DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Ohio reintroduces 'heartbeat' abortion bill!

I've seen you bring this point up before but I still don't understand why anyone would be charged for something like that? I don't see anyone here advocating for that.

j/c

And many of the very same pro life people in this thread would cut social programs that would help to feed and house these children. That would help give them medical care. They would spend voucher money to send their kids to private schools and take away money from public schools that would educate these children.

That's not pro life at all. That's pro birth. You want to insure they're all born, but if a cop shoots one of them in the back 18 or 20 years later, they should have froze.



Maybe some need to take a long look at what "pro life" means. It's not about forcing someone to have a baby in impoverished conditions and saying, "good luck!"

We know why people don't advocate for it, because it's a crazy idea. However, if we give zygotes and fetuses the legal protections of human beings, then it extends to all laws, just not ones that deal strictly with abortion. If a 2 year old dies due to negligence of the parents, they will be held responsible. So why not if they're 2 months old?

It's a crazy thing, but countries do have those laws. El Salvador's abortion laws cover miscarriages and still births. Women get decades in prison due to a still birth.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la...0730-story.html

I guess the solution is to have a clear, rational, serious discussion about definitions. Being engaged is really the only way to bolster legal safeguards. I'd also bet that El Salvador doesn't have the same Constitution as us.

I think my answer also fits a similar question I can pose to you, but on the other end of the spectrum. What happens if we get single payer and we experience overpopulation. How do we ensure a woman's right to choose to have a babyin the face of people advocating for forced abortions if people don't comply with a gov't mandate of one child per couple as is similarly done in China?

We could come up with any number of extreme results, and I think we are wise to keep them in consideration. But in my estimation we have a fair amount of room before we get close to either of our scenarios.

If we ever detect a creature on another planet that has a heartbeat, no matter the level of development, I am sure that science would considered it life and one of the greatest discoveries in the history of the world. They would gag on their Wheaties if someone said it should be destroyed.

The right to lifers will get my vote when they can show me a loving home and parents to care for these unwanted and or sick children until they are capable of caring for themselves as adults. And I will go along with forcing births on those who would seek an abortion, if we also force the adoptions on those who would feel they have the right to decide for others.

And as the adoptive 'right'-to-lifer you would not have any say on race or health conditions of the children you are assigned to adopt.

Shoe meet other foot.

That is a cop-out man. You can't refute my previous comment, so you post that garbage.


Read my previous comment. Tell me I am wrong.

How loved and wealthy does a child need to be for his or her parents not to slaughter it?

You are correct. Feel better? Now you get on board with my statement. It's easy to say they should be born when you're not on the hook to raise them. You ready to be assigned the children you "save" to raise?

Here is a short list of folks who I believe would disagree with you bro.



