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Bake certainly didn’t make Haley look good
Indeed... coaching matters... Hard to dispute that after what we've ALL seen this season.
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New thought! Bring Hue back for an interview, to comply with the Rooney Rule.
People want to believe that stuff is right.
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If the Browns hire Hue, this offseason, and then fire him, 3 weeks earlier than they did this season, = Playoffs.
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I agree with this concept, but there is a synergy that happens, with many factors involved.
Baker has improved as the season has progressed. Practices in general became very much different after the switch, more energy, more competition, more discipline. The OL blocking got better, the drops almost disappeared, penalties are fewer. Hue's practices frequently had many guys standing around doing nothing, this does not happen anymore.
Faster-developing plays have been emphasized. Nick Chubb has replaced Carlos Hyde.
I don't know what Haley was doing, I assume he made the Hyde choice and may have chosen Taylor over Baker, as well. Hyde over Chubb alone is questionable. He also was calling all those motion plays where the motion guy ran between Baker and the snap with very, VERY tight timing which I thought was not a good idea with a rook QB. Haley, at least in part, made Taylor look maybe not quite as good as he really is. 13 sacks in 2.5 games, and Baker just passed his season rushing total last game.
Freddie has been much more inspirational, gotten players more involved, been more imaginative in his play-calling.
Imo the enhanced practices, team attitude, and Baker's play, improving with experience through the season, have combined with Freddie's skills in something of a perfect storm.
I do not think Freddie would look as outstanding any other place he could possibly go, maybe KC but we are poised for a Patriots type dynasty here and why would anyone not want to be associated with that?
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Kitchens took an OL giving up record sacks, a rookie QB that was losing his confidence, a receiving core that couldnt catch a freaking cold and made it into one of the most exciting offenses in the league. Baker is probably gonna break the rookie TD record and could end up with a freaking 95 rating!!
You either make him HC or someone else will. I love Greg williams but he can get another DC job, he isnt going to get another HC job. Kitchens is going to get the call and we just have to decide if it is with us or not. He is going to be this years Gase, McVay.
3 options to chose from
Option 1.
Keep Greg and look to bring in a new OC and hope he works well with Baker because freddie will be gone.
Option 2.
Promote freddie to HC and try to satisfy Greg with a raise ASS. HC Title/Defense or go out and get a DC that fits what you want to run. Its not fair to Williams but to steal a line from Highlander, there can be only one,
Option 3
just blow the whole damn thing up and start fresh and I just dont see that one happening with the Haslams and with how this team responds to these coaches. Option 4: Keep Williams as HC, Freddie to Asst HC and OC, Williams son to DC. I think Freddie knows that one of the key components to his success as an OC is Mayfield. I think most other teams will also see that is the case. The assumption seems to be, Hey, look at what Kitchens did with #1 overall pick,,, quick, let's make him our HC...... I just don't buy it. Start listing the teams that will want him that have or are expected to change HC this season. You'll see there are glitches in each. I just don't think he's in the mix. YET
#GMSTRONG
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Also. MR. Haslam should let John Dorsey make the coaching decisions. He's our GM that's what you hired him for and he has been very good so far. Leave it up to him.
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Dorsey is more in control of the team now, than Hue, Sashi, or Haley were when the team moved on from them?
I think it is what it is,
Dorsey can make the decisions, as long as the Haslems are ok with them.
Just a guess.
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Dorsey can make the decisions, as long as the Haslems are ok with them.
Just like my marriage
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Dorsey is more in control of the team now, than Hue, Sashi, or Haley were when the team moved on from them?
I think it is what it is,
Dorsey can make the decisions, as long as the Haslems are ok with them.
Just a guess. A good guess. I think it is like that with any pro team. The GM might lead the search, but in the end the person signing the checks has the final say. It's not like drafting players. The head coach is a part of the senior management team. Like it or not, the Haslams are going to be the ones checking off the final box. That said, I feel that Dorseys opinion is a trusted one.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Just felt like posting a thought I had.
Would there be a way to do a "gentleman's agreement" with Kitchens and Williams where GW would sign a three year contract with the understanding that FK will take over at that point? Then, throw a bunch of money at them both, it doesn't' affect the cap, after all.
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Just felt like posting a thought I had.
Would there be a way to do a "gentleman's agreement" with Kitchens and Williams where GW would sign a three year contract with the understanding that FK will take over at that point? Then, throw a bunch of money at them both, it doesn't' affect the cap, after all. One sleight problem, and I think the reason other teams don't do this... If Kitchens has another year next year like this one, he will be hired as a head coach somewhere, so he wouldn't need to wait 2 more years. On the other hand, if he falters and shows his inexperience and that this year was a fluke, the Browns wouldn't want to be committed. NFL is a what have you done for me lately league.
