DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage...heading in the right direction?

[color:"orange"]I thought this pure football discussion deserves a life of its own. Is Savage neglecting important needs? Is he heading in the right direction? Sorry if its long winded but I'm open to debate <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My point in defending Savage is that we are rebuilding the team over completely...head to foot. In two short drafts The entire thing can't be rebuilt.

In regards to the D - you know as well as I its about the D front 7. In most 4-3's (I think Denvers is the only one that works it opposite) its all about the DL 4 and especially about the DEs - I'm talking about impact and studs.

In the 3-4 its all about the LBs and especially abouth the OLBs - about impact studs.

In 4-3 with a great DL you need good system LBs to get the job done maybe if possible a MIKE with some talents.

In a 3-4 with a great LB crew you need good system DLs to get the job done you do need a productive NT.

I don't deny the fact that with Savage's limited choices considering rounds 1-4 is where most starters are gotten. And the 05 draft was below average but to balance that the 06 draft was above average and we had two 4th round picks in that one.

But he chose not so much by design but mostly via how the cookie crumbles...who was available and how much value they had come time to make picks. When you got everything to build - everything is a need. But if you tell me DL is a definate priority over LBs in a 3-4 defense I must strongly disagree with you. In a 4-3 I would most certainly agree with you...a strong 4-3 is predicated by its studs on the DL....but a strong 3-4 is predicated by its studs on the LB department.

This of course cannot be translated to say you can get away with bums. But I'm talking about Investment priorities here as its the subject matter.

The Cowboys also building a 3-4 had so many pieces in their puzzle as an existing team. We never climbed out of expansion mode with our talent base. But in doing so their Needs were limited. They invested in OLB first (Ware) but was graced with and extra 1st round pick and took the talented Spears. But they were a team with not many voids.

We don't have that luxery - we are building everything. The 3 DL have taken a back seat in the draft not so much by choice but the right value simply weren't there. This coming draft btw has many candidates.

But I do object on your severe claim of incompetance towards Savage for not choosing DL. He has had 9 picks (rounds 5-on are bonus guys maybe in a strong draft like 06 you will gain but most years those guys are STers and if lucky maybe depth). And as mentioned 05 being weak Perkins just might be a lost cause. But we gained in 06 with Leon and Sowells for 4th rounders.

Savage has even told us in general what his draft strategy is.
1. first and foremost because of our failures of 99-03 to procure the talent in the first day to build a strong team. He has to be disciplined in his scouting charts and stick with it closely in BPA. This is to heighten the % of success.
2. He would draft to the strengths of a draft. If LBs is its strength one year look for us to go cause the values are there. If you draft to its weaknesses. You are probably getting 4th or 5th round talent in the 2nd or 3rd as there are runs in the draft...he told us this - Strengths of the draft. Last year was LBs did you notice us taking any LBs btw Well in 07 one of the strengths I see is 300-315 athletic DLman...last year as strong as the draft was it was pretty weak in this area and not a strength.

But I listened to Savage when he first came...and in his many interviews I took bits and pieces and came out with his basic philosophy of the draft...he sort of spelled it out to us.

Now as we are being built we no longer are a team that needs EVERYTHING...but our Needs still are great - we still have a lot of catching up to do. But little things like our newest signing tells me he gets it. Usually the nothing little moves we made in the past regimes would garnish us some Pie in the Sky UDFA's with little chance of making it.

Well remember when I said last years draft was weak in Athletic DLmen. Guess what - Savage just took away (from the Steelers practice squad I might add) the most Athletic DLman in the 06 draft. Orien Harris...he had attitude Red Flags all over the place or else he was a mid-late 1st round pick. Drafted by Miami (???) in the 4th and then released cause he probably was true to his red flags...I believe a young man can be hit with reality - his career could be over if he doesn't grow up. He was picked up by the Steelers and showed enough by staying under the radar in misdeeds and not getting in trouble. We just stole him and he was being trained as a DE/NT in a 3-4 system. Will he make it? I don't know - but his % of becoming a great one is big. Cause as mentioned this is no UDFA pie in the sky. this is a 1st round talent who has been humbled and getting a chance. If he makes it he could be big! I like these kind of pickups and in no way am I saying Savage's job on the DL is over. I'm saying for him to spot this kid and take him - means he is looking - he understands our needs.

With our needs being great there is no way he could cover them all ...even half in this short time via the draft. So I won't condone Savage bashing on the grounds that he doesn't get it. But in doing so I don't say we don't have a need. We most definately need more talent.

Now lets look at one part our Run D - our success against the Steelers game #1, Bengals who always ran on us before but could not smell any success and the Chiefs who have one of the best running games in the NFL.

Do we judge on the direction our Run D is heading by the one game or by the trend of what we see.

To just take the total yds given up by the run and say see we are the same. But ignore the fact that we just gave up a boatload of it in one game 300+ which skews the total stats.

As mentioned in other threads 300+ yds disturbed me greatly cause I was impressed with our Run D especially the last three games prior. But for me to villify this regime and claim see...Same old Same old our direction sucks - I think is wrong. I think that suggests change. Instead I would like to look at those 3 games prior and say we are heading in the Right Direction...the bad game simply tells us we aren't there yet but we never had that kind of success EVER not against running teams 3 games in a row. And I would like my praise be one to suggest we are heading in the right direction...stay the course. GET MORE TALENT!!!! and finish what we have started to build.

Yes this will require trust in Savage...look the local media villifies Savage cause he is not here delegating instead he is off scouting - Players for FA - Players for draft...and being the most prepared GM/Personnel guy in the NFL. So when I trust Savage to procure TALENT for us it is not done in blind faith cause he is a Brown.

