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The difference is with a guy like Myles Garrett and all of our DLine, and most of our linebackers. Body types, sizes, and how they are used. That's the difference. We have to change out our DT's and probably our DE's now. We are also - for sure - investing heavily in LB's.
Also, rather than using Myles as a rushing DE, he will now be an OLB and asked to cover a LOT more.
I'm aware that some folks are going to say it's no big deal, but I'm not buying it. It *is* a big deal.
This is just not true. Just watch Wade Phillips defense the year after Gregg Williams was there. He went from a 4-3, with Gregg Williams’ players, to 3-4. Not much changed.
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Thats fair ... i get it ... What has KJ or Freddie done that leads u to believe there LIKE ANY OF THE MORONS IN THE PAST .... seriously ... Please answer that question ... So far KJ or Freddie have done NOTHING that shows me there GOING TO OUTTHINK THEMSELVES ... they haven’t done a thing that leads me to believe there gonna do things to prove there the smartest men in the room .... They seem like KISS people to me ... Keep It Simple Stupid ... IMO one of the things that seperate s Billicheck from everyone else is he DOESN’T OUTTHINK HIMSELF .... EVER ... so far I have not seen one thing that leads me to believe KJ is not cut from the same cloth ... nor has Freddie ... Fred took the talent we had on O and UTILIZED THE HELL OUT OF IT ... Sorry guys ... your going to have to get used to HAVING COMPETENT LEADERSHIP ... i know its gonna be rough but you’ll eventually get there ..  ... AGAIN ... THIS IS DIFFERENT ... 
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Appreciate the kind words.
For the record, I think the ideal coach would be a scheme-diverse mind that wouldn’t have to force an odd front on Dorsey or Kitchens. I suspect that Dorsey and Kitchens will pick their brain for preferences and potential personnel usages. If someone plans to drop Myles Garrett into coverage for a substantial amount of snaps, then I hope they’re eliminated from consideration. But hiring Kitchens was a long-term decision. Keeping that long-term thinking in mind, it’s possible they’re most comfortable with a coach that brings a 3-4 base. And, if that happens, I’m simply stating that it wouldn’t be cause for concern when it comes to the competence of Dorsey or Kitchens. Nor would it mean massive front-seven upheaval.
To elaborate on the percentages:
Even if we use a 3-4 base on 40% of total snaps, it’s certainly possible that Myles Garrett rushes the passer 95% of that time in those situations. Which, when combined with the sub-package snaps where Myles is almost exclusively rushing the passer, equates to him rushing the passer approximately 98% of the time.
The biggest difference for Myles would be rushing out of a two-point stance versus a three-point stance and he’s already got some experience in a two-point stance.
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I think the execution of plays are more important Kitchens was able to take our Playbook and stretch the field Vertical and horizontal...he will have a big big say in Game plan and in execution of said game plan...having another call the plays that are mapped out on when how and where to use...is not a big deal. Execution is the reason our Offense was as great as it became and the proper usage of our personnel, especially the QB.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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IMO one of the things that seperate s Billicheck from everyone else is he DOESN’T OUTTHINK HIMSELF .... EVER ... I'll remember this when we go for it on 4th down inside our own 20 and you say we're overthinking things and should punt.
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I don't think PPE was suggesting we do those things. He was stating what would have to happen if we switched to a 3-4...actually in his explanation I would have to say he is dead set against it.
We got talent but not completed so the switch to 3-4 would not be devastating...If Garrett just does not fit we trade him to like Jaguars for their first and 2nd round pick...we can become a great team with the talent we have and can get to become great in any Defensive base as long as we got a EXCELLENT coach in gaining EXECUTION of said system...the round pegs in squaree holes will be utilized in what they do best or traded out of our system with Great return!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Hey I'm just preparing myself just in case we go in that direction...I don't want to sit down and feel we are cursed an all that crap. We can make lemonade with ANYTHING, we have so much practice at it... lol 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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so....