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This would be unprecedented. Any “coach in waiting” scenario is unrealistic.
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I see your point. And just for argument's sake, let's think about it this way: if we sign GW & FK to 3 year contracts, and FK shows he's got the juice for a second season, we can always give GW a golden parachute and make FK the HC at the end of next season. All the team would be on the hook for is GWs contract. By giving GW a nice buy out, you can keep his son at DC, FK hires an OC he likes, and we keep all the systems in place.
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“You say Rooney, I say rule. Rooney. . .”
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What if Williams says no and wants more money?
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Then, you have to make the hard decision. I was just trying to find a way to stack the cards so we could keep a good staff together for as long as possible.
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Then, you have to make the hard decision. I was just trying to find a way to stack the cards so we could keep a good staff together for as long as possible. Not happening. There will be no “wink wink” deals.
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I see your point. And just for argument's sake, let's think about it this way: if we sign GW & FK to 3 year contracts, and FK shows he's got the juice for a second season, we can always give GW a golden parachute and make FK the HC at the end of next season. All the team would be on the hook for is GWs contract. By giving GW a nice buy out, you can keep his son at DC, FK hires an OC he likes, and we keep all the systems in place. It's a great idea and interesting to think about. It would be INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off, and when you get too complicated in the NFL things have a way of blowing up in your face. Usually better to just pick the best and stick with them. None of the shenanigans we've been used to.
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I know the NFL is a different breed of cat than other industries, but there is a long history of companies "grooming" the guy to take over for the soon-to-be retiring current chief.
Wonder why it can't/isn't done in this case?
I think of the McDaniels/Colts situation. I've held the conspiracy theory that The Hoodie and Kraft cooked up just that scenario to make sure McD stayed there.
And aliens do exist.
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I think McDaniels might end up somewhere else this year.
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He prolly will ... rumor has it theres gonna be a mass exodus from Foxboro ....
- kraft removing himself away from day to day ops each and every year ...
- Gronk done .. brady’s not been Brady this year ... Kraft hurt himself bigtime letting JG go ...
Rats off a sinking ship is what i’ve Heard ....
Your prolly right .. some moron owner will hire him .. after what he did last year .. NO WAY i could EVER TRUST him as my HC ... not a shot in heck ..
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I know the NFL is a different breed of cat than other industries, but there is a long history of companies "grooming" the guy to take over for the soon-to-be retiring current chief.
Wonder why it can't/isn't done in this case?
I think of the McDaniels/Colts situation. I've held the conspiracy theory that The Hoodie and Kraft cooked up just that scenario to make sure McD stayed there.
And aliens do exist. McDaniels is exactly the case I'd use for the counter example. Let's say (hoping!) that our next head coach, in this case Williams, goes on to win a Super Bowl. That will give him AT LEAST 5 years job security. Firing a SB winning coach in Cleveland? The stadium will be burned to the ground. So in the case of the Pats, McDaniels left to Denver, then he had the weirdness last year with the Colts. It's just always messy. We can't afford messy in Cleveland right now. We're not the Patriots... yet.
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I must live in an oddly simplified world. I would just think Jimmy says to GW, "Hey, I want you to be HC for the next three years. Sign here." Then he says to Freddy, "And youare going to replace him when it's time. Sign here."
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I must live in an oddly simplified world. I would just think Jimmy says to GW, "Hey, I want you to be HC for the next three years. Sign here." Then he says to Freddy, "And youare going to replace him when it's time. Sign here." What if Kitchens ends up sucking? What if some other team offers him more money and a coaching position before then?
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What if Kitchens ends up sucking? What if some other team offers him more money and a coaching position before then?
1) Then you cut your losses, like we have with the other duds we let go. It's pretty obvious we have something good here, let's not let it slip through our fingers. We've taken bigger chances on less promising regimes. 2) Work those situations out in the verbage of the contract.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I just can’t envision such a scenario working.
Why would Gregg accept a term limit? He is older, sure, but he says he loves coaching and feels young. So, in your mind, you turn around the fortune of the franchise and then you’re given an end date regardless of any success? Why stay for that?
And, if you’re Freddie, why would you delay a promotion you’ve been waiting for? He likes Baker and Cleveland, sure, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he’s sufficiently enticed by other opportunities to leave.
One of the more interesting things said about the coaching situation was when Kitchens said that he probably wasn’t Gregg’s first choice for offensive coordinator. These guys have worked with each other for less than twelve months. Getting them to agree to such an unusual coaching arrangement seems very improbable.