I do so cause he continuously shows me hints that he gets it (Orien Harris) and he is out there scouting like a demon and more so than any other organization in the entire NFL!!!! This is not Homerism this is the facts. So I trust him...you don't I can understand. But I can debate easily that he doesn't neglect certain areas...he simply makes the best choices that come up with opportunity.

The less needs we have...the less he will dwelve in FA to catch up.
The more draft classes he participates in...the more strengths of a draft positions get covered and get picked for our team. Soon the Gambit will be covered. We will have finally established ourselves as a talented team and be competitive. Then his job will be equal to the other GM/Personnel guys in the NFL and that is to replace talent with talent. We are still trying to climb out of Expansion void of talent...this task was not done by Clark in 99-00 when the NFL gave us 26 (or there abouts) draft picks to catch up. They were wasted by Clark and have hurt this franchise tremendously. And you cannot neglect this fact...It is the primary reason Butch failed...and it is the primary reason that is the basis of your complaint with Savage. Once and for all he is filling the void. Then and only then can we be a team. You want to nit pick and say...hey he didn't choose this part yet he don't get it. I say it wasn't the strength of a draft class since we got everything to build his concentration is on Talent pure and simple. The more areas we procure the search narrows down a bit.

He told us from the beginning.
Its a long process.
He's building long term through the draft.
He concentrates on the strength of a draft.
This franchise was in a mess or else he wouldn't have been hired.
It is pure and simple our problem is:
Clarks entire draft of 26 picks not helping the team one bit.
Clark n Butch failures of first day picks 99-03. Not one Pro-Bowler...or figment of a Pro-Bowler candidate in the bunch...Simply unheard of in NFL football drafting.

But in 2 short drafts with limited picks you wish to castrate him for spots neglected??? As if by choice or design in philosophy. As Diam has preached to us for years...ITS SIMPLE - ITS ABOUT TALENT!!!

I choose to trust Savage...get back to me after 4 draft classes and tell me his Neglects. 2 classes is not enough.
JMHO

Eo, I guess I'm like a lot of other fans out there... sooner rather than later, I'd like to see progress.

That's about the only thing missing from this years team.. I've been a supporter of both RAC and Savage and I understand the need to stay the course,, but even as level headed as I try to be, I recognize that all I really asked for was some degree of Progress... We haven't gotten that this season,,, if anything, we may have taken a step backwards..

What's funny about that is that I can live with 1 step back if next season we can take two forward.. Time will tell and I'm certainly willing to wait it out,,, but I'm watching closely,,,,,Very closely!

Interesting post..U have NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />
Thought I'd tease U..U've been getting that handed to U lately for whatever reason <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]In a 3-4 with a great LB crew you need good system DLs to get the job done you do need a productive NT.
[/color]
Lets play that for the time being..Opie loves LB's..whether they're tweeners or LB's, he loves those..I'm going back from his days with the Rats..
Not a bad thing , U have to have those.
[color:"red"] But I do object on your severe claim of incompetance towards Savage for not choosing DL. [/color]
Who is this" YOU" you alude to throughout your post? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I think where Phil made his mistake in the 05 draft was the 4th round.
Perkins IMO was not needed(still luv my Sooner boys)..and there was a DE sitting there although with no bigger question mark than Perkins..Chris Canty 6' 7 300 pds..(I had him on one mock)..the knee injury I think scared off some teams but he is starting at Dallas I think.

That would have been a better way to go as we really had no true 34 DE's to groom.
I still feel Opie didn't have a great feel for the team needs in 05 but was on target in 06.

Now if I question any pick it's the Wilson pick..Yeah I luv the Sooner kids but IMO that was the round to go either Oline or NT..
Let me throw something out here and maybe Mourg might know this..
Opie picked up Osh in the 6th rd..yet he didn't know the kid would fall that low...I'm curious as to what he would have done had another team drafted Osh..and why did he risk going that low to take a NT(who really is more of a 34 DE)when that was a priority?
NT was more of a need than WR..

Now U know me well enough I just don't say those things as a change of heart or just hindsight but I have stated the position we need to focus on.

I think Opie gets it , the way he's had to build the team isn't the way he would have wanted to.
The cold reality is the FA pickups were just bandaids and U know what happens to a bandaid when it gets wet or gets rubbed and dirty..it comes off the wound..and thats what happening to our bandaids..they're coming off. And we need viable replacement starters either from FA or the draft.
I think this third draft will be more on target on the offensive and defensive lines..I really do.

Everything you stated, I totally agree. When Savage arrived this team had little if any real big time players. Me, you and most understand, it takes time to revamp an entire team. But some people want the win now at what ever cost, which in my opinion will cost us in the long run.

He has the ability to pick up players off the streets (holly) or practice squads (Matua, Harris) that may pan out. Most on this and other boards wanted these last two drafted. Me Matua (who by the way is still one year younger than most rooks).

Overall through year two he as done a great job imho, getting talent and hope he continues doing what he is doing. That being said I think he will honestly go after both lines during FA and the draft, and continue too scour the waiver wire finding the so called diamond in the rough that may pan out.

But the one thing I do question as of right now is the HC(which of course is in other threads), and how long he will be around. I was a RAC supporter but am starting to lean. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That being said excellent post.

