DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Head Coach Search part III

Wow.

Why is a Beach Boys song going through my head? (They keep their boyfriends warm at night.)

Honestly - 2 more good wins from the team this year and I have Williams as the overwhelming favorite and Kitchens as a shoe in that can't leave unless he's offered a promotion on a different team.

Panthers, Broncos and Ravens are all good tests. Winning two against div rivals Bengals is always tough regardless of how they look on paper.

I don't think there was any expectation at the time they fired Hue that Williams was the long term solution ... but the timing was such it's given Kitchens and Williams enough of a sample size to see whether the immediate improvement was a temporary boost or a legit reaction to some discipline, focus and structure. (you know - 'coaching')

I'm not on board with Williams getting the keys to the castle whatever happens the rest of the way - but I am 100% behind rooting and hoping he does well and continues what he started. I'm much closer to being convinced of Kitchens.

Even with all the resources we have, our D was never sound.Problem with GW is that he like fashy/highlights defenses, not sound D with good fundamentals.

After bounty gate,I doubt GW will ever get a chance to be HC...

Yup. I like how the team has been performing.

But there's other coaches out there. Gregg Williams as our DC is one thing. As our Head Coach is another. He's done a decent job so far this year, but Bounty Gate pretty much excludes him in my book of ever being Head Coach on this team.

All I needed to hear was the audio of that to know exactly what kind of guy he is. I don't want him representing my team.

If a new coach comes in and decides to keep Gregg on as DC, that's fine. I like how Williams uses our D-Line. I know there's arguments on here about 4-3 base defense verses hybrid. But, we go out there with two DT's and two DE's. That's what I like. LB's and secondary can be more interchangeable. But I like the way he uses our D-Line.


But I do not want Gregg Williams to be our head coach going into the future. And if he can't deal with that, he can hit the bricks at the end of the season too.


Oh, and I like Freddie Kitchens and how this offense has adapted. I think he definitely deserves to be a OC in this league. But, I definitely don't want Williams as our Head Coach next year. If that means losing Kitchens as well, it is what it is

I thought he already did with the Bills?

Keeping Williams because he had a nice finish to the season... I feel like we've seen this movie before...


Let Dorsey tune into his list and get us the guy who will be on the same page and lead us into the future.

He coached the Bills before Bountygate.

Here's an audio recording of Williams during Bountygate Season with the Saints. The one where they won the Super Bowl, while delivering late hit over and over again on Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnn9kbqQUA .
Listen to 2:30 and later. That's enough for me. That's not who I want to be head coach of our football team. Period.........


I'm willing to accept him as our DC. But this man should never be the Head Coach of a franchise again. This year is an exceptional circumstance because Hue/Haley was fired mid-season. But at the end of the year he should be DC or below. Just how I strongly feel.

The thing about GW's Defense is very similar to Pettine's Defense in the way that you need a very talented secondary in order to pull it off...The one area where injuries have hit the most. It didn't help that they traded away some DT's that were big contributors in stopping the run game.

I disagree. There's a big difference between a head coach and a coordinator. The Head Coach is the face of a team. They are also the leader of the team. They are in charge of the day to day team operations. A coordinator works for the Head Coach.

There's certainly a difference. I do not want Williams to set the standard for the Browns. I want him to enforce the standard that the Head Coach sets for the Browns.

I was not a Williams fan, but he has done a good job setting a new set of standards for the team. The team has played much better since he took over.

He is the coach of a team I haven't felt this good about in many years. I would have no problem at all if GW was kept on as HC.

I look at it this way; I trust Dorsey. If he thinks GW is the best choice moving forward, then I'm good with that. If he thinks someone else is a better choice, I'm good with that too.

If Bountygate disqualifies him from being a permanent HC, why would you be ok with him being defensive coordinator or interim head coach? The responsibilities as interim head coach are basically the same, albeit on a shortened time frame. As DC, he's actively involved in teaching and motivating the players.

I didn't listen to the clip this time around though I have a pretty good memory of what he said. It definitely crossed the line but he learned from it and moved on.

That's pretty much where I'm at too. I think the next head coach will be from outside the building. If it's Williams or someone else from within (can't see it being Kitchens despite some suggestions about that), that's ok too.

Projecting who will be a great head coach in this league is already very difficult. We see some team owners, who have been successful in other fields, struggle with it mightily. As a fan who isn't part of the interview process, even more so.

I have no issues with his past.

1. don't tell me they were the only team doing that stuff. He learned it from somewhere.

2. I surely think he learned his lesson on being caught.

3. If it would get us a SuperBowl after the what we have endured, bounty up playas!

My thing is the window is too small for me to arrive at such a conclusion. From what I've seen to this point I would agree. But I'm convinced that I need to let the season play out before I can be firm with that opinion.

Going from the worst to averageish is a huge upgrade.