Kate Adie (journalist)
Edward Albee (playwright)
Maya Angelou (poet and author)
John J. Audubon (naturalist)
Michael Bay (director)
Tallulah Bankhead (actress)
Layne Beachley (surfer)
Lynda Bellingham (actress)
Ingrid Bergman (actress)
Andy Berlin (co-founder of ad agency Berlin Camerson & Partners)
James Best (actor)
Les Brown (motivational speaker)
Surya Bonaly (professional skater)
Richard Burton (actor)
Senator Robert Byrd
Augustus Caesar (emporer of Rome)
Truman Capote (author)
Harry Caray (baseball broadcaster)
Peter Carruthers (professional skater)
Kitty Carruthers (professional skater)
Kristin Chenoweth (actress)
Eric Clapton (singer)
President Bill Clinton
Lynette Cole (Miss USA 2000)
Nat King Cole (singer)
Gary Coleman (actor)
Daunte Culpepper (professional football)
Rachel Crow (X Factor contestant)
Faith Daniels (TV news personality)
Ted Danson (actor, adopted child and adoptive father)
Tommy Davidson (comedian)
Toby Dawson (professional skier)
Eric Dickerson (professional football)
Bo Diddley (musician)
Carl Theodore Dreyer (filmmaker)
Larry Ellison (co-founder and CEO of Oracle)
Clarissa Pinkola Estes (poet)
President Gerald Ford
Jamie Foxx (singer, actor)
Scott Fujita (professional football)
Tim Green (professional football)
Jonathon Gilbert (actor)
Melissa Gilbert (actress)
Newt Gingrich (politician)
Faith Hill (singer)
Scott Hamilton (professional skater)
John Hancock (U.S. Founding Father)
Debbie Harry (singer)
Reese Hoffa (Olympic shot putter)
Jesse Jackson (politician)
Steve Jobs (co-founder of Apple)
Eartha Kitt (singer, actress)
Matthew Laborteaux (actor)
Patrick Laborteaux (actor)
John Lennon (singer)
Representative Jim Lightfoot
Allan "apl.de.ap" Pineda Lindo, jr. (singer, member of Black Eyed Peas)
Art Linkletter (TV personality)
Ray Liotta (actor)
Charlotte Lopez (actress and Miss Teen USA 1993)
Greg Louganis (Olympic Gold Medal Diver)
Malcolm X (human rights activist)
Lee Majors (actor)
Nelson Mandela (human rights activist)
Nimmy March (actress)
James MacArthur (actor)
Darryl "D.M.C." McDaniels (musician)
Frances McDormand (actress)
Tim McGraw (singer)
Sarah McLachlan (singer)
James Michener (author)
Tom Monaghan (founder of Domino's Pizza, owner of Detroit Tigers)
Lucy Maud Montgomery (author)
Marilyn Monroe (actress)
Moses (biblical leader)
Mother Teresa (humanitarian)
Alonzo Mourning (professional basketball)
Dan O'Brien (Olympic gold medalist, decathalon)
Hugh O'Connor (actor)
Michael Oher (professional football, story inspired The Blind Side)
Jim Palmer (professional baseball)
Aaron Parchem (Olympic figure skater)
Lorraine Pascale (model, author and chef)
Dana Plato (actress)
Edgar Allen Poe (author)
Nicole "Snookie" Polizzi (TV personality)
Priscilla Presley (actress)
Michael Reagan (President Reagan's son)
First Lady Nancy Reagan
Nicole Richie (TV personality)
Wilson Riles (educator)
First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt
Victoria Rowell (actress)
Buffy Sainte-Marie (singer)
Paull Shin (state senator)
Dave Thomas (founder of Wendy's, children's advocate)
Leo Tolstoy (author)
Dr. Ruth Westheimer (media personality, sex therapist)
Mayor Anthony Williams (Washington, D.C. politician)
Jett Williams (singer)

What in the hell is this nonsense?

I'm not sure how the US constitution would help, if you want to add a legal framework that would fundamentally change the constitution? It's really a simple debate. Do fetuses and zygotes deserve the protections afforded to human beings or not? Once you start to split hairs, you start to lose ground. You can't say, "Well, they're humans in this situation, but not that."

As far as your question is concerned, considering the size of the US, how much land we have and how stupid the idea of a malthusian equation where we can calculate overpopulation, if such a concept actually exists, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree to answer.

GM, when you get a chance, would you mind posting a link to where you got that list? I'm just curious what website groups Caesar Augustus, Edgar Allen Poe, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, first Ladies Nancy Reagan, and Elanor Roosevelt, Robert Byrd, Tolstoy and Snooki.

Good for them.
As I’ve said, I’d personally choose otherwise.

CHS ftw

https://www.americanadoptions.com/adoption/celebrity_adoption

The point is that all of those folks were not aborted they were adopted. Now instead of noticing that you want to worry about what web site provided the list of names

Here are some more websites that provide a list of folks who have been adopted

https://www.ranker.com/list/adopted-celebrities/carlybobarly

https://www.buzzfeed.com/spenceralthouse/famous-people-you-didnt-know-were-adopted

Is there a webpage that lists the thousands of foster kids bounced from one foster home to another their entire childhood? Or those living in other more institutionalized settings that never get adopted? Is there one that lists the thousands of children that get ‘raised’ by crappy parents that didn’t want the kid in the first place? Is there a page that shows the crime statistics of the kids that were raised in crappy homes or tossed like so much baggage from one foster home to another until they reached adulthood?

Which unwanted kid did you adopt GM?

https://www.adoptuskids.org/meet-the-children/children-in-foster-care/about-the-children

“Of the 400,000 children in foster care, more than 100,000 of them are waiting to be adopted.”

“Each year, approximately 20,000 youth will age out of the foster care system when they turn 18 or 21, or when they finish high school (depending upon the state in which they live.) These children are at increased risk of poor educational outcomes, experiencing homelessness, and being unemployed.”