LOL....Eotab....will always have credibility, as long as he agrees with me...... <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


Oh wait, agreeing with me is probebly why he's dosent have any.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess I better not agre with ya then. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

nordawg

I think Savage is an average to slightly above average GM. He has made some nice moves, especially in his eye for UDFAs and such. However, I think he's made a few questionable calls as well.

The biggest one that just kills me was that he didn't get a left tackle in the draft when it was one of the deepest crops of tackles I'd seen in awhile. His negligence of the offensive line on the first day is really questionable, especially due to the depth of the class and that there was still some nice talent available in the second and third rounds.

The second one was the draft day trade with the Ravens. First, I am against swinging any deal with a division rival. But we decided to do it...fine. But to swap picks with just a 6th round pick back... I was LOSING it when they announced that we swung that deal. Especially with a division rival.

I know people are going to say that we weren;t going to take Ngata anyways so a 6th is better than nothing. THis may be true, but if Matt gaddamn Millen could make Butch give up a SECOND round pick to move up a spot, we should have been able to get something better than an insiginficant 6th rounder back from the Rats.

If the off season is heavily dedicated to building a dominant O-line, adding a disruptive NT and a monster DE, then I would say yes, he is heading in the right direction. If not we're screwed and it won't matter anyway because they'll all be gone in '08 and we'll be starting all over again. JMHO

Pretty good points, as always, eo. I would agree with some of the above posters and say: if he addresses the trenches this offseason, I will agree that he gets it.

CD, you and I will probably always disagree about this... we had the pick before the Ravens,, Savage and RAC wanted Wimbley all along, and I think they knew that Ozzie wanted Ngata.. So if you look at it like I did, we got an extra pick and then drafted the guy we wanted anyway,.

Some on here are really hung up on this thing about trading with a rival,,, Who cares as long as you end up getting what you want and perhaps a little more... thats what Savage did.. So tell me, wheres the harm, wheres the foul.

I agree with you on this one. A lot of poeple see it as helping your rival get the guy they wanted. I believe they would have gotten the guy they wanted anyway we somehow stole a 6th round pick from them.

I would be upset about this trade if I was a Ratbird fan. They gave away a 6th round pick for a guy that would have been there anyway.

I know I was one of the ones p---ing and moaning about this too, when it happened, so I've come around to understand it was pretty much meaningless. Then again, what did we achieve in doing so ?

We took a pick from the Ravens that they might have used to further help themselves.... We also picked up a practice squad player with the pick... <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Someone said earlier,..."we should have gotten more." I agree--I would have squeezed them like a sniper on a trigger; at least a 4th rounder, where MAYBE WE COULD HAVE FOUND ANOTHER LINEMAN,....

Not yelling at you, just venting. And we really hurt the Ravens by taking their 6th round pick didn't we ?? They're about to go to a First Round bye, maybe even home field throughout. But, one pick does not a team make, SO WHY SLOBBER OVER THE SIXTH ROUND ??

To keep it short, I don't know.

This draft and off-season will tell a large part of the tale.

I know what you're saying.... But... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />... If Savage hadn't made the trade, we would have picked Wimbley anyway.... We would have gotten nothing extra. and the Ravens would still have picked Nagata, and no one would have been the wiser.... <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

So by making a trade and picking up an extra draft pick, Savage gets criticized. If Savage had not made the trade, no one would be complaining at all... <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes you just can't win...no matter what you try to do.... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just a few thoughts:

The Browns need to build a team. We've been trying to fill holes with FAs that never get personally invested with the team. This has not worked. We need to draft our future players, and have them ready when players retire, get cut, or leave in FA. We all know the turnover rate is very high in this game, but we need to be able to replace players from inside the organization, not from outside.

Continuity is the key for a good team. Some of the most successful teams in the league have kept their HC, GM, and assistants intact. Other successful teams have changed HC, but they will hire a new HC that will run a similar system. We just went from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Any talent base we had was unloaded because of salary, how they fit the team, because they were slackers, or because of lack of talent. Unfortunately, there is a cap, and we're not the yankees.

The trade with the rats in the draft wasn't a master stroke, but it was better than picking Wimbley 12th. We got an extra pick and still got the player we wanted, and we got to pay him 13th money instead of 12th. The rats would have been happy to take either Wimbley or ngata, we just gave them first choice for a 6th. The Browns would have been happy with either too, but we got 6th round for letting them have the choice. I'm not sure why people complain about this pick. Teams don't make blockbuster trades to move up one spot, unless you're trading with butch davis.

[color:"orange"]Daman...what do you consider progress and just where did it get determined that the progress went south? I think 6-8 wins this year was the sound money bet on where we stood as a team...although if you asked me I would state 16 of course. But when I look back in review of all the expert analysis of our team the best case analysis had us 6-8 wins. Can't remember any over 8 and can remember a few 4 and under. We are pretty much on target with 6 wins.

As far as expectations on Offense the impact players are young and inexperienced...we still are void of a running game - I think that can be realized until we establish ourselves with an above avg. OL we will not have an above avg running game...pretty pure n simple...Bentley definately was a blow and continuity is still just a word - the only possible substitution for talent on the OL would be continuity.

Defense - progress I thought the running D was definately showing progress as I noted we had 3 games in succession Steelers #1 30 116 yds 3.87 avg, then the Bengals 34 97yds 2.85 avg. and then Chiefs 18 57 yds 3.17 avg. This I consider progress.

Then Bang...debacle against the Steelers 47 301 yds. Sure if you go look at our overall stats it shows us just about where we were at last season. But was this Steeler game the judgment of progress or just a bad beat. It was a short week, We did lose Kelley who was giving us good reps at NT, We did lose Roye our best DLman, We did lose Russell our field general at FS, we did lose the performance of our rookie DQ who showed signs of progress only to give much less in this game and then we found out he was playing with turf toe. Excuses, yes but we most certainly are in no stages of our development to have depth ready to sustain these loses. We had a short week to get coached up.

