G Drafted: 2006 - Rd 2 (55th overall) by the Bengals
LT..Levi Jones, #76-T Drafted: 2002 - Rd 1 (10th overall) by the Bengals

It is true that Cinci has used 4th round picks to help their offensive line but mixed in with 1st and 2nd round picks.

And what have the Browns invested in draft picks to build our current Offensive line?
...answer...One 4th round pick last season.

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Just to be fair since you go back to 96 with the Bengals, we have also drafted O-line....Faine was a 1st rounder .


But I do agree with your point that we have neglected the line.

I don't see any real percentage in not spending a first day pick on both lines at least every couple of years.

You have to figure that most guys only stay with a team for 4-5 years tops, so with a turnover like that, you need to keep a few prospects stocked to fill the revolving door.

[color:"gold"]Peen...yep, that's the point I'm trying to make...a constant draft philosophy dedicated to football basics...the game is won or lost in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

The "best" way to replenish the needs in the trenches is formulate a draft strategy that favors and that addresses those needs every year, on day one.

Savage can talk about his "best player available" draft philosophy and all that stuff but the fact remains, we could take the best QB from recent drafts, put him behind our offensive line and he is likely to look very much like our present QBs.

I still maintain that the skilled offensive players, QB, RB, TE and WR, will only be able to perform to their max ability "if" they have a quality offensive line that allows them to do so.

Therefore a team is wasting it's money and draft picks on the skilled positions on offense if they do not have a good offensive line that will allow the skilled players to achieve their max potential.

The very best money and draft picks a team can spend is in the trenches of the offensive line and the defensive line. My preference is the offensive line first and Dline second...that's just me.

Being a successful GM is not rocket science folks. Just look around and see what the successful teams do well and consistently, and you will see that they have a continuous strategy of investing in their offensive and defensive lines.

Time for Savage to copy what Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Baltimore have done for years, build the Oline primarily, via the draft .

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From what Ive been seeing lately Phil could use the whole draft on the O-line and even if they were studs RAC wouldnt let them play because they are rookies or dont practice well. Some p[layers just play better then the practice.
I see Phil bringing in talent but I dont see them playing in games to see if they have any talent. All the guys mentioned probably would be sitting on the bench for us or gone by now.
I like Wilson he has fire he wants to play. Harrison why isnt he playing? Leon had a good game today. Anderson continues to make steady progress. The season is over lets see what these guys can do. Heck I dont care if win anymore games this season it doenst matter, I would rather see what we have in the youngsters.

[color:"red"] How many of the Browns current offensive lineman can you consider "dominant"
you explain to me why the Browns cannot control the trenches? [/color]
Is that your comeback?
If so..GO back to the Bungals board..why do U consider yourself knowledgeable about the Browns?
Can you expalin why U actually anyone to respond to U?
If not BUH-BYE..

[color:"white"]You're getting long-winded in your post-op age. Welcome to my world Eo <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I went into this year expecting the exact same number of wins as last year. We're still not a talented team, and we weren't going to be this quickly.

All I wanted to see was an acceptance of the problems of this team by Savage, and developement by our young players who'll form the core of this team for the future.

So, what have I seen?

Bentley going down was a huge blow, but Savage understood the problem by signing him.

Winslow, despite not being 100%, is developing.

Edwards, despite not being 100% (and despite some of us trying to tell people he wouldn't be <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ), is developing, even if he's still a petulant child.

Wimbley is FAR ahead of schedule.

Jackson played well for a rook (though I'm having a hard time understanding why Savage went after a badly undersized MLB for the 3-4, regardless if he was the highest remaining 'backer in the draft).

Bodden missed alot of time due to injury, but when he's played, he's played damned well and is clearly developing.

Jones is developing, even though he's not a pro-bowler like some would profess him to be.

Pool is learning a ton by playing out of position at CB. That'll be priceless experience for him as he transitions to Safety.

Finally, there's Frye. He still made a bunch of bad decisions, but I did see minor progress as the year wore on, despite playing behind a line that could easily have given up 70 sacks. I don't believe in him, but there's enough there to justify the time invested into him.

So is Savage on the right course? I'll know more after this free agent period and draft are over. I only expected 5 wins as we had a tough schedule. I expect 8 next year no matter what. In order to do that and secure the future, It's time to invest in the lines. If he doesn't, it'll be time for him to go. [/color]

You got that right.

Just to rant a bit <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...


8 wins, 3 wins....it doesn't really matter.

Unless it is a Superbowl win, it pretty much sucks with us doing little more than debating how badly it sucks.

[color:"red"] Jackson played well for a rook (though I'm having a hard time understanding why Savage went after a badly undersized MLB for the 3-4, regardless if he was the highest remaining 'backer in the draft [/color]
If I remember he said Jackson simply was like having a extra coach on the field..that he played a similar position at Maryland and he would be familar with the Will position in this 34.
Plus he said he was a football player ..personally I also thought he would go after the bigger backer either Parham/Hodge/Wilkerson.