Hurry GM open up your home. Got 100,000 extra beds? You can help keep another wave of 20,000 poorly educated young adults from becoming unemployed and homeless,

...that’s what I thought... no room at the GM house. He’ll just stand between a woman and her choice to not add to the problem. Because compassion for the unborn.

So fake.

On the latter response, that's cool. I don't see much value in going to far down that road either.

On the former... I understand your point about splitting hairs, but the discussion already is and I don't see how it's avoidable. I disagree that it's a simple conversation for a number of reasons. The discussion can be simplified and given the weight of the Constitution if an objective answer to the question of "when life begins" or the when someone is legally defined as a "person" is made. Convicting people for an additional count of murder when an unborn person is isn't carried to term as a result of their actions toward the mother already is splitting those hairs.

That zygoat/fetus exists. It simply does. But what is it in the legal sense? A person or property? It can only be, and has to be, one of the two. The people who believe it's not a person have to be against those double convictions. There is no equivalent property crime that nets you the same sentence.

I'm actually a little surprised I can't get much in the way of discussion about this. I'm not posing it as a "gotcha" question or trying to be tricky. I just want to hear about the rationale some may have for supporting such laws but still being pro-abortion.

Over the last couple of decades the pro-life argument has been gaining ground. Science and technology has a lot to do with that. The pro-abortion side long stood on the "it's not a person until it's born" as if there some hugely impactful transformation that occurs in that exact moment. Improved ultrasounds and 3D pictures in utero so good you can start to see the parent's physical characteristics show that "moment" can literally occur any time and that being in the womb or outside the womb is simply a change of your X,Y, and Z axis in the Universe.

They also said it wasn't a person because it's not "viable". Disregard the fact that viable was never defined, but here again science and medicine have greatly increased the chances of survival for premature births. My oldest step daughter was born at 24 weeks and against the odds came out healthy. And technically speaking, a person isn't viable until they are several years old, probably 6 or 7 if not older when they have at least some rudimentary understanding of how to survive in the world.

For the longest time it was a wive's tale to say you should read to the unborn, play classical music, etc. Well, here again science has shown there is some truth to it. Even in the womb that whatever it is reacts to stimulus the same way born people do.

This all undescores what I would present as a fact in this discussion that people at large inherently and instinctually recognize it as a "person". Socially a women becoming pregnant is a cause for celebration and congratulations. We have baby showers, gender reveals... we refer to her as "eating for 2". We feel degrees of loss when there is a miscarriage.

And when a baby is born, unless it's an ugly baby, it brings most people joy to see one. And if it is an ugly baby, people recognize how special the occasion is and care enough to at least lie to your face LOL

I think in the end, legally speaking, the solution is going to be a fairly early cap on when an abortion can be done as a "choice" and for there to be the oft stated exceptions for rape/incest/life of the mother. That cap in my mind should be defined as when there is some nominal amount of brain activity/ response to stimulus. I don't know what that amount would be, I'd have to leave it to a neuroscientist to sort that out.

I find it odd when someone tells the poor to get off their butts, get working, and stop being a parasite, you will call them every name in the book yet here you are, calling for them to be killed so they so they don't end up poor.

So noble of you, saving them from themselves.

No, I was curious about the list as Augustus wasn't adopted, just appointed as Caesar's heir. Augustus's mother was alive during his reign. Mandela overturned strict abortion laws in South Africa. Twain died penniless and alone, some account his death to a suicide. I could go on, but I think you get the point that I was thoroughly confused about the list of people, what their connection was, and most importantly, why you felt the need to speak for them with such certainty.

I'll get to this once I get to a computer, but once again you bring up great points.

No. Wrong like on so many other threads. I’ve never “called for them to be killed”. I’ve called for a woman to have a choice. A choice if she herself is living hand to mouth, to not place herself in deeper straights because she got pregnant. The choice that she has to not bring a child into her already not good situation. Making it worse. OR... the choice for a wealthy, business/career oriented woman/couple that got accidentally pregnant in their loving marriage but don’t want to derail their careers. Or just don’t have the desire to have a child. Or another child. Or what ever their reasoning....of any one else’s reasoning.
I’m advocating for choice.
You know why?
Because it ain’t my body. It ain’t my choice. See how simple that is.

He just says stupid crap that makes no sense in order to get a reaction. Consider the source.

Death over poverty, shine that turd.

From the party of "If you don't work, you don't eat."

Shining turds is something TRUMP SUPPORTERS have mastered. 40 knows his turd shining.