I’ve said it before: If you’re hiring Williams, you’re not hiring Williams and Kitchens for the long term. You’re only hiring Williams with the (reasonable) assumption Kitchens will remain offensive coordinator for 2019. In effect, you’re choosing continuity for one year because anything beyond that is far from guaranteed. And there’s nothing the Browns can do to keep him here if he wants a head-coaching job.
Personally, I’m incredibly impressed with Kitchens, and I’ll be severely disappointed if he’s not granted an interview. If I’m Dorsey, I want to hear his thoughts on improving the offense, his plans for a possible coaching staff, etc.
Because, right now, I think I favor Kitchens over Williams.
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Biggest question in hiring a first time HC that was a coordinator is always can he make the transition and take on the additional workload. Calling plays is one thing, being a leader and organizing and helping gameplan all facets is another. I'm not saying Kitchens can't, but we can't afford to take that chance. I mean he's not even been a coordinator at any level sans the last 8 games. Allowing baker to do things he does well more isn't game changing coaching. It's common sense. So while I'm happy with what's been done, I'm not signing up for kitchens to be the guy. Big picture, outside of Amos, I'm very comfortable with this staff coming back next year in the positions they currently hold. Listen to GW locker rooms or practice field speeches, dude knows how to motivate guys while keeping them grounded at the same time. He knows discipline is the key to anything you do. He's not getting nearly enough credit for the turnaround imo.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Biggest question in hiring a first time HC that was a coordinator is always can he make the transition and take on the additional workload. Calling plays is one thing, being a leader and organizing and helping gameplan all facets is another. I'm not saying Kitchens can't, but we can't afford to take that chance. I mean he's not even been a coordinator at any level sans the last 8 games. Allowing baker to do things he does well more isn't game changing coaching. It's common sense. So while I'm happy with what's been done, I'm not signing up for kitchens to be the guy. Big picture, outside of Amos, I'm very comfortable with this staff coming back next year in the positions they currently hold. Listen to GW locker rooms or practice field speeches, dude knows how to motivate guys while keeping them grounded at the same time. He knows discipline is the key to anything you do. He's not getting nearly enough credit for the turnaround imo. I disagree. The interview process determines the candidate that is best prepared for the job. Denying a competent candidate the opportunity to interview seems shortsighted. If he fumbles the interview because he lacks a full-fledged plan, then you turn your attention elsewhere, but he’s earned the opportunity to interview, as far as I’m concerned. I understand that he’s only been on the job for eight weeks, but he’s demonstrating a natural feel for playcalling and Arians was already developing him in Arizona. In those eight weeks, he outproduced a playcaller with a decade of NFL experience with the same personnel. Now, it’s often prudent in the NFL to allow opponents the time to adjust and see if your success can be replicated against those adjustments, but Kitchens is adjusting on a week-to-week basis, too. He’s doing genuinely creative things in terms of gameplan design/formation variation. He’s running the same concepts out of multiple formations and running multiple concepts out of the same formations. And he’s sequencing the concepts with anticipatory calls. Meaning, if he expects you’re adjusting from Cover 2 to man-to-man based on the last drive, he’s calling something with man-beating concepts. I understand the idea of just progressing to the mean after fielding a dysfunctional offense at the start of the season, but it simplifies the fantastic job that Freddie has done. It’s like denigrating the job that Williams has done in instilling discipline. Yes, it was common sense what needed to be done and Williams had an easy act to follow, but it doesn’t mean that it didn’t require some uncommon ability to pull off. I think Williams, Kitchens, and the young core have resurrected the franchise. I would love to keep them all indefinitely, but I know that success invites poaching and, in the interest of long-term continuity, I tend to favor an offensive mind.
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The interview process determines the candidate that is best prepared for the job. Denying a competent candidate the opportunity to interview seems shortsighted. Bingo.