So how do we determine progress??? Looking at our strong division and see that we have -0- wins (but in two we played well enough to win and even out played our division rivals true a loss is a loss but we weren't out classed). Looking at our strong schedule...we have played and lost to teams who were peaking and simply better teams than us. We beat 3 teams Jets, Falcons and Chiefs who are considered talented teams vying for playoffs. We have not lost any games that we were considered better. We rebuilt from scratch we are what we are.

Our defensive product most definately is better than last year - although a surprise still we have shown growth in areas of pressure, in controlling the LOS outside of the last game our disappointment has been in an area well known to be devastated by injuries.

I don't by the "lowly" descriptions that we receive. Maybe once but not 3 times as we beat the Falcons, Jets and Chiefs - those weren't flukes.

But we are still a ways off. This teams needs talent...as noted we have had 8 draft picks really to build that "Talent" through the draft. The only break this team has gotten is KW2, Jones and Bodden from the last regime and the one before it.

And yet if Injury free which btw usually is a common factor of Championship teams...they have a clean season in regards to injury. But even with our little build up if injury free Bentley, Baxter, McCutch and Bodden we easily...very easily could be one of those "Can you believe they are in the playoff hunt" teams.

Progress? first things first - Talent to me determines if this team is progressing.

I cannot remember the multiple of promising young talent on our teams since 99 that is where I see progress. BE, KW2, Jones, Pool, Wimbley, DQ and Bodden I consider a cache of young talent that has shown Progress and potential to be better than avg. starters in the NFL. This is fanstastic. We don't see it in Wins now but to see our future as dim and no progress from what? from what we saw before??? Never before did we have a chache of young talent that has seen no other team but the Browns and a future Nucleus...and there are others who can add into the mix. The step backwards? I don't see it...I agree it has been as vibrant as I would have expected. But we continue to beat the 2 easy teams we should beat...Tampa and Houston...we are at 6 wins pretty much where expectations of this team was and that was prior to injuries.

Attack..."The You" in this thread was in reference to Vers as the body of this post was from an existing discussion that was soon to be purged in the weekly game day forum. I didn't tidy it up as well as I could have.

Opie btw loves talent and defensive talent I think...as for his Raven Days - I give him credit for scouting the picks were all Ozzie. I can't really put a blue print in his tastes...I think he truly will go with the strengths of drafts - not to an overkill effect - noway he pulls a Millen and takes WR 3 years in arow <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But our 3-4 D needs LBs all the time with 4 and FA and retirement taking talent away there will always be a need.

[color:"red"]"I think where Phil made his mistake in the 05 draft was the 4th round."

[color:"orange"]If thats all anyone can come up with...I'm fine with that. To scrutinize a 4th round pick in a weak draft that when all is said and done will have a handful of success stories coming from the 2nd day...its fine with me. Canty btw is better than Spears right now so to back track there is fruitless if you ask me.

But Savage was hired...I distinctly remember his #1 reason to be good for us in a hiring was not for obscure 4th round pick successes. But the consistancy of talent procurred by the 1st day of the draft. That is why we hired him. We are ahead of 99-03 5 drafting years...2 of them with multiple first day picks with the late bloom of KW2 n Jones along with the first two draft classes of Savage.

Annoint Savage...no - see progress in the making...yes

And much consensus is saying if he drafts this and drafts that...well to those parties I will ask this of you. Before putting one or two specifics that you deem as necessary or else...is it a strength of the draft? If so then it heightens the prospects of us getting one.

Then also we have to get lucky to have a specific need drop talent to us as BPA when we pick.

Last year I wanted LT more than others so understand the frustration as we wait for the draft investment. But there we were in the 2nd round and a choice....LT or ILB.

If there was one position that we were going into the draft with a Big Time void it was ILB - so when we opted to move up on DQ I understood...I don't understand however how short term memory everyone has. ILB was marked as the #1 need by Everyone when I say Everyone I mean Every draft site...every poster. Not in individuals pimped by posters but when asked what position do we need from the draft...ILB was the most noted NEED by far. I can't villify Savage.

In my brief review of this draft...it has a strength in 295-315 lb athletic Big Men on D...and One 335 lber who might fall in our laps or might not. But some good in depth talent so that DL early on could be rather realistic. Okoye could be special as well as several others. Will they be there when we pick in the 2nd?

Again I can't put any OR ELSE on Savage for specific positions. As long as he consistantly hits on his 1st day picks...we are making progress. My goodness how soon do we forget the failures. Couch, KJ, TP, CB, Cutt (lasted), Abdullah, Warren, QM, JJ (or PP if preferred), Green, Dre, Fowler, Faine, CT and Crocker.

Now we are going to complain if we pick someone who turns out to be a stud but he plays ILB not OL or Safety not DL. As long as we hit and get an above avg starter...we are light years ahead and why Savage is here!!! Once the cupboard is full then I can see us Nit Picking specific Needs.

JMHO

Firstly,Rome wasn't built in a day. And neither will this team. I've seen areas of great need addressed,and areas of other great needs being attempted to be addressed.

While I DON'T like BE's attitude and progress,he has the talent if he's diciplined and forced to concentrate on developing his talent. We were in desperate need of a LB corps and we invested a 1st,2nd and 4th rounder to address it.