For better or worse, they are responding to Williams and Kitchens. Baker seems to have an excellent relationship with both. Same with other players. They seem to relate to Both of those guys.

There is no question that for the first time in a long time, we seem to be able to rise to the occasion. We did hit a buzz saw last week, but damn, Houston is that good. No shame in losing to a team that stacked.

We have 4 more games.. I think it will become clear if Williams and Kitchens should remain in their current roles...

But, so far, I like what I'm seeing.

I'm not saying GW would be my first pick, but I don't believe Bountygate disqualifies him. First, he's paid his penance. He was caught and punished and, in all likelihood, learned his lessons. Secondly, he happened to be the one who got caught, not the person who invented the practice. He's an old school coach from an old school coaching tree. That is learned behavior. He just happened to be caught executing that type of football with a recording device in an era where the way things are done are changing. The fact that he was caught on tape doesn't set him apart from a myriad of coaches who were guilty but not caught. Finally, if he earns the right to coach through performance and through the decision making process, then he deserves the job.

Please note: I'm not defending the action, and think it is good for football that he was caught. It helped move football out of the dark ages. It's a violent sport to begin with, violence outside of the rules should not be tolerated. The tape is hard to listen to and the behavior is despicable. I'm glad it was exposed.

JMHO

Fair post.

It reminds me of what I've wanted to see from the Browns over the years-- more toughness, attitude, and physicality. That's not to be confused with dirty football though.. that I'm not a fan of.

Just for perspective ......

Cleveland Browns: Can Gregg Williams beat the odds and be a success as interim coach? – Terry Pluto | cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2018/10...erry-pluto.html

Williams proved to be an elite defensive coordinator with the New Orleans Saints (2009-11). He was suspended in 2012 for the “Bountygate” scandal, where players were paid for knocking opponents out of games.

No defense of Williams. But he hardly was the only NFL coach who had that kind of scheme going. I’m glad he was suspended and it was exposed, because it will at least drive that stuff deep underground. Football has enough violence without adding the elements of a bounty.

JC to everyone:

1st) Just because Williams paid his penance, doesn't mean he deserves a promotion to Head Coach. There's only 32 coaches in the NFL.

2nd) There's a big difference between Head Coach and Coordinator. Head Coach is the leader of the football team. Coordinator works for the Head Coach. This is why i've been okay with Williams as D-Coordinator. He is not the leader of the Browns. He simply ran the defense for Hue Jackson.

3rd) His move to Head Coach for this season simply happened because Hue and Haley were fired. I work on ships. If the Captain dies, the Chief Mate assumes the role of Captain. But that doesn't mean they're Captain, that just means they're acting in that role until the new Captain comes in (or they're given the permanent battlefield promotion).



I guess I disagree with a lot of folks on here. But that audio was too much for me. I do not want Gregg Williams being Head Coach of this team next year. That audio talking about hitting guys with concussions in the head, attacking players knees who have suspect ACLs, and so on, is despicable. He might have done his penance and deserves to be able to coach in this league, but that doesn't mean that i have to accept the idea that he should be our head coach.

Cause that's just something that i can't support

Agreed...maybe not for the same reasons you have, but I don't see him as our HC next year.

No one is saying that. What I was staring is that if he earns it, and wins the job through the process, then Bountygate shouldn't or wouldn't preclude it.



I believe we all understand the difference between HC and DC, but to cite that as some sort of difference for having him on the team seems like a very fine, and convenient distinction. Sort of like he can be my son's friend but he can't date my daughter.



I think we're all dialed in on how and why it happened. The analogy is interesting though in that he could get the permanent battlefield promotion. Not saying he will, but he could.



So if he did get the battlefield promotion, what would you do?

just clickin'


Ya know, that was pretty much 7 years ago. I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but that is a LONG time ago. There are felony prison sentences shorter than that, lol. I think folks are holding onto grudges over things they weren't a part of a little too tightly.

All that matters, IMO, is how he performs in the current role. His past does not matter to me just as his record nine years ago doesn't matter to me. It is what he is doing here, now, with this roster and this staff.

There is also nothing in that which says he doesn't deserve a promotion to Head Coach.

You seem to be taking the stance that the Chief Mate should never become a Captain because of something he did a long, long time ago. But, if the Chief Mate got busted down and served his time and worked his way back up, why wouldn't he be eligible?

I'll say that he might be professionally eligible (in the eyes of the league), but in my eyes, I want a candidate that didn't do this.


I guess I'll be the odd one out that disagrees with most. But i can't get that stuff out of my head. Maybe because I was a big Kurt Warner fan and that 2010 Saints Defense pretty much ended Warner's Career.

I remember when it was happening (Warner and Favre getting hit needlessly in those playoffs), and thinking that the Saints were dirty. Afterwards, finding out that this was their tactic and they were creating money pools to hurt players, really upset me.