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Biggest question in hiring a first time HC that was a coordinator is always can he make the transition and take on the additional workload. Calling plays is one thing, being a leader and organizing and helping gameplan all facets is another. I'm not saying Kitchens can't, but we can't afford to take that chance. I mean he's not even been a coordinator at any level sans the last 8 games. Allowing baker to do things he does well more isn't game changing coaching. It's common sense. So while I'm happy with what's been done, I'm not signing up for kitchens to be the guy. Big picture, outside of Amos, I'm very comfortable with this staff coming back next year in the positions they currently hold. Listen to GW locker rooms or practice field speeches, dude knows how to motivate guys while keeping them grounded at the same time. He knows discipline is the key to anything you do. He's not getting nearly enough credit for the turnaround imo. I disagree. The interview process determines the candidate that is best prepared for the job. Denying a competent candidate the opportunity to interview seems shortsighted. If he fumbles the interview because he lacks a full-fledged plan, then you turn your attention elsewhere, but he’s earned the opportunity to interview, as far as I’m concerned. I understand that he’s only been on the job for eight weeks, but he’s demonstrating a natural feel for playcalling and Arians was already developing him in Arizona. In those eight weeks, he outproduced a playcaller with a decade of NFL experience with the same personnel. Now, it’s often prudent in the NFL to allow opponents the time to adjust and see if your success can be replicated against those adjustments, but Kitchens is adjusting on a week-to-week basis, too. He’s doing genuinely creative things in terms of gameplan design/formation variation. He’s running the same concepts out of multiple formations and running multiple concepts out of the same formations. And he’s sequencing the concepts with anticipatory calls. Meaning, if he expects you’re adjusting from Cover 2 to man-to-man based on the last drive, he’s calling something with man-beating concepts. I understand the idea of just progressing to the mean after fielding a dysfunctional offense at the start of the season, but it simplifies the fantastic job that Freddie has done. It’s like denigrating the job that Williams has done in instilling discipline. Yes, it was common sense what needed to be done and Williams had an easy act to follow, but it doesn’t mean that it didn’t require some uncommon ability to pull off. I think Williams, Kitchens, and the young core have resurrected the franchise. I would love to keep them all indefinitely, but I know that success invites poaching and, in the interest of long-term continuity, I tend to favor an offensive mind. thats all fine with him interviewing him but shortsighted to make it as black and white as that. I never said he shouldn't get an interview..i'm just saying I personally don't want to risk it because we've built momentum with how we are now. By your thinking every coach would never fail because they interviewed well enough to get the job. Some may know exactly what should be done or what they want to hear but when it comes to actually execution, fail miserably. (see browns coaches since 1999). Like I said, I'm for keeping this staff together the way its constructed. Promoting kitchens will mean rebuilding the staff. He's already got the Ass. HC title, so he can only be pried away for a full time HC gig...really doubt he gets one.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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in the end, I think we'll have to make one of the three choices:
- We can do better than Kitchens, and Williams becomes the HC
- We can do better than Williams, and Kitchens becomes the HC
- We can do better than both, and we get a whole new staff
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I'll add one caveat: if we get Arians, Kitchens stays as OC/Associate HC
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Fred’s gonna be a HC dawg ... Pretty sure that ships sailed .... 
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I think Freddie will get a shot, at sometime in the future, and then we will find out if he is one of those coordinators suited to be a Head Coach, or not. Right now, IMO, he has nowhere near the experience above position group at this level for that to be at all reasonable.
I like him a lot, but I think the best possible condition is to maintain just exactly what we have right now, and it should be fairly easy to keep status quo for at least a year, likely 2 or 3.
Hopefully by that time we will have groomed replacements as needed, Baker will be more established, and we can continue fairly seamlessly.
We have young, fresh eyes tweaking and revising established systems on both sides of the ball. The entire team has had a new culture created, this is what we have all waited for. Why would anyone want to change this?
I listen to CBD almost every day, Zegura has frequently described the team as being 5 of the last 6. Every time he says this to a player, they have ALWAYS said "5 out of 7". Since the change. Some have used those words. This is the winning identity, the new culture. The end of the Factory of Sadness.
Enough money will make it happen. Do it, Mrs. Haslam.
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U think Fred is going to be a HC somewhere next year or u think he’s an OC somewhere next year? ... Everything i’m Hearing about the guy is pushing me more and more into his corner ... I’m sooooooo impressed Parcells heard enough good things about him to want to interview him w/o any previous relationship ... then he goes in and gets the job with the tuna ... thats no easy feet bro ... Your thoughts on his chances of being a HC vs OC somewhere next year please ... Ty sir ...  I think Freddie is going to be a HC either next year or the year after. I think maybe he needs another year as OC to get a little more experience running an entire offense, but I think if we play the game of waiting for him, he will get offers elsewhere and get chirpings in his ear. I think we go the route the rams went with LA. I heard I believe on Rizzo show - Grossi said that LA wanted to groom SM by brining him as OC first, but was afraid that after a year he would get an offer elsewhere. So they just gave him the HC job so they didn't lose out on him. IDK if that's true, but it makes sense in that scenario if that is what happened. I can see that happening here as well. Freddie is going to be a hot commodity. The OC that turned the browns around has a lot a weight if you look at how inept we were a few weeks before he took over. NIGHT AND DAY. I think we should just hire him as HC, give greg the option to say on as DC/Asst HC. If not, then I say we hire BA and let him groom Freddie a few years if we can get a wink wink deal with him.
