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Well the way I learned it was that the fundamentals were more important than laying the big hit. You can still lay a big hit and tackle correctly. There is no excuse for not wrapping up and you will get more fumbles when you do. I would doubt Gregg would coach anything different. There is nothing to gain with an arm-less tackle.

Schobert is one of the best linebackers in coverage in the entire league. That is extremely valuable in a league that passes more than ever. Because of that, his tackling is not as big of an issue as someone like Collins who doesn't really do anything well.

It'll be interesting to see how the position is addressed in the off-season. Collins can be cut without much penalty (we would gain a little over $9 million in cap space). Kirksey is expensive and we can't save much if we cut/trade him. Many people on here don't seem to think Kirksey is very good.

A lot of what we will do depends on our defensive coordinator. My guess is that we'll go into next season with Kirksey and Schobert as our two starters with some different depth behind them.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

I think Elway said everything is on the table the other day in terms of improving the team i.e., trading Von.

Myles is like "hey Dorse, get it done".

Interesting, thanks

I appreciate the clarification.
I was in the same boat as Jester.

General reply regarding LBs...

If Williams stays, Schobert will have the opening day starting MLB role locked up, unless we somehow land Devin White in the draft. Wiliiams just loves Schobert.

I wonder if we've seen Kirksey's ceiling. I'm not in a hurry to replace him, but he does seem to get caught up in traffic/fail to shed blockers too often for me. I still like him, and he can be a solid piece of a great defense...probably just not one of its stars.

Collins...he seemed to have more heart playing for an 0-16 team than a competitive one. Bye.

C.J. Mosley, Anthony Barr among linebackers to watch: Browns' 2019 NFL free agency options
By Matt Goul, cleveland.com | Posted January 08, 2019 at 05:05 AM | Updated January 08, 2019 at 06:14 AM


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Baltimore exposed the Browns' issues at linebacker in Week 17 of the NFL season.
Coincidentally, the Ravens could be a source for improving the roster in that area this offseason.
Their contracts with linebackers Terrell Suggs and C.J. Mosley are up. If they hit the market, could the Browns be interested?

Following last week's look at the top 50 free agents and then some, here is a deeper dive into one of the Browns' positional needs: Linebacker.

The Browns are projected to have nearly $75 million in cap space, according to Spotrac.com, ranking them with the fourth-most available cash in the league. Only Indianapolis, the New York Jets and Buffalo are projected to have more.
Here are the best options at linebacker, ordered by how expensive they were in 2018 and starting with the cheapest:


L.J. Fort, Pittsburgh
Pro Football Focus rating: 74.2
2018 cap hit: $705,000
Age: 29 (entering the 2019 season)
Fort closed the season strong with eight tackles in Pittsburgh's win vs. Cincinnati. He posted a career-high 48 tackles. A backup linebacker, Fort's usage this season (306 snaps, two starts) was his most since his rookie season in 2012 with the Browns.

Preston Smith, Washington
PFF rating: 76.9
2018 cap hit: $1.8 million
Age: 26
Playing opposite Ryan Kerrigan in Washington, Smith had a more productive 2017 with eight sacks. He was on the field more in 2018, but less productive with four sacks in his 832 snaps.

Kwon Alexander, Tampa Bay LB
Jason Behnken, Associated Press
Kwon Alexander, Tampa Bay LB
PFF rating: 59.1
2018 cap hit: $2.0 million
Age: 25
The PFF ratings are not friendly for Alexander, but he appears to be higher on teams' radars for this offseason. That's if you believe ESPN Insider Field Yates, who included him among his top 25 free agents. Alexander tore his ACL vs. the Browns, landing him on injured reserve.

Jordan Hicks, Philadelphia
PFF rating: 75.6
2018 cap hit: $2.07 million
Age: 27
Hicks' rookie deal is up, but he has already landed twice on injured reserve in four years. He also had a medical redshirt in college while at Texas. Ohio football fans should remember Hicks from his high school playing days at Lakota West, when he was considered the state's top recruit and picked the Longhorns over the Buckeyes. His two trips to IR as a pro came because of a torn pectoral muscle in 2015 and Achilles injury in 2017. When healthy, he has been a force: 85 tackles in 2016 and 91 tackles with three sacks in 2018.