I am disapointed that Coleman and Druzi were considered as upgrades to the point that we haven't seemed to invest in the draft so that rplacements for them aren't waiting in the wings,but once again,Rome wasn't built in a day. And you have to give him credit for the fact he went out and got Bentley even though the injury occured,Savage can't predict future injuries.

So I do see progress being made from a lalent standpoint. But it is a work in progress. And IMO,the jury is still out. I feel this upcoming draft will give us a lot more information as to wheather he is really "building a team for success".

If the trenches are put on the back burner in the draft,and OLDER FA's are once again his solution to address the trenches,I'll have grave concerns as if he understands how to truely build a team.

But as of now,I've seen plenty of evidence that Savage is the best talent evaluater we've had so far. And I'm in a wait and see pattern and consider the jury is still out.

JMHO

J/C, in another thread on here some are saying Savage is going to feel a lot of pressure to draft a certain Buckeye QB, well, with the way our Lines have been since the return, I would think the pressure for OL and DL would be greater than that of any QB.

I think Savage gets it and I don't think he filled or acquired all of the players that he would have liked to in the first two drafts he's been involved in. I really think he will concentrate more on the Lines than anything else, though I think he will be looking for a CB to compliment Bodden and maybe a Safety if Russell doesn't get resigned.

But I think the main focus will be on making the O Line and D Line better through the draft and maybe some FA pickups as well.

... Well I Phil and I are on opposite sides of the coin when it comes to building a Team in four to five years ( that seems to be the time frame everyone talks about )

... I build my team from the inside out , up front on both sides of the ball " FIRST " .. No way I take BE, with the third pick in 2005 ( on the record ) .. Fact is we needed so much I would have made the trade down at almost any cost ..

... Would have passed on both Pool & Perkins .. Well the list just gos on & on.. I saw it different then , I see it different now .. Going to see if Savage shoots himself in the foot in 2007...

WD, I agree about Edwards, we needed to address the OL and DL before WR. Though I'm not sure I would have traded down? As for Pool and Perkins, well Pool has not proven to be a bad pick and Perkins has not proven anything other than he can waste a roster spot and stay injured.

2005
1st round ? Braylon Edwards, I wanted Derrick Johnson or Shawne Merriman (I liked Johnson more because he reminded me of LaVar Arrington). I can?t complain about Edwards though because he can become a stud receiver, he just needs to catch the ball more consistently and shut his mouth.

2nd round ? Brodney Pool, I wanted a CB at the time and was surprised we took a safety. I had my eye on Corey Webster and it appears that he is developing well in NY. Pool could still convert to a CB; it will be interesting to see how Pool will pan out.

3rd round ? Charlie Frye, I actually wanted him at this point in the draft. I didn?t think he would start as a rookie and was hoping he had a stronger arm than he has shown.

4th round ? Antonio Perkins, I was so mad at the time because I was hoping we would take Brandon Jacobs (6?4? 260lbs.), Marion Barber was also available at the time and would have liked him as well. This seems like the WORST round Phil has given us. If Perkins could turn into a Hester type of this year I would forgive him.

2006
1st round ? Kamerion Wimbley, I wanted Haloti Ngata. I now see Kamerion was probably the better of the two but it would be nice to have a fat man that isn?t 40 as our starting NT.

2nd round ? D?Qwell Jackson I liked the pick then and still do.

3rd round ? Travis Wilson, I wanted Jerious Norwood. Wilson has caught all of 0 balls this year while Norwood has over 500 yards rushing. I guess time will tell on Wilson but having a RB that is 6? 210 and runs a 4.3 would be a nice asset.

4th round ? Leon Williams and Isaac Sowells, I wanted Barry Cofield and Rob Sims. Sims and Cofield start while neither of our picks has started a game this year. Williams gets his first start against the Ravens.

Savage?s Picks - 2 WR, 2DB, 3 LB, 1 OL and 1 QB
My Picks ? 2 LB, 1 DB, 2 DL, 2 RB, 1 OL and 1 QB

Hindsight is 20/20 but just a note to Savage QUIT DRAFTING WR on the first day you don?t need to. Use the picks on OL and DL.

Year One- rip out all the big money, no-playing, ill-fitting players. Replace as best you can.

Year Two- draft in prospective "impact players"... as many as you can to fill voids, and round out the draft with BPA at positions of need. (The Balto draftswitch landed Baba wiithout sacrifcing Wimbley- good move, in my my book) FA lands guys like Bentley and Jurevicius.

I believe that Savage took the OL FA's (Bentley, Shaffer) and D7 FA(Washington, McG) to 1. give us some veteran experience on the lines (another need) and to 2. tide us over until more draft pics could be procured/trained. The hope was probably that Shaffer (based on history/improvement) would show enough to get LT off our list of needs, LeCB would solidify the interior, and allow guys like 'Druz to squeak out another 1-2 years. LeCB going down scuttled all that OL stuff, and WillieMac's been less than 100% most of the year, too. Hey, it's still a crapshoot, folks.... no matter how much you know.

Year Three- ??? If I see Savage go heavy on OL and DL in the draft, I'll believe that he "gets it." My prediction is that he does... and will load up on those positions, simply because we have enough players elsewhere to allow him to-for the first time since he came here. We're still a long way from solid, but we're not as full of holes as we were in '05. A good OL and DL will make ALL these other players that much better than they've been. That means marginal players become , acceptable players become good, and good players become great. It really does still start in the trenches.