I lost all respect for Gregg Williams. Still don't respect him. If a Head Coach wants to hire him on as DC, that's fine. They're responsible for him though (although, clearly that didn't work for Sean Payton, who served a year suspension for Bountygate).

To not account for what he did 7 years ago seems foolish to me. And i'm not going to ignore it. He might have "learned" from it. But it still shows the type of guy he is.


I'm sticking to my guns on this one. I'm happy with the way the team is going. I like Kitchens as our OC. I don't want Gregg Williams as our Head Coach though. There's too many other candidates without something like this in their pasts.

Same thing I'm doing now. Complain. I root for this team. Not the players or the coaches. Gregg Williams as Head Coach won't change anything, other than me saying that I disagree with this decision. I don't like Gregg Williams.

I guess no different than politics. I didn't vote for our President. I can't stand our President (and i'll leave it at that). But i'm still an Involved American Citizen.



Sure, he did his time. And seven years ago was a long time ago. Long enough that i'm okay with him being our DC. But I don't like the idea of someone like that steering our ship.



All depends on what he did Purp. If you murdered someone, should you be upset when your aren't being considered for being the Pope? A little drastic, but i'm going there

What i dont understand is ... dude made a major mistake ... a major mistake ... ONE ...

Thats it ... no 2nd chance ... after he served his punishment he now has a lower celieng on his job opportunities FOREVER ...

I thought we gave folks 2nd chances in this country ... i think EVERYONE short of pre-planned murderers deserves a 2nd chance ....

The more i think about the less I want Gregg as HC ... i’m With bone on this one in that ...

His D philosophy is to put pressure on the QB ... that means heavy blitzing ... well he “tweeks: it a smidge depending on personal .. like Pepp playing in the lake last year and Williams blitzing while laying the CB’s 10 yards off and the middle of the field wide open ...

That doesnt even make sense ... why u gonna pressure a guy and give him 3 options within the first 1.2 seconds ... i get it ... your keeping them in front of u so they have to run more plays ... but thats just dumb ...

That was just an example ... his D can be extremely affective IF and ONLY IF:

- u have the talent ... it takes 2 really good “press” coverage cb’s and some dudes that can rush the passer ... not DUDE ... dudeS ...

- an O that can score points ... his D is much more affective with the lead ...

And he doesnt “tweek” his system to fit his personal near good enough IMO ...

At first i thought maybe HC with him bringing in a DC ... problem there is he’s gonna hire a DC with his philosophy ... not my style ...

Good Luck Mr. Dorsey ... U GOT THIS ... i hope ...

I do that too! Best of DT, an honest post.



Yes, that is reason enough to complain, too.

....

I think Gregg Williams is or should be a candidate to stay head coach because I think he gives the Browns the best chance, (or a chance) to win.

Whoever gives the Browns the best chance to win, that's the coach I want.

Cutting a dozen Veterans, and half a dozen assistant coaches, re shaping offensive and defensive schemes,

And having to Watch EX Browns Still playing for just about every other team in the NFL, including playoff teams, That's not what I want!

Just my 2cp.

As DC, he is much closer to the D players, much more so than the HC. To me a HC is a "team" coordinator, and usually does not have the same relationship, or as close, as the coordinators and position coaches, aside from positions like QB where the QB/HC are basically tied at the hip as far as futures.

Oh, I believe in second chances and all that. But this is something different. It's not a second chance at being a D-Coordinator, it's getting a promotion to Head Coach.



And it just means lower ceiling of job opportunities forever with me. Personally, I don't own a team. Don't run a team. Don't hire coaches. I sit here on the board and bicker about the Browns with the rest of you guys.

Personally, Bountygate is enough for me. I don't want him as Head Coach. Clearly, everyone doesn't agree. I imagine the same is in the NFL with teams. Some teams have him crossed off their list, some don't.


As for his defenses, like you, i'm not the biggest fan. But i'm so sick of the three down defensive linemen look that it's seen as a major plus in my book. I don't want a new defensive coordinator who comes in and installs a defense that doesn't call Myles Garett and Emmanuel Ogbah Defensive Ends

j/c:

Or promoted him. BountyGate is a non-issue with me for the most part. We have certainly turned blind eyes to other stuff here. Like him as a DC.

I will trust Dorsey on this one especially. After all, I do not need to like the hire at all (although it does make being a fan easier). We can find The Coach, I trust. Great players help that along.

This concerns me: Who replaces Dorsey after this Magical Mystery Tour plays out?

I believe the team is responding to Baker moreso than Williams and Kitchens.

j/c

I want GW to stay on for some semblance of continuity AND he's clearly righted a tilting ship...but...I want more for Kitchens to stick with Baker...and I don't care for GW's defense all too often. I don't have a horse in this race...but I do have a jockey I really like.