DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum WR room ... Why exactly is it we need one? ...

I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting we shouldn't provide Baker with play makers just as you have described. I think the issue becomes more do we find play makers or pay a hefty price to acquire a play maker.

In looking at Doresey's career, he seems to be able to find play makers at a reasonable cost without paying huge sums for them on the FA market.

In regards to TE, I think itd be a bad move to not give Devalve a shot. He showed lots of promise his first 2 years, and was growing. Its unfortunate he had to fight an injury last season.

j/C

Orson Charles only had a one year deal worth about $750K. Personally, I liked our TE unit. Although, this coming season Devalve will have to show more to keep his spot. About Charles, I understand that the NFL is a competitive business. The single talent that Charles offers IMO is his blocking ability from the FB position. Obviously, we'll need a player for those situations that can do what Charles did for us. I think he performed well until his injury. I'd like to have him back in camp. If we draft a late round player or bring in a UDFA to compete for that roster spot they'll need to be a better option than Orson.

Otherwise, I'd want him to make the 53.

WR wouldn't be on the 'need' list....I wouldn't be looking through FA or targeting a WR specifically through the draft..

But this is a good draft for WRs and if one is BPA then I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger

Those of you who think we are fine are mistaken, last I looked, we still had a losing record. Improved - YES, set - FAR FROM IT. As far as WR, we need an upgrade and this is why. Separation and route running is critical to the success of the QB. The ability to move the football consistently is highly dependent on the smarts of said WR's. Offense is dependent on the ability of not only the QB's ability to read the defense but the WR also. I'm confident that teams like NE approach the line with 2 plays every snap. Depending on the defensive set, all the players are on the same page as to what to run.

It's no mistake that when you look at release times of QB's that the same ones always are at the top. In 2018, Big Ben 2.55, Brees 2.59, Brady 2.61, Rivers 2.62, and Luck 2.63. It's no mistake that these guys are at the top of the heap year in and year out. Mayfield had a release time of 2.79 in 2018. So how does a guy like Brady win the Super Bowl with out a true #1 WR? He does it with smart WR's who can read defenses and are on the same page. Do you think it's just a mistake that they have a player like Edlemann that makes 75% of his catches dragging across the middle from the slot?

The Browns have some pieces in place. I like our TE who could be a monster running seam routes but unless we have that drag across the middle the seam is a wish and a prayer. Do our wideouts know when they are being played man or zone and which pattern to run depending on the defense? Do our RB's know on every play where their release should be? Doesn't it seem strange to you that almost without fail, the NE backs always release to the point where the blitzing LB came from?


If I'm the Browns, first I hire Wes Walker as WR coach. This guy knows how to read defenses from the WR spot and could make our guys smart WR's. Second, I try to get maybe Marshall Faulk or Edgerin James to work with Chubb. Third, I find a guy, rostered currently or not, that can run the middle routes. Once we find that person, the other positions (especially TE) will become viable weapons. Finally, Mayfield has to reduce his release time. I firmly predict that if Mayfield can get his release time down to below 2.6 and his receivers become smart - sacks will be cut in half, scoring will increase by 6 points per game, and Mayfield will pass for over 4,500 yds.


These minor cost moves would greatly improve the offense. Then the focus could be on the OL, DL, LB and corners. Oh, if the Browns are going to dip into the FA market or make a trade - I'm all in if they can get Von Miller. He's a game changer and I think would have the same effect that Mack had in Chicago. MAKE THE DEAL!

You make some good points about the qb release time. I do think we have a WR who is smart and can read defenses in Jarvis Landry. He can read coverages and knows what to do. However, there were many times where Baker did not throw the ball to an open Landry on shorter throws and instead tried to force the ball downfield. I'm hoping Baker will improve/evolve in this aspect of the game as he gains experience.

Yes, u are 100% correct .... last year our WR’s definetly held Bake back ... it was SICKENING how little they helped him ... and they definetly have no clue what there doing out there or how to read a defense ... Vice Grips has NO CLUE how to run a route or read a D ..

Poor Bake stuck with these non route running bafoons we have at WR ... ...