___________________________________________________


Before this season, we had so many needs that it almost didn't matter what positions got strengthened first. (I say almost, because of guys like DQ and Wimbley... we had to have them, just to remain competitive this year.) Now, we have 2 glaring needs, instead of a whole host of glaring needs... OL and DL.

Year Three- gotta get it right- with draft and FA. NO MORE SKILL POSITION FA'S... they cost too much, and can't produce until we fix/strengthen the lines. A healthy dose of OL and DL draftees are the only big need this team still has... and the only thing that will get us out of the basement (and keep us out...) in the years to come.

So far, I can't really grouse about what Phil's tried to do. I've tried to see what choices he made, and why. For the most part, I can see the reasoning behind most of his choices. I may disagree with his sequence, but it's hard for me to say he's squandered any moves.

What will tell us if he gets it or not, is how he handles this next offseason.


I know Vers will probably take me to task for saying this, but I kinda wish Phil was helping to make our choices back in '99.... at least I (believe I) can some rhyme and reason to the choices he's made so far- unlike the profoundly head-scratching choices I saw during that first draft... and the 5 drafts to follow.

Too early to tell, Eo... this next offseason will tell the tale.



.02

My contention is that the selection of Wilson, Williams and Sowells will make or break Savage next year. With a team that is desparate for players drafting 2 (Wilson and Sowell) without any intent on playing them (e.g. the redshirt comment) this year takes a lot of intestinal fortitude.

There are other players that I would have selected.

I do like the pick up of Fred Matua and Orien Harris. They were projected to go a lot higher than they did. Given the issues on the line I hope that one or both pan out.

[color:"red"] If thats all anyone can come up with...I'm fine with that. To scrutinize a 4th round pick in a weak draft that when all is said and done will have a handful of success stories coming from the 2nd day...its fine with me. Canty btw is better than Spears right now so to back track there is fruitless if you ask me.
[/color]
Backtrack? If thats what it is U know I do it after every draft but I don't just throw a name out of a player I never even considered we should draft.
Canty,Claude Terrell,Elton Brown were all guys I had thrown in to look at.
I remember thinking that day that Phil hadn't really took anyone for the Olne not anyone for the 34...I saw Canty /Brown freefall and I thought for once we'd get a young promising linemen..while Brown wasn't promising but Canty has turned out to be a force..
But that was my beef was it seemed like these selections were afterthoughts
[color:"orange"] 4- Antonio Perkins CB Oklahoma
5 - David McMillan DE Kansas
6- Nick Speegle OLB New Mexico
6 - Andrew Hoffman DT Virginia
7 - Jon Dunn OT Virginia Tech
[/color]
Perkins I knew about..Speegle I actually had on my mock(along with Edwards/Frye),Hoffman..who was that?
Dunn..another VT linemen..but one I knew little about.
I think Opie could have addressed it better.

Especially the Dline as he had purged all the LOSERS that were here and brought in Fisk..smart player but playdough in terms of force.
It's why I made my statement about Opie luving LB's...he seems to have those rated higher than Dlinemen.

I understand your point completely Daman. We got the guy we wanted plus an extra 6th. So where's the harm?

There is no "harm" persay...but Savage I think undersold the pick.

Lets look at it the other way around. We know that Baltimore wants Ngata. By the same virtue, we also know that the Ravens don;t want Wimbley as they are more or less stacked up at LB/OLB as is.

So rather than go to Baltimore, why don;t we swing something with the pick after them and talk to Philly? They obviously were in the market for a DT as well since they took Bunkley. Maybe they would've liked Ngata. So instead we talk to Philly, and go for maybe a 5th as they're moving up two spots. Just by the virtue of talking with other teams, I think we could've boosted the value of the pick.

I just believe that we should have gotten more out of the Ravens.

[color:"orange"]PitDawg...excellent post - pretty much what I wanted to say but in many, many fewer words... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Peen read PitDawgs post - basically thats what I said <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]"If the trenches are put on the back burner in the draft,and OLDER FA's are once again his solution to address the trenches,I'll have grave concerns as if he understands how to truely build a team."

[color:"orange"]I felt a need to give some observation on this. I don't see Savage drafting OLDER FAs or as I put it Vet FA (starting talent) as Solution. He see's the void. He doesn't want to go into the draft...just a benchmark as in time frame April...and FA starts in March... He doesn't want to go into the draft with a OH SHOOT WE DONT HAVE ANYONE WE MUST DRAFT ONE EARLY OR ELSE situation.

This puts a team in position to REACH and not get their worth in the draft.

So yes, he will fill all holes as much as possible before entering the draft. Last year I saw him do so except one ILB. Coincidently we moved up in the draft to take one talent as soon as Demeco Ryans went cause we deemed DQ as the other ILB stud.

But when we do stuff like that its not to say JOB DONE don't look for talent.

It just eliminates the "REACH NEED" in a draft. I don't think he loses sight of Long term young talent Need in positions. I see Savage eliminating some positions such as WR, TE, QB Safety as we approach a draft where to pick one we have to have a steal drop to us. But the need position is not a small list it still is pretty wide spread. Once we get in the draft Savage has been consistant to pick his board or Need positions and BPA.

When he does so I don't think its cause he thinks he solved our Need with an aging Vet talent...he simply filled the void. Draft the right guy has to fall to us as the best talent available. And he explained why. There is no guarantee of success just the % of success gets moved up...and in a long term situation. The great successes will add up and there is where you get a team after 5 years of look at all the Pro-Bowlers this team has...and usually those teams will be competing for the SB year after year.