Not that I know of. Is there one that lists the names of all babies murdered since Roe V Wade?



As I have said many, many times on these boards NONE. NOw your against rape, domestic violence, and murder of innocent children (Ones from birth to 18 years of age) correct?

Just how many of their lives have you saved? Have you personally stopped any rapists? anybody from abusing there spouse/parents/children? Have you stopped anybody from murdering a kid? If the answer is nope then you must be all for those things right

Just how many of these folks are living in your house and are you paying for? I mean if you are not taking care of rape victims then you must be all for rape by your thinking.

https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

R.I.F. I said I believe they would disagree. I DID NOT say they all disagree. I did not say I am 100 percent positive they all think your full of crap I did not say they all say your wrong. I said "I believe they would disagree"

Just got off the phone with Tolstoy and he told me to tell you to keep his name out of mouth until you've read war and peace. sorry, bub.

Did you reach him in Heaven or Hell?

Enquiring minds want to know

Haha this dude isn't familiar with Tolstoy. More of a Bulgakov fan, huh?

I know who he is, I have read War and Peace (many moons ago) both moons in the sky and ones I have showed other folks by dropping my drawers.

If I remember correctly he also was big on loving God, and your neighbor and thought that was more important than a church or man made traditions just as I do. Other than that I don't remember much about him.

if u know u know

Honestly, I'm against Murder.. of all kinds.. But I'm some old white guy that doesn't think I have the right to tell a young woman what to do with her body.


Now, if you can say in all truthfulness, that if you have the baby, we will help you with the costs of raising a child, then that's a different conversation

But what we are seeing from the Trump admin and Republicans in general is a roll back of assistance for those types of kids.

So what message are we sending?

You can't have an abortion

We won't be there for you if you do have a baby.

Boy that sends a sick message.

And in case you haven't noticed, Conservatives are indeed acting like they don't believe in science..

By the way, I'm a heartbeat guy... if you can hear it, it's alive. Aborting is murder.

Does that cover my thoughts.

The message is the same as it's always been, pro birth. Pro life would mean they actually care about those babies after their born. They wouldn't consistently propose cutting the very programs that help house, clothe and feed them. They wouldn't support voucher systems that drain public education of their funds. Most everyone can sift through the BS to see that.

Of course I’m against rape, domestic violence, murder etc. It’s why I don’t commit such crimes. It’s my ‘choice’ not to. As it should be to any mentally healthy individual.
I also haven’t had, or been a part of, an abortion. Truth be told I’m not a fan. But it’s my choice to not do such a thing. Much as it should be anyone’s choice.
As to the false equivalency of me supporting rapists because I haven’t stopped them... it’s just that, a false equivalency. Rape is illegal and is a random act of sexual violence against a fellow citizen. Abortion isn’t illegal and is done at the behest of the person that is the cell clump’s ‘‘host’. It’s a medical procedure done by trained physicians. I know that rubs you the wrong way but it’s facts., and it should remain so... Because it’s not your body. It’s not your cell clump. You have no intent of assisting said cell clump to live a long healthy life post birth so stay out of it. I’d sit on a jury to put the rapist away.
If you can’t see the difference that’s on you.
Too add, much as criminal penalties haven’t stopped rape or murder or domestic violence, criminal penalties will absolutely not stop abortion. It’ll just make them far more dangerous.
Is that the plan?

Which is what I feel about abortion.



But with that answer you are either telling a lie or just don't want to admit the truth. It's NOT anyones choice. The baby has NO CHOICE. The father of the baby has NO CHOICE. Why do you discriminate against the baby and the father?



Yet you don't support anyones choice you only support the mother, NOT the baby or the father.



So is murder yet you allow an exception if the baby has not come out of his/her mothers vagina yet Even though you support charging another person with murder if they hit the mother and murder the baby. Why do you discriminate like that?????? If the baby's father, grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc, etc, etc, get charged with murder if they kill the baby but you want to not only let the mother off scott free you want to pat them on the bACK AND SAY THATS ok.




Thats what DR Kevorkian says. Do you agree with him???



Lets say your neighbor is shot and killed by another neighbor. That's not my body, it doesn't effect me at all. There clump of cells have been snuffed out and cease to exist. But hey who Gives a funk if they don't have a chance to have a long and healthy life? Oh wait you do Well since you can't see the difference then that's on you.



Well then lets just make all murder legal is that your plan?