DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus The Wall. An Honest Discussion.

Then do us all a favor and look at what it is they did vote for? You'll find the politifact information is factual. The Democrats agreed that "certain parts" of the border needed a barrier. As such, they voted for it and funded it. Most of that is currently in place. If it wasn't approved and funded, how did it get there?

But you failed to address most every point and question I made in the OP?

How much border wall does Trump intend to build? Will this be the first government shut down of many to continue building more of the wall? (fence)

Last year congress offered him 20 of the 25 billion he wanted to fund a wall but wanted DACA as a part of the deal. Trump refused to sign it. Since you wish to bring up not negotiating in good faith, well there you have it.

Trump wants what he wants without negotiating. Give me what I want or else. In case you missedd it, that's not negotiating.

Good discussion.


I don't think the wall means a 3 foot think, tall block of concrete end to end.


The border is roughly 2,000 miles long.



How many of those miles are actually crossable? I don't know, but know a lot aren't exactly places you would want to enter.

Build the wall, the fence, whatever you want to call it at the know entry points, and expand from there.

Start by eliminating the easy access points. The more area we can eliminate easy access, the easier it is for border patrol to monitor the other areas.

Patrols on horseback, Jeeps, or the use of drones can be considered a wall.

There are many places along the border where it might be 80 miles before you find a road or town. Nobody wants to enter that death trap as a first choice. That is a last choice.


Eliminate the good choices, then see where the next bad choices are and eliminate those.


They will stop entering when your chances of croaking in the desert are a good possibility.

The wall is stupid, period. But like I said earlier, give it to the scared GOPers and get a TON of liberal agenda things in exchange.

Easier to keep patrol boats and some on land there then all of the other.

I love how you all can interpret exactly what trump meant when he said he would build a big beautiful wall all along the southern border and Mexico would pay for it. Now it’s not a wall and it isn’t all along the entire border, and Mexico isn’t going to pay for it. Lies lies lies. All lies.

The people who work on border security think the wall is an absolute necessity...you know...the people who are actually THERE. Like Obama's last Border Security Chief who was ousted by Trump:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...m=.3025c50a5943

So it was moral and just back then? But not now. It was necessary then, but not now? Politifact is opining over 'he-said she-said' BS. They are NOT opining on the need for the barrier...in neither 2006 nor 2019. I don't put much faith into a "Fact Check" website that is telling me what politicians said or didn't "REALLY" say...now or in the past. Things have changed a little since 2006. Is the barrier necessary or not? That's what I hope to discuss.



I didn't realize that my response MUST go point-by-point to your OP. You asked for an honest discussion. I am working through that. Then the typical TDS sufferers bloviate about Trump being a racist or - my favy - Hitler in a suit. Honest discussion?



I don't know. I've not seen the parameters of any negotiation. I won't get to vote on it in any event.



DACA isn't law. It's a policy. DACA is on Obama's head. He could have fixed it. Did Congress put forth DACA legislation during the negotiations last year? If they did, I missed it.



That's just patently ridiculous. He's the POTUS...he doesn't make law...that's up to Congress. They have to come up with something he is willing to sign...not the other way around. It's been that way since the founding of the country.

If that is all you gleaned from Peen's post then you missed the point entirely.

Yes, you missed it. Even though I posted it. With a link. He was offered 20 billion of the 25 billion he was requesting at that time for his wall if he would sign off on DACA. He refused.



You just contradicted yourself. He doesn't make laws but nothing will become law if he won't sign it. Somehow you seem to think those are two different things. When a president tells them to create the law he wants or he will keep the government shut down, he's dictating what the law will be. He's telling them to write the law he wants.

I'm always shocked when I encounter things like this. It was all over the news for weeks at the time, and yet an unbelievable number of people never knew it happened. Where are these people (not) getting their news?

Truly head-scratching.

I don't believe it does either but it would certainly be nice to see the entire plan rather than just not have a clue about it.



I agree that there are far more vulnerable areas than others along the border. I think we are in total agreement that those areas need to be addressed with a barrier. I simply can't call it a wall since the "latest proposal" is actually a fence.