I don't relish us having a Pro-Bowl WR...over a Pro-Bowl DE - but at this stage our team needs anything and everything we can get. And just have to trust the Formula of Success laid out for the long term draft build up. Positions filled get put back on the burner leaving less n less as positions of need for the draft.

After we reach to some extent of an established team...Haven't done so since 99 we never got off the first rung of the ladder. After we establish then we can sort of set up a Team Character...and concentrate on upgrading areas we deem as important to be better NFL competitors like I and you and others believe the team with the BEST BIG MEN in a Big Mans game will prevail. But right now it is IMPERITIVE for this team to climb out of the Expansion Bog we seem to be stuck in. The only way to do so is with TALENT...any TALENT.

Thats the way I read it at least. I'm just so happy we are getting out of the Expansion Base finally once and for all...I see Savage doing this. So be it with WR, DB n LBs first we are in that category of Beggars cant be Choosy. Lets get out of bog once and for all. Then form a character of the team of OL - D Front 7 as a priority.

JMHO

Joe Thomas, Justin Blalock, Jake Long, Levi Brown... Hard to pass up one of these guys in our position unless you're looking at Brady Quinn or D-line, IMO.

Jake Long has announced he'll stay at Michigan.

Blalock and Brown could both be traded down for...

Hmm, even better. Didn't know about Jake, thanks.

[color:"orange"] Something was brought to my attention so it bears saying..which also reminded me of why his first draft was so weak on the second day and it really wasn't due to it being a weak draft.

Savage told us that he had to get the whole scouting system set up for a 3-4 as many of his scouts had no experience with that scheme.
Also, the coaching staff was not complete for some weeks after Savage was hired, so they did not have as much input as they had this year.

Now it's been mentioned before that he still had scouted before he left the Rats organization so why didn't he use that info?

Sure, he had the info he carried in his head and on his home computer from his time with the Ravens, but the situation was not a stagnant one as he left before the combine and really, in the middle of the most important part of getting ready for the draft.

This would leave him vulnerable in the later rounds where scouting is key. He would have to rely on his newly developed scouting system. It was newly built and untuned.
And it showed in those 4-6 picks since those were all for Rac's D..
I still don't retrack my earlier remark about what deemed more urgent than taking a corner in 4 but it actually shows how untuned his system really was.
Looking at 2006 we know he had his system in place and they all had a much better idea of what the schemes demanded.
It showed more attention to detail and need ..going to this third draft it should show much more so.
I am curious how he attacks FA next year.
I think we may also see him try to raid our division rivals harder..or make them overpay to keep a FA..


[/color]

[color:"orange"]Blalock and Brown cannot be discussed in the same breath of Thomas.

LT is considered a Skilled position by Savage (his words) the other two are OG or RT material...different position and if you look at Hutchinson went around 17? They are best slotted around 20-40 which would mean we would be lucky to have them be there in the 2nd which our luck has always had these guys go closer to 20 than 40.

Attack...it definately could be the case. Without a doubt we Scouted the bageezbas out of the 06 class and had a good draft. I still say even if you are correct we didn't lose out much cause historically we will find the 05 class on the 2nd day to not be as qualified as others let alone 06. But it makes sense that whatever we were in 05 it wasn't as complete as 06 and all future drafts regarding the simple make up of our scouting system.

But still - BE, Pool and Frye 2 years later seem to be (not the best in their class) very solid pickups for us and refreshing considering our past experiences with the draft!

JMHO

Whether we trade up or down, we need O-line.

[color:"GOLD"] Just clicking to add my thoughts on Savage.

Savage is the best GM the Browns have had since our return in 99.

Is Savage the best GM in the NFL?

NO, Savage is not the best GM in NFL or even in the top 10 best GMs in the NFL, in my opinion.

Savage did improve dramatically in the 2006 draft compared to the 2005 draft. The improvement is mostly in his second day picks compared to the 05 second day picks.

I'm hopeful that Savage will continue to improve and refine his draft strategy.

It's no secret that I feel the area of neglect in Savage's draft philosophy is the offensive line. I can understand, that when building a team from scratch, which is what Crennel and Savage set out to do, rebuilding the team as if it was our first or second expansion year, that every need can not be addressed in only two drafts.

We did have some talent but so much needed rebuilt that some area's were bound to be neglected in the draft and thus free agency was used to fill our needs in the Offensive line.

I can forgive Savage for neglecting the offensive line in 2005, his first year as GM.

I can forgive Savage for neglecting our offensive line again in 2006, his second year as GM.

But now is the time for Savage to tweak his draft philosophy and address the offensive line needs via the draft. The Cleveland Browns offensive line can no longer be neglected on the first day of the draft.

It's time to replace some of the Browns aging free agent talent on the offensive line. Bentley is definitely a keeper "if" he makes a full recovery. But the Browns are going to have to either sign Fraley to a free agent contract and use him as Bentley's backup or possibly a starter at G or RT....OR...use a first day pick to draft a center.

There are several offensive linemen who may be 1st round picks. Joe Thomas LT, Justin Blalock OG, Levi Brown OT, Jake Long OT, Aaron Sears OT, Josh Beekman OG.

I'm just hoping that the Savage and the Browns begin to build their Oline for the long term, via the draft, just like Baltimore, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh have done.[/color]

Sorry tab,but your theory doesn't wash IMO

They made a concerted effort to build a young corps at LB through the draft with inserting McGinnest in as the veteran. So you're trying to tell me a first,second and fourth picks were all dedicated to the LB position,yet now you're telling me they addressed all they could in FA to fix glaring needs?