With an awesome offense do you want Gregg Williams ball-hawking defense? Or do you want a defense that can hold the offense from scoring, less yards, etc.?
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so....
With an awesome offense do you want Gregg Williams ball-hawking defense? Or do you want a defense that can hold the offense from scoring, less yards, etc.?
Hmmm... BOTH.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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so....
With an awesome offense do you want Gregg Williams ball-hawking defense? Or do you want a defense that can hold the offense from scoring, less yards, etc.?
Turnovers, and defenses, regress to the mean every year. It is hard to predict what a defense will/won’t be from year to year. But if forced to choose between the two, I choose the turnover defense. Getting the ball to an explosive offense is the best thing to do. In the modern NFL good offenses are going to be able to gain yards, basically, no matter what. Getting off the field on third down and not allowing TDs in the red zone is more important than ever. I’m just not sure any of the above are repeatable skills.
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Agree ... execution is always key ...
Fred put in an O that FIT THE PLAYERS SKILLS witch makes it a hell of a lot easier to EXECUTE THE PLAYS CALLED ...
Its a chicken and an egg thing ... i RESPECT your opinion on these things as i do Ver’s .. u guys know this aspect way better than i do (its a shame u GIVE ME ZERO RESPECT when it comes to officiating .. kinda STUPID actually) ... so i take your word on things ...
I will however ask questions as opposed to tell u i know it all ...
In this case .. my question is ...
Do u believe the plays called have a major or minor affect on how well the execution goes? ...
Vers? ....
What am i missing here guys ... you’ve convinced me that i have overrated play calling to at least some extent cause i trust u guys based off your experience and you’ve proven to know this stuff ...
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IMO one of the things that seperate s Billicheck from everyone else is he DOESN’T OUTTHINK HIMSELF .... EVER ... I'll remember this when we go for it on 4th down inside our own 20 and you say we're overthinking things and should punt. I didnt say he was perfect ... i think hes a HARD HEADED MORON for playing his starters in week 17 meaningless games ... he plays them for the entire damm game ... One year the MORON when it comes to this lost Walker i believe .. may have been Edelman .. can’t remember .. but he LOST a huge piece of his O in a maenangless ass game ... Also think hes a bafoon for “punishing” Butler in last years SB .. HORRIBLE TIME TO PROVE A POINT ... who did he ACTUALLY PUNISH by doing that ... I’d call him a MORON just like i did Williams if he goes for it in that situation ... He’ll go for it in the 1st half of a game next year from the 20 and your gonna call me out EVEN THOUGH THE SITUATIONS WERE NIGHT AND DAY ...  ... And u know u will ...
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The difference is with a guy like Myles Garrett and all of our DLine, and most of our linebackers. Body types, sizes, and how they are used. That's the difference. We have to change out our DT's and probably our DE's now. We are also - for sure - investing heavily in LB's.
Also, rather than using Myles as a rushing DE, he will now be an OLB and asked to cover a LOT more.
I'm aware that some folks are going to say it's no big deal, but I'm not buying it. It *is* a big deal.
This is just not true. Just watch Wade Phillips defense the year after Gregg Williams was there. He went from a 4-3, with Gregg Williams’ players, to 3-4. Not much changed. You do realize that this depends upon having the personnel to pull it off, right? Not all players - actually most players - are not so interchangeable. Niolen - your comment about Avery actually has me wondering if Dorsey wasn't drafting with an eye toward this shift last year. And, yes, the primary concern of mine is with the upper-tier players and whether or not the shift lends to dampening their impact. It is a change we've seen WAY too much here in Cleveland already in past years (thinking specifically of a three year stretch where we switched to a 3-4, then to a 4-3, then to a 3-4 again). Yes, your premier/star players can survive the switches relatively well, but as you've noted and I've attempted to highlight, it causes a LOT of turnover pretty much everywhere else along roster and a lot of that ends up being your depth, your role players, and subsequently your Special Teamers. When you keep changing what you're asking of players, they never get to settle into anything well enough to really start to excel. They spend half the season thinking more than just playing. Is it a disastrous switch? Of course not - it's just football. That said, at some point we, as a franchise, need to stop making gigantic sweeping changes and start setting foundations that aren't going to cause us to turnover more of the roster just to fit some philosophical bent on how to play simply because the guy coming in doesn't want to, or is incapable of, continiung us on the trajectory we've already established.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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not a big fan of switching to 3-4 we have no nt
no 3-4 de
and are linebacking core is are weakest unit
then you would have to trade myles and o
this all ads up to a 6 win season
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If the Browns switch to a 3-4 they are morons.
