DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum John Dorsey

Not sure why people keep forgetting that the Haslams brought in outside consultants such as Parcells, Wolf, Singletary, etc to evaluate the situation and offer suggestions.

I don't think we "backed into" anything. I think the Haslams listened to the advice of the experts and went w/firing Sashi, bringing in Dorsey, and retaining Hue.

Do you have a link to what those consultants suggested?

That information has been linked several times. Now, call me a liar.

So you won't post a link showing what those guys suggested...got it. Liar? You know that what you accused me of in our last spat was completely untrue. Call that what you wish...I know what it is.

edited for underlined emphasis

Anyone going to call WSU out on this one? Or not?

Did anyone notice the shoes that Sally wore with that dress to the grocery store yesterday? Ewwwww....is anyone going to call her out on that?

jc

I really love the players Dorsey brought in, and trading for and paying Jarvis is my all time favorite already. Bringing in hyde was a bit of a head scratcher for me, only because he has a history of being dinged up, but so far, its working out.

The one thing we have to worry about, which wont be for maybe 2-3 years, is how he manages the salary cap when its time to start paying these guys he drafted.

i think that was the biggest knock on dorsey? as far as talent evaluation, he has to be the best we've had since 99.

I agree. My buddy has said STR that good free agents want to go where their new team can score points and compete for the playoffs in addition to getting paid.

We've been able to pay guys - good guys or bad guys - but not consistently score points or seriously sniff a playoff run. Hopefully that changes starting this year and gives Dorsey more ammo in bringing in talent.

I do not believe Singletary was brought in as a consultant to evaluate the situation as suggested. I believe he was interviewed to fulfill the Rooney Rule for the GM position.

Haslam consults with a lot of people, including guys like 76ers former GM Sam Hinkie who's plan was to tank and build through the draft. Brian Windhorst: Haslam meets w/ Hinkie

Good stuff. Football talk starts about 19:00... at the time the Browns were 0-9 in 2016 season. "Haslam met with Hinkie when deciding what to do with Sashi". The Browns had adopted the Hinkie plan to tank tear it down to the studs and Haslam wanted some insight.

People can act like the Dorsey thing all happened "by accident", but the plan had a best/ worst case scenario from the outset. Best case - Sashi has the ability to tear things down and stack assets, we'll see if he and some analytics geeks can also evaluate talent. Worst case - no confidence in Sashi in phase two so we let him go... with the lowest salary in the league, at least a decent amount of young talent, and draft picks falling out of our pockets. At that point this will be one of the most desirable GM posts in the league. Worst case had a very high floor because by then everybody in the league knew that the Browns GM post was a very desirable position. Many league execs said as much.

PLANS CHANGE - DECISIONS DON'T. Jimmy may not have planned on John Dorsey from the beginning but I think he knew that someone would take Sashi's place... acted accordingly and interviewed accordingly. That's why he hired Sashi and avoided hiring a "football guy" until phase one was complete. He learned his lesson from firing everybody the last week of the season and standing out in front of the stadium with a tin cup begging for donations. A two year plan and a "placeholder" keeping the seat warm gave him plenty of time to arrange and make the right moves.

The other great decision was to give Hue breathing room during the process and wait for an OC until the plan was starting to take shape. Brutally painful for everyone involved but much better than starting over at square one. Hue knew the plan, Hue knew the owner had his back. Dorsey knew the owner had Hue's back before he even signed on the dotted line. This wasn't the time for turmoil and turnover in the locker room. This was a great plan, well executed.

I guess you don't have to give credit to the owner now - but eventually you will have no choice.

I'll give him this much credit. Sometimes when people screw up enough, they'll learn from their mistakes and get it right eventually.

Jed Hughes of Korn Ferry comments on pairing John Dorsey with the Browns


Jimmy Haslam has used Jed Hughes of Korn Ferry pretty extensively in a couple of Browns-related searches.

By Chris Pokorny@DawgsByNature Dec 28, 2017, 3:07pm EST
link

If you don’t remember who Jed Hughes of Korn Ferry is, check out our article on him from January 2016. He is an executive head hunter who helped lead to the hiring of Hue Jackson as the Cleveland Browns’ head coach.

This is a case where I don’t really think we can go back in time and blame Hughes for zeroing in on Jackson for the Browns, because it was seen as a big-time hire by the franchise at the time. Sometimes, things just don’t work out. Team owner Jimmy Haslam has used Korn Ferry for Flying Pilot J searches before too, so he continued using that familiarity when the team conducted its GM search during the 2017 season.