[color:"white"]I remember (to a point) what Savage said, but It'll take some serious heart and mouse-powered strength to overcome his lack of size.

Time will tell, but I'm on the fence over that one. [/color]

you can add size, the kid has everything else.

only time will tell of course, but so far it looks good to my untrained eyes.

[color:"white"]Here's why I say I'm on the fence with him:

On one hand, during the minority of games where our DE's and NT's ate their blockers, he did well and made the stops.

On the other hand, when blockers were onto him, he had a hard time gettin' past'em.

So........we're back to the lines. We're ALWAYS back to the lines <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

[color:"red"]"Sorry tab,but your theory doesn't wash IMO"

[color:"orange"]Sorry actually it wasn't theory at all. I was going on what Savage stated. Not a direct quote. But basically saying he didn't want to go into the draft with a "NEED" pick for the team to Function. Obviously in a draft that would have to come as one of the early picks.

Never said "Fix" that is where you concept of my theory goes abash.

Getting guys to "Function" is probably more accurate. As in Stewart as in McG (who was probably a RAC request as Mentor was needed). But this is not my theory...simply repeating what Savage stated was his philosophy.

Bentley btw was a "Fix"...Baxter was a "Fix"...the rest were "Functional" FA picks.

[color:"red"]"McNeill would have been every bit as good of value as DQuell. But that wasn't the direction they were headed."

[color:"orange"]Never stated he wasn't. Direction was determined more by Need. ILB was the only glaring need. If we did not obtain Shaffer or Shelton...we would have had a need so that I think we would have tried to move up for D'Brick...probably backing out cause the price would be too high - and then opting for a McNeill in a similar move that we made for DQ. But the fact was we signed Shaffer. And now have an "Adequate" LT until we can develop better talent.

Whether I try to convince you or not...you will believe what you wish to believe.

What is important is that I'm right and Savage gets it. Not the part of me being "right" more so that "Savage gets its". I don't think he went into the draft with...OK this year Screw the OL I can't be bothered with them...I'm going to concentrate on LBs.

I think he went into the draft and hilighted 5??? positions to take precedent over others. Make a Draft board weighted with positions. When a position like WR rolled around and there was somebody there that was not in the weighted position but was considered a steal he went for it.

I think he had OL in those 5 positions and regarded 4th round as still a valuable part of this 06 draft.

I'm afraid we will have to just wait and see and probably come day after the draft we probably will be disatisfied with the pick as not being what we were looking for. I really don't see us taking more than 1 OL in the first 4 rounds as we did for the LB units. Primarily cause there is greater continuity involved with the OL...there is greater longevity involved with the OL...there is less rotational participation in the OL.

I can see us making investments from the draft only one at the time. Late 2nd day don't apply in this theory...they are Pie in the Sky guys.

I think there is a better chance of them investing in the DL only cause of the depth of quality that I see there and how many look to be slotted around our 2nd round pick. The odds of us taking Branch cause he is slotting around where we might pick...and or a Pitcock, Carriker, Okeye in the 2nd are pretty good. Not because Savage has deemed prehand...This year I'm concentrating on DL.

I think he's going with the flow of the draft and where their strengths lie.

Right now I see Thomas...then there is a drop so that OT for where we will probably pick would simply be a major reach - I don't know who will be available when we pick in the 2nd. But a lot of those guys. Lachey, Brown, Blalock will probably be taken from 20-40 which we might not be in. We will not take what is left when we pick at 45??? or where ever. Not when the Best rated 3-4 DE is there sitting for us. And in doing so presume its cause Savage just has slated OL as not part of his drafting strategy.

It might happen this way yet another year.

I'm not going to hold my breath - But a lot of it has to do with our luck...Maybe when we get some success and start picking in the 20's the OL guy that we covet will be slotted perfect. So many good OL go in those brackets. Cause the skilled guys go in the top 20 picks. Coincidently Faine was taken when we picked 21.

We got to get lucky cause OL is not an athletic position with many early candidates. We haven't passed up on many...yes last year we did pass up on McNeill. I personally agree with you that LT is rarer position than ILB to fill. McNeill was probably low on Savage's board not cause he was OL but cause he had Back Problems in his reports.

JMHO

I was never concerned by height..but he does need the extras mass to take on blockers all day..he's at 228 right now..he could do well at 238-240 ..ten pounds of muscle in upper/lower body will work..

[color:"white"]To be blunt about it, at this point in the game, if he has to reach he has to reach. It's that vital and there aren't any other needs that are so pressing.

He had legit reasons the last couple of years, but unless he manages to pull a rabbit or two out of his hat and covers both lines prior to the draft, he has no other excuses. If he has to reach he has to reach.

It's time, and I'm confident that he knows it. It's not like there's only one single position between BOTH lines that needs desperate attention <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> [/color]