However, I really wish people would stop with all of the BS about Democrats being for open borders. Actually both parties are for border security. It's just that the Dems wish to use the approach of drones and other methods than a wall. There is currently over 700 miles of border wall existing and the two sides are only arguing over if more wall is needed.

So while I think we both agree that more is needed, I think all of the propaganda and mud slinging is wrong from both sides.



Once again I think we are pretty much in agreement here. But all of this to me brings up far more questions than it does answers.

Just last year Trump requested 25 billion in funding for the wall. He turned down 20 million that was offered to him in exchange for extending DACA.

Now, he's only requesting 5.7 billion for 215 miles of wall but wishes not to negotiate to give up anything in return. But my question is, how did 25 billion turn into 5.7 billion? I mean if the goal is actually 25 billion, will this government shut down thing happen every time a new budget come up for more funding?

I guess the bottom line to all of this is I'd like to see an actual plan. The actual end goal to all of this. Where a wall will be built and the reasoning behind where it will be built. I've never agreed to a contract or a purchase without seeing what the project entails and what the final outcome is that's desired. I mean would you approve of a perimeter on your property where the price had changed from $100,000 to $20,000 with no contract and a contractor only telling you, "We're going to build a fence"?

They say the devil is in the details and I believe Trump is doing himself, the Republican party and our nation a disservice by not giving the American people a plan and an end goal so we all know what it is they are actually agreeing to or disagreeing with. As of now it appears far more of a political talking point than an actual plan.

I for one ignore most news, it is all one sided, and often the stories are slanted to get a rise out of one group or another.

If it is a big enough story, it will transverse into the public , and I will hear about it then research if it is something that pertains to me or my life.

But in general, politics in America is a giant pile of horse dung that brings out the worst in people, and creates way too much divide amongst the population.

thats no excuse to being uninformed.

And this is why I opened up this discussion. Since it seems nobody in politics or the media wishes to have an open and honest discussion, I think it's past time we take it upon ourselves to have one.

That is part of why I read this forum. While many of the replies are heavily slanted, there are always some that have a hint of maturity and honesty behind them, along with links to research.

It sure beats sitting in front of a TV wading through the muck.

then you're missing out on a lot of hot women on TV.

it sucks cause i hate fox news, but they have the hottest women in media and it ain't close.

I can get my fix on the local news girl, we have some hotties down here.

As a general rule, old white guys are more easily led around by the nose by pretty blondes. I had that problem when I was younger, but I outgrew it.

maybe, but i think in today's world, old white guys are diversifying.

last summer, i saw this old white sugar daddy with some FINE ass black chick that was maybe 24-25. Equal opportunity and all that. Thats why Harris Faulker's fine self is still on fox news.

Well yes, you'll have your outliers.

Maybe it's because they listen to stations that never report anything negative about Trump... Could be that I guess

Hey, I resemble that remark

There is a cure for that, sure has opened up my eyes.

I have an app for my Iphone called Smartnews. Everything in on there.. Fox, MSNBC, CNN NPR, ABC, NBC, CBS etc etc. and you can add news feeds if you want. that way you won't miss much but can blast past things that are clearly BS.

Also, it has some pretty good sports coverage. So for me, it's the best of both worlds.

I remember that the Dems offered up $$$ in exchange for DACA. However, I don't ever recall there being a bill that was presented to Congress for a vote. Can you enlighten me?

Do you understand how it is that we even HAVE DACA? If it is/was such a great thing, why didn't Obama make it a law under his watch? Now, Trump is the bad guy for not making the previous POTUS' memorandum a law? Please.

Here's the point. Chuck & Nancy are against the wall for the following reasons:

It is immoral.

It is unjust.

It doesn't work.

It's too expensive.

Then...when people say, "But you voted for it before." They pivot to say it's a manufactured crisis.

So...it WAS moral and just and worked and wasn't too costly in 2006 but it is in 2019? And at 1/4th of what they were reportedly willing to spend on it last year? That is the entire and ONLY reason why I stated - again and again - that "they voted for it before". Their stance is a load of BS. I don't need any news outlet to tell me what they are really doing here.