In an article with the Associated Press today, Hughes is profiled a little bit, including a quote about uniting the Browns with John Dorsey. First, much of the article touts the hirings that Hughes helped make for the Jacksonville Jaguars this year to get their franchise clicking. That segues into the Browns’ hiring of Dorsey:

The company puts together alignment sheets and an assortment of questionnaires and specs — some look as lengthy as a game plan — that reference the qualities the team or organization want, and the qualities the candidates bring. It doesn’t hurt, Hughes says, that he has long-standing friendships and bonds with so many people in the sports business.

Cleveland’s recent hiring of John Dorsey as general manager is a case in points, Hughes explains. The Browns began searching for someone much earlier in the season, and Hughes not only had a relationship with Dorsey, but recognized the skills Dorsey showed as GM in Kansas City — solid draft picks, salary cap management — were what Cleveland’s owners sought most. “He could manage a roster and a team’s assets the most effectively,” Hughes says.

In a day and age where it is difficult to keep secrets, Hughes managed to keep the entire process a secret while also fulfilling the league’s minority candidate interview requirements. Hughes also adds that because of the competitiveness of any hiring process, they do not take on more than one client at a time.

One has to wonder if Hughes advised Haslam not to conduct another head coaching search in 2018. If so, that certainly could’ve been a reason why Haslam went out of the way a few weeks ago to express the fact that Jackson would return in 2018, despite the team’s winless record.

I think our biggest issue has been that we've had people who have "known what they wanted", but when what they want isn't there in a draft they try to turn a prospect into it anyways.

I'm not entirely convinced that Dorsey is completely free of this (see Corbett), but he did a good job in FA filling needs/wants so that he didn't have to fit prospects into whatever "mold."

John Dorsey isn’t rushing the Cleveland Browns into win-now mode

We’re still getting to know John Dorsey, but it doesn’t appear like he’s rushing things in Cleveland.

By davidzavac@DavidZavac Oct 16, 2018, 6:00pm EDT


As the caricatures fade and reality starts to set in, we can start to make prudential judgments about just what kind of general manager John Dorsey will be for the Cleveland Browns. We can start to evaluate what skills and positions he values, and what kind of players he’s drawn to. As the games continue to pass, we can feel more and more confident about evaluating the players he’s brought to the team.

We can also start to determine his timeline for improvement, and evaluate the steps he’s taking to get there. Hue Jackson’s place as a holdover head coach complicates how we view this—it is a common view that with a 3-34-1 record, he is coaching for his life. The team brought in veteran quarterback Tyrod Taylor, presumably with the idea that he would be able to help the team win, and to win right away. Dorsey also made moves for veterans, notably bringing in wide receiver Jarvis Landry and right tackle Chris Hubbard. Fears seemed to involve Dorsey spending the Browns into salary cap hell, while jettisoning analytics and investing in old, past-their-prime players.

It’s worth noting, here, that Dorsey pushed back against this from the beginning. From The Ringer, in August:

I was halfway through my question when John Dorsey put up three fingers: “For a real rebuild, you’ve got to have patience, and it’s going to take about three years.”

Dorsey is the sixth Browns general manager since 2009. None of his predecessors lasted for more than three years.

Despite going 0-16 last season and 1-15 the year before, Cleveland might be in a better position than at any prior point during its near-decade-long rebuild. At the very least, the Browns are more interesting than they have been in years past. The Browns entered the spring with $110 million in cap space and a truckload of draft picks, and they pulled off a number of high-profile trades: Tyrod Taylor for a third-round pick, Jarvis Landry for fourth- and seventh-rounders, Damarious Randall for DeShone Kizer and a pair of pick swaps. They took Baker Mayfield, as exciting a quarterback prospect as there’s been in years, with the first overall pick. And even after all that, Dorsey was quick to point out, they still led the league in cap space.

The article goes on to mention that Dorsey is fascinated by the prospect of mastering the salary cap, and maintaining a roster that stays among the youngest in the NFL.

And indeed, John Dorsey has not managed this roster like a man dedicated to getting the Cleveland Browns immediate wins. He has not managed the roster like a man particularly interested in helping Hue Jackson save his job. First, the simple act of selecting a rookie quarterback with the top overall pick is not, generally speaking, a win-now move. It’s an important and necessary investment in your team’s future. Even taking into account Baker Mayfield’s age and college success, a head coach desperate for wins will be reluctant to hand over the keys to a guy who had never played in the NFL before. Of course, we know the team didn’t. But even beyond that, knowing the team had Tyrod Taylor in their back pocket, the Browns could have invested their first pick in a Saquon Barkley-type player that would have made an immediate impact. They didn’t do that. Even Denzel Ward, who had only one full season as a regular at Ohio State, was seen as a bit of a project pick. The Browns took him knowing full well they would throw him to the wolves and let him learn as he went.