Myles Garret is the CORNERSTONE of this Defense, the Entire D MUST be built around him, he is the #1 overall pick in the draft, he is the highest DE taken in the NFL draft since Bruce Smith in 1985, and Garret racked up 14 sacks as a 4-3 DE in his first full year (2nd season).
Myles Garret is a 4-3 De he is NOT a tweener, he is not an OLB, and he isn't a coverage LB..he is a DE and DE put their hands in the dirt and push the line or rusher the passer. 3-4 DE are not rushers, they are lane cloggers, they open things for linebackers, Garret does not fit a 3-4 scheme.
Our Corners and safeties are also 4-3 guys...the 3-4 requires different kinds of DB's...particularly ones good at Bump and Run and Man to Man which ours (including Ward) is not suited. The Browns played mostly Zone this year and Ward had a huge year, our whole secondary played well...it would be beyond stupid to change to a 3-4.
our 4-3 D is 2-3 pieces away from being elite and folks want to throw that away? if we switch to a 3-4 we will have to replace 70?% of the Defense...Schobert is a Pro Bowl level 4-3 LB but he doesn't fit the 3-4 at all...
I can't see Dorsey throwing away a mostly complete 4-3 defense and starting all over again on that side of the ball...we just need to not get cute and hire a 4-3 coordinator...
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so your saying myles garrette best position is a 3-4 de
Last edited by jacksondawg; 01/11/19 01:21 PM.
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IMO one of the things that seperate s Billicheck from everyone else is he DOESN’T OUTTHINK HIMSELF .... EVER ... I'll remember this when we go for it on 4th down inside our own 20 and you say we're overthinking things and should punt. I didnt say he was perfect ... i think hes a HARD HEADED MORON for playing his starters in week 17 meaningless games ... he plays them for the entire damm game ... One year the MORON when it comes to this lost Walker i believe .. may have been Edelman .. can’t remember .. but he LOST a huge piece of his O in a maenangless ass game ... Also think hes a bafoon for “punishing” Butler in last years SB .. HORRIBLE TIME TO PROVE A POINT ... who did he ACTUALLY PUNISH by doing that ... I’d call him a MORON just like i did Williams if he goes for it in that situation ... He’ll go for it in the 1st half of a game next year from the 20 and your gonna call me out EVEN THOUGH THE SITUATIONS WERE NIGHT AND DAY ... ... And u know u will ... Well, I do believe you were one who said we should have kicked the FG and give the ball back to the opponent instead of going for it on 4th and 1 in an attempt to end the game. Each his own.