The WR’s were definetly the reason we didn’t make the playoffs ...

Release times are critical. I wonder how Bakers times improved as the season progressed? I also wonder how Bakers release times compare to the guys you mentioned when they were rookies?

Let's compare Bakers release times to guys who have been in the league 14 years...

I think the release times were slower running Haleys system.

There is nothing wrong with our receivers.

Nobody is saying we can't get better, At least for me, we don't want to take a receiver early in the draft.

I am curious to see Bakers release times under haley, and then bakers release times under Kitchens. I bet they are considerably different.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2018/16


If I am reading it correctly, in week 6 Baker got the ball out in 2.91 seconds. In week 16 he got it out in 2.54 seconds.

Looks like receivers getting separation much sooner and Baker making his reads quicker.

I believe you as well as others are onto something. Not only is there a difference in release time under Kitchens, but as a rookie QB you expect progress and improvement as the year goes along.

A combination of a rookie QB improving as the year goes along combined with play calling that opens things up sooner would be the two keys as to why you really can't look at the season as a whole but look at it BK and AK. ( Before Kitchens and after Kitchens )

I think when one looks at it under that scenario we'll find that the theory above by steve0255 realy doesn't hold water.

I'd go along with all of that, but suggest that it wasn't simply play CALLING, but play DESIGN that made the difference.

Perhaps a case of semantics, but in either case Haley was rigid and dogmatic in his approach and Kitchens was completely devoted to finding ways to make things work better, whatever it took.

Your description is probably a better way to phrase it than I did.

I think it was obvious that Baker got rid of the ball quicker under Kitchens than he did Haley. I agree w/you and Purp about the design of the plays and the actual play calling. Kitchens really impressed me.

One thing I noticed is that when Baker's first read was open, he got rid of the ball very, very fast. When that guy wasn't open, Baker tended to struggle a bit w/his progressions. The OL deserves a lot of credit for giving Baker a lot of time in those situations.

I will say that I thought Baker showed dramatic improvement in making his pre-snap reads as the season progressed, especially given his lack of experience playing under center in college.

I'm hoping that Baker and Landry do a lot of work together in the off-season and during the camps. Landry is smart and good route runner. That should help Baker when going through his progressions.

I agree. Both Landry and Baker make enough they could spring for a couple 3-4 day workout sessions down in Florida or out in the desert.. Pay to bring in guys like Ratley and Willies along with Callaway and Njoku. Add in Chubb. Anybody else I might be missing.

They better have at least one or two or I’m gonna be PEED ... really PEED .. and also SHOCKED ...

1st off these guys get it ....

2nd they really LOVE PLAYING WITH EACH OTHER ...

3rd .. there DRIVEN TO IMPROVE AND WIN ...

I expect EVERYONE to be there ... including Stanton and any QB’s we draft or sign in FA ..

U forgot Higgins, Perrmiman and Duke off the top of my head .. if not Higgins or Perriman who ever we sign to take there places ...

EVERYONE NEEDS to be there ..

I’m telling u guys .. this is DIFFERENT .. we have a TEAM in every aspect!!!!

Heck if it was allowed I’d bet my bottom dollar on it that Freddie would show up ..

Ok, everybody. I wasn't trying to name the whole team.

I think it's important to remember that Baker and Landry didn't work together much during the camps because Tyrod was the starter. This year, they will get more reps together and that should help a lot.

I think a quarterbacks release time can be influenced by their offensive line. So I don't know that this is an accurate assessment to what it trying to be proved... A poor Oline could influence the time to throw and make it drastically lower than you'd expect from a poor quarterback. I do think it's important, but I think it can be overblown.

I'm not trying to fight w/you, but I don't necessarily agree w/you on the OL. Look at the guys at the top.....they generally have good o-lines.

I also think that when your OL sucks, you have a tendency to pull the ball down and move in the pocket some before you get sacked or throw it away.

I think a QBs release time is one of more significant stats in football, especially considering so many of the stats that are talked about a lot are not that important at all. For example, they rank defenses by yards allowed. That is beyond ignorant.