But it’s Dorsey’s second round choices that stand out most of all. The Browns are fully content to let Carlos Hyde run into walls, even as Nick Chubb waits patiently in the wings. And Austin Corbett was drafted into the Browns offensive line without a clear position or role. In these picks—and with the Mayfield and Ward ones as well—it’s relatively obvious Dorsey simply chose guys he really liked. Perhaps these picks will pay off, because the Browns have a lot invested at the center and guard positions, and perhaps Dorsey believes Corbett will be a cheap alternative to J.C. Tretter or Kevin Zeitler in the future. In the case of Chubb, he’s demonstrated plenty of home-run potential. But the ultimate evaluation of all four of the first Browns picks will come later; for now, it’s worth noting that Dorsey didn’t seem to feel like he needed to draft immediate difference-makers. Perhaps it’s a three-year plan after all.

We’re now seeing this dynamic with the receiving corps. Dez Bryant and Rishard Matthews have worked out and not received or received acceptable contracts. Josh Gordon and Corey Coleman are gone. Dorsey determined that whatever they could help the team with now, he didn’t want them to be a part of the organization. Instead, Antonio Callaway is force-fed snaps and targets he isn’t prepared to handle. A mish-mash collection of fringe NFL wideouts and Jarvis Landry—while established receivers are on the market—doesn’t exactly sound like a team determined to challenge for a playoff spot.

None of this is to really even pass judgment on what’s happening; on the one hand, making win-now moves for an embattled coach seems shortsighted, but on the other hand, you’d probably want to give your rookie quarterback some real options to throw to. To go back to the Nick Chubb example, if you felt like you had drafted a real difference-maker at the running back position, but knew his rookie season wasn’t going to be one in which you seriously challenged for a division title, would you handle things any differently than Dorsey? It’s unlikely Hyde is back next season, and Chubb both got a taste for the NFL and kept his mileage down.

We’re still getting to know and evaluate Dorsey, but it seems as though he’s willing to take his time.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/10/16...eld-denzel-ward

Decent article. I don't think the author did this intentionally, but my biggest takeaway from the article is this:

Both Dorsey and Hue have not forced their high draft picks or pricey free agents into the lineup. That is typically not the case w/most teams and it certainly wasn't true under past regimes.

I like that both of these guys are making players earn their spots on the field. I think that bodes well for the future.

Why would Hyde not be back next year?

Hyde signed a 3 year contract and looks ok to me

We drafted a running back in the second round and signed Duke Johnson to an extension.

When two of what was expected to be your top 3 at a particular position group effect their own departure from the team, you're going to feel the impact. Add in the 4th & 5th options getting injured and you're left with Option 2 and 6+... .that's not a recipe for sustained success, especially in the short term.

nice article

We are in a major hurt at WR and it's not going to get fixed this year. There is nothing you can do with so many injuries at one position. I think like Paul Brown did with Jim Brown you have to exercise some tolerance for players with good talent and not be too inflexible.

Brown and Brown made the Browns.

In 10 months on the job, John Dorsey has now traded away:
* WR Josh Gordon
* RB Carlos Hyde
* WR Corey Coleman
* CB Jason McCourty
* DT Danny Shelton
* QB DeShone Kizer
* OT Shon Coleman
* CB Jamar Taylor
* QB Kevin Hogan
* QB Cody Kessler

https://twitter.com/FieldYates/status/1053380805064560640

And he may not be done ...

Come on...nobody on that list makes you gnash your teeth and roll around in agony because they've departed.
My expectations for 2018 was 4 wins while showing some actual competency and fire. It's still a realistic expectation. I expect a playoff push next season and a division tiltle in 20...

Dorsey is building this team his way and if he is doing it like he did in KC then I'm on board ...

No thanks ...

No defense and cap heck ...

Lets hope he learned ...

We already have some cornerstones on defense and we are looking great in our cap situation ...

Sashi Brown died so that we could live.

Cornerstones are a good start .... he had them in KC also ...

He came into one of the sweetest situations a gm ever has ... not sure one could ask for more ... so far he’s done GREAT WITH IT ...

There’s still a long way to go ... its a GREAT START and i’m EXTREMELY EXCITED about the future ... but thats all it is ..... a great START .... FINISNING is what seperates the winners from the losers ...

I want more than he did in KC ... LOTS MORE!!!!!

God knows we couldn't live with him.

Here are some of the Transactions Dorsey has made that are still on this team since he arrived in Cleveland :


January 24, 2018 Named Amos Jones special teams coordinator and Freddie Kitchens running backs/associate head coach.

January 31, 2018 DB Denzel Rice

March 8, 2018 Named Josh Cribbs coaching intern.

March 15, 2018 Traded DB Jason McCourty and the 219th pick in the 2018 draft to New England for the 205th pick in the 2018 draft. Signed DBs T.J. Carrie and Terrance Mitchell, TE Darren Fells, OL Chris Hubbard and DL Chris Smith.

March 23, 2018 Signed DB E.J. Gaines.