They could just as easily spendt the picks on the OL and used more FA money on the D side of the ball. They made a fairly obvious concious decision as to their direction in the draft by spending tons on patchwork FA's on the OL side now for the last two drafts with the lone acception of Bentley.Druzi,Coleman,Shaffer were no more than patches that are fading fast in the cases of Druzi and Coleman,and while Bentley was a galant effort,we now have one VERY expencive casualty.

It's time to dedicate the same concentrated effort developing the foundation of our team this year,the trenches,a we did the young,athletic LB corps we see emerging this year.

McNeill would have been every bit as good of value as DQuell. But that wasn't the direction they were headed. So if you're trying to convince me,after moving up to get DQuell,that they were looking at value for where we were slotted,I don't think so.

We need at least one FA G that's young with skill and upside and a first day pick on the OL and DL. We will need a second pick on the DL or at least the one with another young DL player with upside from the FA market for me to think they're properly addressing the REAL problems with moving forward.

I don't see how you can sit there and look at last years draft,then tell me they didn't target need and position into the equasion. How last year,three of the first four picks,including the first two,were dedicated to the LB position,then throw this BPA "they did what they could in FA first" line around?

They obviously decided to go youth in the LB corps,bit the bullet and did it. Let's see if they do that with the trenches this year or not. This same line we keep hearing about filling holes through FA's is fine,but enough with all the patchwork going to the trenches,somebody needs to address it soon,or they'll just keep following the same flawed logic. And a huge portion of our cap space will once again be going to a full boatload of underachievers. That's not building anything.

JMHO

If we go into the draft with our current needs...OL and Dline, and we are picking in the top seven. Who should we pick? It seems as though most people are saying...no matter what...O-Line. If Thomas is gone and Branch is there do we take Branch and hope to pick OLine later. If we don't pick Branch and pick the # 2 rated OL....Blaylock or Grabb..will anyone be happy or should we fill our next biggest need...NT.

Most sensible mock drafts I've seen have us going DL in the first 2 rounds and OLine in the third (as opposed to WR, RB, DE in first 3 rounds). If Thomas is on the board, pick him. I personally think Thomas will go in the top three. If Thomas is gone, and Allan Branch is there, pick him. Our need for a NT is almost as great as our need for OT or OG.

I wouldn't be upset whichever way Savage goes in the first round. I would not be happy with Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, or Marshawn Lynch. If Thomas and Branch would both be gone...I'd settle for Adrian Peterson....but NOT TROY SMITH... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil Savage should have been concentrating on the rebuilding the o-line through high draft picks the 1st year he was here.
Instead he rolled the dice committed a drafting sin, taking a WR in the Top 5.
Edwards so far hasn't meritted being a Top 5 pick.
Brodney Pool isn't raising too many eyebrows.
There are still doubts about Charlie Frye. Turns the ball the over too much.Still lacks a true feel for reading defenses.
Antonio Perkins was a waste of a pick.
David McMillan's best game came in the preseason of 2006.
Nick Speegle..probally at McDonalds
Andrew Hoffman..who
well whattya know Phil Savage finally takes a o-lineman....the legendary John Dunn....
so far I don't see any future All-Pro's out of the 2005 Draft...

2006 rolls around. He goes LB crazy. Then he goes after skill players....Travis Wilson can't beat out Dennis Northcutt or a converted WR from QB.....Jerome Harrison can't rise above Jason Wright.
Will he ever draft a o-lineman........
But wait he drafts Issac Sowells out of Indiana...but he might as well drafted "Issac" from the Love Boat. Cause both can't get on the field for the Browns.
Kinda ironic how some of Phil's best draft picks,weren't draft picks at all.They were undrafted aka Simon Fraser and Josh Cribbs....
both are doing what those Oklahoma kids couldn't do,get on the field and make a impact.
Under Butch Davis or Phil Savage..it don't matter,the Browns are still getting dominated in the trenches......can't run the ball or stop the run.
Getting dominated in the trenches gets you 6-10 and 4-9.....

I think Savage gets a pass for his first draft, he'd been in the building for all of 5 mins with nothing in place as far as his own scouting system is concerned.
I got no probs with the first 3 rounds, all have seen the field and all are picks for the future but this....



Is pure Bungle bunk. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Of course all your picks from Round 4 onwards in that draft are pro-bowlers and bona fide starters right? <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

More of the same re: your assessment of the latest draft. You do realise we completely tore down our roster the first year and this is our first year rebuilding? This is where you fall down and get accused of trolling, if you're going to talk football then do so. This bait you keep throwing out stinks. <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

Since Marvin Lewis came aboard,Riddler, his mid RD have produced but you wouldn't know that cause you didn't research..

2003.. 4th RD Jeremi Johnson..one of the best FB's in football. The Bengals success running the football starts with him.

2004..4th RD Robert Geathers....5th in the NFL in sacks with 10.5.
4th RD Stacey Andrews...has filled in for Bobbie Williams at RG the last 4 games. A converted T. Could start for a number of teams.

2005..4th Rd Eric Ghiacuc. Has anchored the Bengals o-line since C Richie Braham went out week 2. All he has done is get better each game and keep Carson Palmer protected.
6th RD Tab Perry....the Bengals best special teamer and a weapon on offense.

See Riddler the Bengals are getting major contributions from there mid RD picks....

2006..Domata Peko....the Bengals resurgence on defense can be related to this beast from Michigan St...he's outplaying other DT's drafted before him like Brodrick Bunkley and Gabe Watson. Has 35 tackles and .5 sack playing in a 4 man rotation..he's looking like a steal and making Marvin Lewis look smart...