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Do u believe the plays called have a major or minor affect on how well the execution goes? ... You didn't ask me, but I'll throw my $0.02 worth in anyway .... just cuz I can. I think that plays that work to your players strengths are vital. If you have a RT, for example, who is slow of foot ... then calling for him to pull is idiotic, and won't work. If your Center is being blown up on every play, then having your shorter than standard QB stand in the center of the pocket is unwise. If your RB is a plodder, but who can get you 3.5 yards up the gut consistently, then running him outside just isn't going to work. I think that a player in a bad play call, one to which he is ill suited, can beat himself mentally before he starts. Conversely, a player in a play call in which he is comfortable and confident, is more likely to perform to the top of his ability. There is a reason why kickers kick, QBs pass, and RBs run. They are well suited to certain roles, and types of plays. The coaches need to understand what their players can, and cannot do ..... and part of that process is actually talking to them about what they are most comfortable with, and what they see on the field. (either during film study, or preferably, immediately during the game)I think that this is a weakness of some of the "top" coordinators ..... that they have such overwhelming talent on the teams they coordinate that they can call plays and they just out-talent the other team. They don't have to worry about creating he mis-matches that a weaker team does ...... and a team that would hire them would probably be a weaker team, that just fired their previous coach. Coaches succeed when they can adapt their schemes to the talent they have, as opposed to trying to force their talent into roles in which they either cannot perform, or feel extremely uncomfortable doing so. Schemes are a base ... or should be. Plays need to be suited to the players on the field. Edit to add: Bill Belichick, one of the most successful head coaches of all time, has run more schemes in New England than I can count. He works to create mismatches, and it doesn't matter is his defense is a 4-3, 3-4, 2-5, 1-6 ...... or whatever. He matches his schemes to his talent, rather than forcing square pegs into round holes.
Last edited by YTownBrownsFan; 01/11/19 02:14 PM.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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There were comments from the owner of the cardinals that Wilks made a mistake in changing the defensive schemes as he did. That concerns me. I think that he's a very good defensive coach, especially in the secondary, but as coordinator, well. I just don't know.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Cardinals owner was looking for reasons to fire Steve Wilks.
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I actually led the CRUSADE ... I was cause it was STUPID IN THAT SITUATION ... Key word .... SITUATION ...
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The Cardinals owner was looking for reasons to fire Steve Wilks. I think that 3-13, with a defense that ranked last in rushing yards allowed, (2479, and 4.9 yards per rush) last in rushing TD allowed, (25) last in rushing 1st downs allowed, 2nd worst in INT ....... They had decent numbers in pass defense, probably because they were so inept against the run, and so inept offensively, that teams just ran them into the ground.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Do u believe the plays called have a major or minor affect on how well the execution goes? ... You didn't ask me, but I'll throw my $0.02 worth in anyway .... just cuz I can. I think that plays that work to your players strengths are vital. If you have a RT, for example, who is slow of foot ... then calling for him to pull is idiotic, and won't work. If your Center is being blown up on every play, then having your shorter than standard QB stand in the center of the pocket is unwise. If your RB is a plodder, but who can get you 3.5 yards up the gut consistently, then running him outside just isn't going to work. I think that a player in a bad play call, one to which he is ill suited, can beat himself mentally before he starts. Conversely, a player in a play call in which he is comfortable and confident, is more likely to perform to the top of his ability. There is a reason why kickers kick, QBs pass, and RBs run. They are well suited to certain roles, and types of plays. The coaches need to understand what their players can, and cannot do ..... and part of that process is actually talking to them about what they are most comfortable with, and what they see on the field. (either during film study, or preferably, immediately during the game)I think that this is a weakness of some of the "top" coordinators ..... that they have such overwhelming talent on the teams they coordinate that they can call plays and they just out-talent the other team. They don't have to worry about creating he mis-matches that a weaker team does ...... and a team that would hire them would probably be a weaker team, that just fired their previous coach. Coaches succeed when they can adapt their schemes to the talent they have, as opposed to trying to force their talent into roles in which they either cannot perform, or feel extremely uncomfortable doing so. Schemes are a base ... or should be. Plays need to be suited to the players on the field. Edit to add: Bill Belichick, one of the most successful head coaches of all time, has run more schemes in New England than I can count. He works to create mismatches, and it doesn't matter is his defense is a 4-3, 3-4, 2-5, 1-6 ...... or whatever. He matches his schemes to his talent, rather than forcing square pegs into round holes. Great post Y-Town. And that just takes into account a play-by-play advantage during the course of a game. Stretch that over possessions, games and the course of a season, and you see the difference between players playing with confidence and teams taking the field like they're already beaten. I would dare to say THAT is the biggest difference we saw in the second half of 2018.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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The difference is with a guy like Myles Garrett and all of our DLine, and most of our linebackers. Body types, sizes, and how they are used. That's the difference. We have to change out our DT's and probably our DE's now. We are also - for sure - investing heavily in LB's.