Shane Ray, Denver
PFF rating: 58.2
2018 cap hit: $2.9 million
Age: 26
Ray was scratched for the Broncos' mid-December matchup with the Browns in favor of rookie Jeff Holland, who made his debut. Denver also declined to pick up on its fifth-year option on the former first-round pick.

Lorenzo Alexander, Buffalo
PFF rating: 85.7
2018 cap hit: $3.6 million
Age: 36
An aging veteran, Alexander has graded well for several seasons -- even after posting just three sacks but with 70 tackles in 2017 (he also forced three fumbles that year). Alexander posted 12.5 sacks two years ago in his first season with Buffalo. He enters free agency after a 6.5-sack effort in 2018. Alexander expressed a desire to return to the Bills for 2019.

Thomas Davis, Carolina
PFF rating: 74.2
2018 cap hit: $3.9 million
Age: 36
Davis has spent his entire 14-year career in Carolina and endured career-threatening injuries. He told the Charlotte Observer he wants to return for a 15th season.

Terrell Suggs, Baltimore
PFF rating: 71.6
2018 cap hit: $6.95 million
Age: 36
Suggs has played more games than any player in Ravens history. Like Julius Peppers with Carolina, he is one of the NFL's all-time leaders in sacks with 132.5.
K.J. Wright, Seattle
PFF rating: 70.2
2018 cap hit: $8.2 million
Age: 30
Wright played only five regular-season games in 2018 after four straight years of 100 tackles. He had arthroscopic knee surgery in August.


C.J. Mosley has been a thorn in the Browns' side for some time. Here he celebrates his winning interception in 2016 -- not Week 17 this season -- at FirstEnergy Stadium. (John Kuntz, cleveland.com)
C.J. Mosley, Baltimore
PFF rating: 70.1
2018 cap hit: $8.7 million
Age: 27
The Browns' season ended with Mosley intercepting Baker Mayfield on their final possession. He has made four Pro Bowls in five seasons.
Clay Matthews, Green Bay
PFF rating: 63.9
2018 cap hit: $11.3 million
Age: 33
The Packers appear ready to move on from Matthews, ready to rebuild with a new coach around All-Pro quarterback Aaron Rodgers. Matthews has not had a double-digit sack season since 2014.


Anthony Barr, Minnesota
PFF rating: 71.4
2018 cap hit: $12.3 million
Age: 27
A disruptive and former first-round pick out of UCLA, Barr could be a fit for the Browns at outside linebacker. Considering the Vikings will not have much cap room, he should be available. It's also worth noting, Barr's PFF rating dropped about four points in the final week of the season. He is the No. 25-rated linebacker by PFF and fifth among free-agent linebackers who played considerable snaps.


https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/ubb/newreply/Board/1/Number/1580939/what/showflat/fpart/9

Not a very inspiring list. I like the Bill's Alexander but at 36, you wonder how much gas is left in the tank...

I was thinking the same thing when I read that article

i rather get the LB via draft. Alot of defense in this draft. I wouldn't mind richardson, garrett or suh in FA though

We also have a QB question...

Tyrod is definitely leaving if there's a starting role in it for him. I'm just not seeing one. Jags maybe? They're drafting a QB top10, but they may not want to play him immediately. I don't even see teams with QBs they've lost faith in giving Tyrod a chance. If Denver, Cinci, Miami want to move on, they're going for Foles or Bridgewater.

So that means Tyrod is officially in the back-up stage of his career. Does he want to stay here? Do we want him to? Sadly, with a coaching change in the works, I could see us letting him go. And I think he might go back to Baltimore, where he gets on the field if/when Jackson proves to be a gimmick.

I personally would push to keep him, because of his character, ability to win games should we need him, and really, who else is there for our backup role? Stanton is great as an advisor, nothing more.