No doubt each play can be extended. I am sure there were plays where Baker didn't throw for 6-7 seconds while running around. Others in two or less. A spiked ball counts as a pass. But it is the same for all the other Qb's. I think the averages work out to have meaning.

No one is fighting. You're allowed to disagree. I believe there are factors that can influence a quarterback's time to throw and offensive line is one of them. I believe if you believe offensive line is not important then you would be mistaken.

I think the stat is important, but I think it can be skewed if you take it at face value. That was my point.

I think the offensive line is very important. In fact, I think they were a big part of why Baker had such a good year.

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent about the OLine. I have posted this article on OLine protection schemes before but it's really good and it's relevant to the whole discussion on how fast Baker was getting the ball out as the season went on.

I think some of you are missing the point. This was not a negative on Baker as much as it was a must improvement going forward. Comparing Baker to seasoned vets (in this case release times) is where we need him to be in order to grow.


The comparison though is based on success. All the talk about OL, spikes, and the such are issues every QB deals with. But those winners all have one thing in common and that's how quickly the play develops and how soon the QB thus executes. Which again brings me back to WR. The Browns do not have smart play reading WR's - yet. It cannot just be Landry, it must be every receiver (WR, TE, RB) on the field every play. The Browns do not have that need as of yet.


I'm sure that Baker and the crew will be having off season workouts and that will certainly help. Like I seen with an interview with Brees, he spends hours working with his receivers on back shoulder throws. The Browns need and will get those workouts but it doesn't make them smart receivers. Argue all you want but there's a specific reason why guys like Brady, Big Ben, P. Manning and Rodgers are league leaders every year in passing - especially Brady - they have receivers that can read defenses and alter their routes depending on what the defense is offering and know that their QB has seen the exact same thing.


Just one more point on the release time and smart receivers. It's no secret that those QB's with the quickest release are the same ones with the lowest sacks. In 2018: Luck, Brees, Brady and Big Ben had the fewest sacks in the league. 3 of those 4 were top 10 with the highest yds per attempt, So if you were misconceived by thinking these guys dink and dunk you are wrong. With our young receiving group, I stick with my original thought of bringing in someone who understands smart receiver play to train these guys. If we become smart the sky's the limit!

I believe if one looked at the first half of the season verses the second half of the season you would see the release time was vastly improved. Things were vastly different after Freddie took over and as Baker improved.

Ya, i missed the point .. its hard to communicate on here ..

I didn’t agree with anything in your first post the way I interpreted it ... agree with everything u said in this one ...at least the way I interpreted it ...




YET being the key word ... we have a bunch of pups playing WR ... Higgins has 3 years under his belt but only 1 really counts ... the first two years weren’t a waste of time but they weren’t exactly good breeding grounds ... Njoku has two .... Perriman hardly ever played and I’m not sure Baltimore is a good breading ground for WR’s ... they haven’t developed any ...well EVER .. S.Smith came to them a GREAT WR all ready ..

No need ot go through the list ..

I agree with pretty much everything u said in this post ... thanks for clearing it up for me .. it was a very very enjoyable read and i learned from it ... Thanks for that ...

Higgins has been a hard worker since he got here. He's not an overnight success story, nor is he one specifically tied to Baker. Since last year Hawk has been promoting Higgins on his podcast about how much of a hard worker he is. Not only was he a first one in, last one out kinda guy, he was also in any vets ear asking how to get better.

What do u think Kenny Britt taught him ....

ANOTHER SASHI GEM ... I wonder if King John got Depo’s permission TO CUT HIM on his VERY FIRST DAY!!!! Bwaaahhaaaa ,,,,

ANALYTICS department sure KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK WITH THAT ONE ... ...


They did GREAT IN FA ...

SASHI and DEPO let Schwartz walk but signed Britt and gave Collins a HUGE CONTRACT ...

Yup .. THATS A WINNING FORMULA ... ..

And u got two of the leaders of SASHI’S CULT still try9ng ot convice us that VICE GRIPS WAS OVERPAID ... ...

Tell ya what ...

KING JOHN HAS MADE THE ANALYTICS DEPARTMENT LOOK A HECK OF ALOT BETTER ...

I think John Brown would be a nice pick up.