Also, rather than using Myles as a rushing DE, he will now be an OLB and asked to cover a LOT more.
I'm aware that some folks are going to say it's no big deal, but I'm not buying it. It *is* a big deal.
This is just not true. Just watch Wade Phillips defense the year after Gregg Williams was there. He went from a 4-3, with Gregg Williams’ players, to 3-4. Not much changed. Excuse me, but Wade Phillips could trot the cheerleaders out there and have a top 5 defense. What matters more is than 3-4 or 4-3 is the type of Defense. We are built to be aggressive and confusing. We are undersized but use our speed to confuse the offense and swarm to the play. Any DC wanting a bunch of 2 gap responsibilities or a read and react style will probably fail.
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Steve Wilkes perfect fit.
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Maybe you have not seen the rams this year.
Maybe he is running out the Embraceable Ewes on D.
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Steve Wilkes perfect fit. Carolina Wilks yes. Arizona Wilks no. Arizona Wilks ran a dime defense against 11 personnel when down by 40 points.
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Good luck. First year HC again, 
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The difference is with a guy like Myles Garrett and all of our DLine, and most of our linebackers. Body types, sizes, and how they are used. That's the difference. We have to change out our DT's and probably our DE's now. We are also - for sure - investing heavily in LB's.
Also, rather than using Myles as a rushing DE, he will now be an OLB and asked to cover a LOT more.
I'm aware that some folks are going to say it's no big deal, but I'm not buying it. It *is* a big deal.
I don’t understand .... seriously ... That would be MORONIC .... what has King John done since he’s been here that leads u to believe he would do something SO STUPID? ... seriously .... WHY would he do that or allow Freddie to do it ... and why would Freddie wanna do it? ... What is it that makes u think for a second either of those guys would HIRE SOMEONE that wants to UNDER UTILIZE our talent and make us a less affective football team ... Was it when King John went and hired Freddie a decision that will give our rookie QB a chance to shine ... was it when Freddie built an O around THE TALENT HE had at his disposal as opposed to cramming an O down there throats that didn’t FIT THE TALENT ... I just don’t get it ... U guys are still living in the past ,.... WE HAVE REAL FOOTBALL PEOPLE running the show now ... No more Hue/Haley ... no more Sashi ... the thief has even backed the hell off ... Why would KJ allow something so INCOMPETENT to happen .. he’s not Sashi ... THANK GOD ... Then why are they interviewing so many 3-4 guys for the DC position? If we switch that is EXACTLY what happens. The entire D aside from the secondary gets blown up. We have to find a big fat guy for the nose. We have to dump Larry and a few others at DT, we have to move Garrett to OLB(I'd prefer to trade him and get a #1 because he isn't a linebacker), and we have to draft or sign a crapton of 3-4 centric linebackers. Then they ALL have to learn a brand new scheme. Usually, a complicated one that take a couple years to get going. THAT is what hiring a 3-4 guy means and they have been interviewing more than one of them. So you tell me, man, if it is so moronic to completely blow up the D, why have they been looking at 3-4 coaches for DC?
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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"Edit to add: Bill Belichick, one of the most successful head coaches of all time, has run more schemes in New England than I can count. He works to create mismatches, and it doesn't matter is his defense is a 4-3, 3-4, 2-5, 1-6 ...... or whatever. He matches his schemes to his talent, rather than forcing square pegs into round holes."