March 28, 2018 Traded QB Cody Kessler to Jacksonville for a conditional 2019 seventh-round draft pick.

March 30, 2018 Signed QB Drew Stanton.

April 6, 2018 Traded QB Kevin Hogan and the 205th draft pick to the Washington Redskins for the 188th draft pick.

April 13, 2018 Signed WR Jarvis Landry to a five-year contract extension. Named Larry Jackson strength and conditioning coach and Dale Jones and Monty Gibson assistant strength and conditioning coaches.

April 26-28 NFL Draft Picked 1. Baker Mayfield 1A. Denzel Ward 2. Austin Corbett 2A. Nick Chubb 3. Chad Thomas 4. Antonio Callaway 5. Genard Avery 6. Damion Ratley 6A. Simeion Thomas

April 30, 2018 Exercised their fifth-year option on DB Damarious Randall.

May 4, 2018 Signed WRs Evan Berry, Da'Mari Scott and Derrick WWillies; DB Elijah Campbell, OL Desmond Harrison RB Dontrell Hilliard

May 6, 2018 OL Austin Corbett, WR Damion Ratley and DB Simeon Thomas

May 8, 2018 Named David Jenkins executive vice president-chief operating officer.

May 14, 2018 Signed LB Genard Avery.

May 19, 2018 Traded CB Jamar Taylor to Arizona for a 2020 sixth-round draft pick.

May 22, 2018 Signed DL Chad Thomas and WR Antonio Callaway.

May 31, 2018 Named Steve Malin director of college scouting. Promoted Chris Cooper to vice president of football administration, Brandon Sosna to salary cap analyst and scouting assistant Scott Kaniecki to defensive quality control coach.

June 4, 2018 Signed RB Nick Chubb.

June 7, 2018 Agreed to terms with RB Duke Johnson on a three-year contract extension.

June 13, 2018 Placed DB Howard Wilson on injured reserve.

June 19, 2018 Signed OL Greg Robinson.

July 24, 2018 Signed QB Baker Mayfield.

July 25, 2018 Signed CB Denzel Ward to a four-year contract.

July 28 2018 Signed TE Orson Charles.

August 5, 2018 Traded WR Corey Coleman to Buffalo for an undisclosed draft pick.

August 31, 2018 Traded OL Shon Coleman to the San Francisco 49ers for a seventh-round draft pick.

September 3, 2018 RB Dontrell Hilliard, , WR Da'Mari Scott

October 25, 2018 Signed LB Ray-Ray Armstrong.

October 29, 2018 Fired coach Hue Jackson and offensive coordinator Todd Haley. Named defensive coordinator Gregg Williams interim head coach and running backs coach/associate head coach Freddie Kitchens offensive coordinator.

October 31, 2018 Signed DB Robert Jackson to the practice squad. Named Ryan Lindley running backs coach.

November 7, 2018 Placed LB Christian Kirksey and DB E.J. Gaines on injured reserve. Signed DB Juston Burris from the N.Y. Jets practice squad and DB Arrion Springs to the practice squad. Claimed DB Phillip Gaines off waivers from Buffalo and DB Jermaine Whitehead from Green Bay.

I cut it down to what - for me - are the most crucial and impactful decisions he's made.

Crickey - look at that draft. Corbett is a ??? but hard to imagine anyone can repeat that sort of draft success more than once every 4 or 5 years! Hope Dorsey proves me wrong and nails the next draft too - but that is a very, very high bar he set himself.

And all this time I thought it was Gerard Avery!

We should be 5 - 4 and 1 and in the playoff hunt. We got screwed out of at least 2 probably 3 games. We have playoff talent.

Bottom line for me- -Dorsey's decision making in the draft far outweighs what he did in FA or with trades. It's night and day for me.

Hopefully, he focuses more on the draft moving forward, because so far it seems like his first 3 out of 4 picks have worked out. Corbett is an unknown so maybe he hits once given playing time.

But he money given or draft capital given up for/to Carrie, Landry, Hyde, Tyrod, Hubbard, etc. seem like very bad choices IMO. The only one that has worked out is Randall.

It's going to be hard to duplicate the quality of that draft. We had a lot to work with (credit to Sashi for this, I didn't always agree with what he did, but this draft was largely the result of his work) and also Dorsey for making some excellent picks, even if some were widely unpopular at the time.

We've said a lot about Baker and Ward and rightly so. How about Chubb though-- currently PFF's #1 ranked RB. Hard to believe (or maybe not) but it's true: https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/nick-chubb/45783

I hope Corbett turns out to be a stud and is a dominant interior lineman for years to come. Why not? I say it's about time things start going the Browns way.

One area of concern: both OL that we coveted/pursued have been Hubbard and Corbett ... neither has proven to be worthy yet

Traded Gordon for a 2019 5th.