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I guess I don’t understand the thought that Freddie is automatically becoming a head coach after this season. The guy has been an OC for all of ten minutes. Yes he’s done a remarkable job but I’m not sure he’s ready to make that leap.
Maybe I’m being optimistic to think he stays here as an OC and continues to build a name and a resume through continuing to develop Baker.
Is the end game for every coordinator to be a HC? I know the money and ‘fame’ is there. Isn’t finding the right fit, the right QB, and winning a championship or two as an OC maybe a goal too?
I don’t know? To me getting a HC gig at say Miami (rumors are Gase could be gone) is a lesser job right now than the Browns OC. Tannehill is fools gold. The draft is thin at QB. Etc.
I hope Freddie stays with us. Stays with Baker. OC or HC, matters not. At 44 years old he’s got time to make the change. Right now he’s got a hot handed young QB... sounds like a fun, secure, place to be.
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you have to wonder if Freddie ends up with another young QB if he's passed on here (Jets, Cardinals)
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974 |
in the end, I think we'll have to make one of the three choices:
- We can do better than Kitchens, and Williams becomes the HC
- We can do better than Williams, and Kitchens becomes the HC
- We can do better than both, and we get a whole new staff +1 that is pretty much it, huh? Its that simple yet soooo difficult a choice to make. I am glad Dorsey is making this call. FYI - for all of those that think they know better than John, lets jut remember most of you didn't want Ward at 4 or Baker at all let alone 1. I think John has earned the right to make this hire with some of you sitting back and seeing how it plays out before you start crying. I have made it known I want Arians/Freddie or heck just give it to Freddie. But if John sees it differently, I trust his decision.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
So you can’t say Williams completely reshaped what was happening. It only looks that way I thought that was actually Funny...so he isn't really reshaping this team into a winning team, it only LOOKS THAT WAY... 
Kitchens apparently is that 10 year coach. The day he is being lured from this team as a possible HC, is the day we fire or ask Williams to resign and Kitchens takes over. Keeping in mind we have the son of Williams as our DC.
I know that big beginning was to try and say that our D interim HC is not what he appears to be because after all RAC wasn't...another funny insinuation.
The only 100% think I know from this. WE WILL NOT HIRE ROMEO CRENNEL AS OUR HC!
We get all the good in keeping all at status quo as it stands right now with possibly Greg Williams hiring a new ST coach.
DC and OC are set and both have been doing an excellent job. So that if we decide on Arians as the Interim HC until Kitchens is ready than so be it.
But as they said GW is 60 so that we are not looking at a long term making Kitchens the heir to be.
DePodesta being the HMIC??? really. Although I do think he is doing a lot more for this team than most Journalist give him credit for as they pretty much describe him as a lame duck of Sashi's regime. Which I thought from the get go Dorsey stated he was staying and he would head the analytics that Dorsey would like to use as a tool.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Its once again THE SITUATION for me ... The league is moving towards offense minded HC’s being paired with young QB’s ... there’s gonna be 2 or 3 of those opening up this year .... with us being the 3rd one yet TBD even though ours is he only one vacant right now .. *L* .... i think GW has a better shot of being retained here than Wills in Zona or Bowles in NY ... There’s also not a lot of “young” offensive minds out there ... think about it .... And even though he’s only been an OC for a few minutes he has 20 years of overall experience with 12 or 13 of those being in the NFL ... and he’s been BEYOND IMPRESSIVE ... he was a MAJOR FACTOR in a teams turnaround MID STREAM ... I HOPE i’m Wrong ... i just dont see it ... he’s gonna CRUSH THE INTERVIEW ... Watch and see ... like i said ... I really hope i’m Wrong ... my dream scenario is to bring in Arians and keep Fred as OC and get rid of GW all togehther ... I just dont see a scenario THIS YEAR with this set of CIRCUSTANCES where he isn’t one ... Dude has worked MIRACLES HERE ... he impressed Parcells enough for the tuna to hire him with zero nfl experience ... hes got to be an IMPRESSIVE INTERVIEW or that dont happen .. Another thing ... we put the associate HC tag on him for a reason last year ... HE’S ONOTHER TEAMS RADAR .... granted prolly for OC last year but he’s on OTHERS RADAR and now a heck of a lot more teams have there antennas out ... Hope u guys are right ...
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