Great, hire Bill Belichick as our DC. Until that happens it's irrelevant what Bill does in NE. Bill is Bill. NO ONE ELSE IS LIKE HIM. After all the many supposed disciples coming from NE have failed miserably haven't we learned that yet? What he does can't be replicated. But hey, I am ALL for blowing up the D and going back to a 3-4 yet again. It's been SO bloody effective for us in the past. 4 years of Romeo... a Belichick guy and our D was SO devastating... *snicker* Then two years under Mangini. Man it doesn't get better than that D. That was glorious to watch. lmao How many defensive ends have we tried to turn into OLB's since the return? Did ANY of them work out? So yeah, lets do that crap again. I haven't seen enough of that...
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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Some people don't want to talk about this, but it's a worthwhile conversation and it sure beats the crap about the past. I am not an expert on this, but I probably know more about defensive schemes and personnel than some guys who are saying they do. Number one: I am almost positive I was the first guy to post the stats on how often teams were not in their base defense. This occurred when we were discussing the draft and people were telling me that Bosa could never play in our defense. Thus, I don't put as much importance into the base defense as some. That is because teams typically play it only a third of the time. The Browns were an outlier in 2017 when they played their base defense 2/3 of the time. I believe that was mostly due to how terrible our secondary was that year. Number two: I disagree w/those that say it's virtually irrelevant what your base defense is. Let's use an analogy. Let's say that you challenge someone by making a brazen statement. Nothing happens most of the time, but 1 out of 3 times you get punched right in the kisser. Are you going to continue to talk like that? Hell no. It's dumb to put yourself in a position that isn't consistently putting your players in their best light. Number 3: The Rams defense stinks and gets gashed on the ground. And they spent a ton of money upgrading that defense. They are a terrible example. Number 4: Scheme to fit your talent rather than ask your talent to fit the scheme. Finally: It's not a gigantic deal, but it is certainly worth talking about. It bothers me that some folks want to discourage true "football conversation." We have seen these schematic changes influence our play on the field and personnel decisions for years. The trend to play less base defense is not new. It's been going on for years. I even posted an article that contained a chart that proves that to be true. Thus, I think it would behoove the Browns to stay in a base 4-3, but also run some hybrid defenses that allows them to switch to different fronts and coverages, just as they did w/GW.
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,796
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,796 |
Was listening to Zegura on the radio, and they were talking about the 4-3, 3-4 argument, and they were saying that Williams ran 3-4 concepts 40% of the time. They mentioned that the old 3-4,4-3 base defenses are a thing of the past and that the personnel we have could pull it off. Don't know if this is true, but I've heard others say the days of the base 3-4 4-3 defense are a thing of the past.
RIP, Jim
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Larry Ogunjobi lacks the desired arm length but compensates by exploding into blockers before they can get their hands onto him. If it’s a one-gap 3-4, it’s not a deal-breaker.
Where will Ogunjobi be playing?
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
So cause a DC ran 3 - 4’s D since he;s become an OC means here always gonna run 3 - 4” cause there INCAPABLE OF ADAPTING ....  I notice u didnt answer my question ... WHY’S THAT? ... casue its to hard? ... Looks like its Wilks ... he is a 3- 4 or a 4 - 3 guy? ...more importantly .. WHAT WILL HIS BASE D BE HERE .... Steve Wilks - C - Free Agent NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Browns are working on a deal to hire ex-Cardinals coach Steve Wilks as their defensive coordinator. Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter Jan 11 - 7:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
I think for most its 3 man front vs 4 and they don't really give a damn about what's played behind them. I prefer 4 or 5 over 3.
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,796
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,796 |
I would have to believe that Dorsey is not interested in a guy who wants to turn over the roster to fit his "scheme". I also believe that a good defensive coach would understand the personnel and run the defense that suits them best. At least that's what I hope.
RIP, Jim
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Thanks ... good stuff as usual ..... makes sense ... running the passer alone has to be a big difference as a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 DE or OLB ... is that a bad ASSumption ....
Thanks again but that wasn’t the question i asked .. *L* ..
Want to know about the O side of the ball in regards to the play calling/execution question i asked ... if u would ...
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