So...they are left with claiming the issue is a "Manufactured Crisis". Ok...let's research THAT. As I have said time and time again...do YOU think there is a real crisis? THAT is what you asked for in your OP. An honest discussion of the wall/barrier/fence. From what I research, there are too many experts and people at the border claiming that this is a real crisis...not a manufactured one.

Maybe since there's already over 700 miles of border wall, they think there is already a wall where there needs to be one? And that claiming we need even more IS manufacturing a crisis? I'm not sure but that would make at least some sense.

Look, Trump took ownership of the shut down. He said he was proud of the shut down. That he wouldn't blame the Dems for the shut down.

So you can pretend he didn't say that. You can now ignore all of that and blame the Dems if you want. But it won't change the fact that Trump said all of that. Just a reminder.......



Own it.

Own what? If you want to blame Trump for the shutdown, own that. I didn't know we were debating who is to blame for the shutdown. I blame whoever isn't willing to negotiate.

I thought you wanted an honest discussion on the wall? If Chuck & Nancy thought 700 miles was enough, why did they offer up 4x the amount of money for a wall just one year ago? There was a crisis/need then, but not now? It was moral, just, effective and affordable one year ago - at $20 million instead of $6 million - but now it's not?

Crickets.

Boil down the issue and sift through the bashing and you have a situation that is rather clear. Chuck & Nancy are playing politics at the expense of the security of Americans - as well as many unfortunate, deserving people stuck at the border.

Chuck and Nancy didn’t shut down the gov’t. trump did. trump alone owns all of this.

Yes, he must sign off at the end. So...to the point of the debate:

Who owns the impasse?

Trump. He’s the one who refuses to sign the bills. No matter what you say, it’s on trump. Trump told the country he owns it, as well. So guess who owns it? Lolololol.

You missed the most important question:

Who owns the impasse?

BTW, Nancy hasn't delivered a bill for a vote. It STARTS with her and ends with Trump. There cannot be an ending without a beginning.

That's all BS anyway. Why was the wall a great idea one year ago and now it's not?

Trump owns the impasse.

Trump decided to throw a hissy fit and stop them from visiting our troops overseas. He only person who could pull that was?

Trump. Your president wants to be a dictator so damn bad, and yet all you do is show support when he act like an authoritarian madman.

But I guess trump claiming he was a great negotiator was also a lie. The longest shutdown in American history means his negotiating skills suck.

Were Chuck & Nancy willing to vote for a wall approx one year ago?

Were they willing to give up 4x the money last year that Trump is asking for now?

Based on the two questions above, who is responsible for the impasse?

Answer those questions and the thread can be closed.

For the THIRD time, Trump is responsible.

No matter how hard you try to run interference for him, that will always remain the case. Trump is responsible.

Based on what? I've explained why I think Chuck & Nancy own the impasse. That's all you've got?



Completely irrelevant to the impasse. The impasse occurred before stopping Nancy from leaving town...done so so she can be here to do her job.



Irrelevant to the discussion. He campaigned on the wall...he's working to fulfill that promise. Let's stick to the border wall/fence/barrier/bush.



Again completely irrelevant to the discussion. Barrier or no barrier? Chuck and Nancy on board last year but not now. Why?

So...you've got nothing. Typical.

I’ve got plenty, you just don’t want to hear the truth.

Not my fault you drank the koolaid. But just like trump, can’t take responsibility for anything.

How hilarious is it that here you are arguing over who owns what, despite the fact that trump is on TV explicitly stating he will proudly own all of it.

You don’t have an ounce of credibility on this. It’s your opinion versus what the president said on live TV.

Yea, guess which source I’m gonna go with. Certainly not yours.

It's ok. You can make it all about me if it makes you feel better. Even you know that answering the question shoots a hole right through your argument.

Were Chuck & Nancy willing to vote for a wall approx one year ago? Or were they not?

It's ok..we all know the answer.

Sorry WSU, you are not bringing logical arguments to the table, just Fox talking points. We on the left are open to rational debate, but browbeating us with obvious BS will get you nowhere.