I don't think Taylor brings any value. From all accounts, he kept his head down and did as asked, but he didn't go out of his way to help baker. That was all Stanton. I see Stanton getting elevated to backup and us picking up a 3rd string in the late rounds

If we pursue an OLB in free agency, the player we pursue will depend on the defense we run under the new coach.

I know I beat this drum all the time, but we need to stop discussing linebackers in the context of base defense. There is no “OLB” when you play only two linebackers 70% of the time.

I certainly don't disagree with your point there, however, when I think of 3-4 vs 4-3 I think of the TYPE of player we draft/recruit...not how they will line up.

ie. Not every 3-4 DT fits in a 4-3 scheme...same with LBs.

LJ Fort huh?

It is also more complicated than that.

Within each defense is a specific style for each position.

Back in the Ray Lewis heyday, when Baltimore was running more of a 4-3 alignment (some years hey ran a 3-4) they wanted big stout DT's to kep the o-linemen off of Ray.

GW wants a penetrating tackle like Aaron Darnold.

Pettine didn't feel the need for Cb's to be good in run support whereas GW wants that.

I certainly agree. And that will greatly set the tone for the type of players you draft and sign in free agency.

I miss McCown...

IDk, but I would equate that to a coaching issue no?

I never played enough football to be able to say definitively about tackling, but extrapolating from the sports I did play, I would say no.

You can learn al the right techniques and know what angles you should take. But if you cannot judge the other player's speed in relation to your own speed then you will not be in the right position to make the tackle. Come down to geometry. If you misjudge those speeds you might take a 45 degree pursuit angle when you should be taking a 60 degree pursuit angle.

It's not a coaching issue. Hell, middle school coaches can teach proper angles and techniques.

"The biggest half of tackling is wanting to." We have some folks do not want serious contact.

Draft us some tacklers, and teach Ward to do it right.

So then why has taken peppers two years to learn how to do so, if he learned in middle school?

Why did our defense constantly take bad angles, over and over again?

Gregg was known for trying to take heads off players, which would leave a player vulnerable for a missed tackle here an there - which we saw all the time.

Same is said of playing D in the NBA. I think it's important to have coaches that make them want to... or else.

I haven't replied to you in months, but if you are really looking for an answer, I will oblige because I think it would help educate others who read the board. However, if you are just looking to fight like you usually do, then I will slip back into the shadows. Let me know.

Go ahead, don't wait.

*cough* *cough* Jaime Collins...

Didn't ask me, but I would be interested in an answer.

I've seen nothing since Williams became a part of the Browns organization that backs this claim.

See the Ward situation, and how he tried to coach Ward. Williams wanted sound tackling that allows his players to protect their bodies.

He was suspened and fined in the past for this.

I constantly saw guys trying to lay a big hit, rather than wrapping up and finishing a tackle. Maybe that's why we had two players on def in the top 5 of missed tackles. JMO

This is something that requires constant reinforcement moving forward. I love the tenacity, I love the desire to lay the wood and floor someone on a big hit, but it was leading to too many missed tackles.

That's one thing I want to see in 2019: Throughout camp and the preseason, the coaches need to lose their minds for anyone who isn't wrapping up and making solid tackles. Beat that into their brains non-stop.

Love Ray as a player ... he’s always hurt though ...

He’s real good ...

CAN’T WAIT TO SEE how this plays out ...

FINALLY EXCITED TO SEE WHAT WE DO as opposed to the last 20 years of BEING BUMMED about wondering how we were gonna blow it ...

This is much better ...

Laying a big hit has nothing to do with poor tackling. Making a dirty hit does however.

I don't think we had that problem. The biggest problem we had at most positions was a lack of squaring up before the tackle. Our DB's are also like most NFL DB's and either hitting too high or nosediving without wrapping up.Somewhere along the line these guys forget the fundamentals.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26115532/raiders-3-most-interested-ab

Raiders, Titans, and Washington showing most interest the Antonio Brown.

The Raiders trading for Brown after all the moves they made last off-season would be hilarious.

Eo, do you want Metcalf? Saw him today and he impressed me. Big target!