Why? .. what does he bring to the room?

A good vet with speed. He was on his way to a 1000 yard season before Jackson took over.

He's a lot like some we have, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be an asset.

I like John Brown as well... Although I think he's a fine WR, I don't see a need for him here. He's not very big, Antonio Brown-esque. I don't think we necessarily need a big target for Mayfield, but I wouldn't mind one. I would take Tyrell Williams over John Brown.

We have VICE GRIPS for our vet ...

We have Calloway for speed ...

Hopefully we re-sign Perriman ... then we have two speed guys .... not real hopeful seeing as who is agent is ... players who hire him only care about one thing ... getting as much as they can .... king john is building a team and signing players who only care about money isn’t the type were looking for ... hope i’m wrong but the history with drew doesn’t bode well for us ...

Brown is not that good ... not sure why he gets so much love on here ... he runs fast ... thats about it ...

U can lock Vice Grips, Calloway and Higgins in (they’ll get him signed ... not worried about him) . ... most teams dress 5 on game day ....

Three of those spots are locked up ... if we re-sign Perriman thats 4 .... Willies/Ratley are gonna get cut so we can sign John Brown? ... maybe if we don’t re-sign Perriman but he re-signs .. NO WAY ... even if we dont re-sign Perriman we can draft someone late every bit as good as John Brown ... hes nothing special ...

If u want to bring him in as a returner ... thats another story ...

I forgot about Sashi’s and your analytics crew boy ... Ricardo Louis ... .... he’s GONZO ....

Someone that intrigues me is Adam Humphrey’s from TB ...

I like him too. I just mentioned Brown as a possibility. Nothing more.

Also, John seems to like speed at the receiver position, so he fits the mold.

I agree here...

Landry, Higgins and Callaway will be the 3.

Perriman gets resigned or maybe someone like Tyrell Williams if we do FA. But he's probably going to cost a lot due to the market. A trade somewhere could actually be feasible...

I don't like a trade for OBJ. Not saying I don't like it, I just don't think it'll happen... I think Louis, Willies, Ratliff and whomever else we may bring in to battle it out for the last spot(s).


I wonder what it is you like about Humphries...? I know you're going to lose it after this question, but do we really need another slot receiver?

Landry’s about as much of a slot reciever as Larry Fitzgerald is .. your ignorance on Vice Grips talent makes me *L* ... just like your thoughts on Sashi make me *L* .. just because i bite doesn’t mean i’m upset ...

Vice Grips is a top 15 WR in this league ... regardless of how u and others want to label him ... he’s a PLAYMAKER ...

Humphries is a good WR who has the skill set to excel in the slot .. like DeValve i think Humphries is good and has a spot in the league ... just not here ... he doesn’t bring anything to the room ...

If we go two wides it’ll be VG and either Calloway or Higgins or Perriman if he re-signs ... If Perriman was with the team longer I think we would have seen more of him ... then when we go 3 wides u have either VG or Calloway as slot guys ... LOTS OF OPTIONS and DIFFERENT LOOKS with the room we have if we re-sign Perriman .... i’d love to see what Humphries could do in the Walker/Edelman in NE ... i think he’d excel in that role ... he does the thing i value most in a WR ... he CATCHES THE FRICKIN BALL!!!

I want nuttin to with OBJ ... everyone focused on this elite #1 we need cause we don’t have one ... i like our room we ended last year with and wanna see what Willies bring to the table ... Bake spreads the ball around ... and he’s gonna cost a ton to trade for ... he is a top 3 WR in this league talent wise ... no doubt ... the gnats aren’t letting that talent walk unless its for a kings ransom ...

Not as high on Williams as u and some of the other guys on the board ... if we don’t re-sign Perriman ... Williams would be much more preferable for me than Brown ... i have no clue why u guys like brown ... Williams will cost more .... neither of them have good hands ... Williams drops way more passes than he should .. his hands are suspect at best ..

We’ll see what happens shortly ... i really hope Perriman suprises me and re-signs with us .. if he does ... i have zero problems standing pat ... especially with these guys all getting an entire off season with Bake ...

IMO next year will be OFF THE CHARTS compared to this year ...