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Agreed. Shobert isn't the most talented player we have on D but I believe he is the smartest and a leader as was evident when he didn't play.
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Schobert gets better every year and that is what you want from your young players! Also he was like PFF's #4 LB last year???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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The Browns lost all 3 games that Joe missed last year. They gave up 26, 33, and 37 in those games.
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The Browns lost all 3 games that Joe missed last year. They gave up 26, 33, and 37 in those games. It didn't help that those games were against teams with good offenses. We were also missing Terrance Mitchell. It's not good to be down DBs against the Chiefs. I'm not trying to say we didn't miss Joe, but those teams could very well have put up points regardless. PIT, TB, and KC were pretty WR-centric last season. Particularly downfield passing. Not sure how big an impact Joe has in that facet on D. He doesn't really cover receivers or rush the passer much. Teams that put stress on DBs put points up on us. RBs had more room to maneuver when they were run off, too. Joe's tackling probably would have helped there, but I'm not sure how much of an effect it would have had on the point total. Vernon, Richardson, and a healthy Mitchell should be big for us. It would be nice to add a safety, though. Still have Tre Boston out there or a draft pick. Problem with the draft route is the ones who might be plug and play could go early. I like a couple (Savage/Gardner-Johnson), but not enough to give up a future first for.
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J/C
Personally, considering how our secondary is put together two weeks before the draft I think Corner is a higher priority to address in this draft.
If Dorsey sees it the same way I might take a chance on signing the JT Hassell and converting him to Safety. It would take some development as he was a small college Linebacker but he has the size and speed to play Safety in the league. But with Burnett in front of him, he could return tremendous value if he develops.
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J/C
Personally, considering how our secondary is put together two weeks before the draft I think Corner is a higher priority to address in this draft.
If Dorsey sees it the same way I might take a chance on signing the JT Hassell and converting him to Safety. It would take some development as he was a small college Linebacker but he has the size and speed to play Safety in the league. But with Burnett in front of him, he could return tremendous value if he develops. I like Hassell, but think his ceiling has a hard cap with his being "monodextrous." Ward, Mitchell, and Carrie are a solid frontline at CB. I think Burnett is more of a band-aid than a solution at safety. Yes we could potentially upgrade on Carrie and more depth would be nice at CB. You could make an argument for either one. I'm kinda liking Gardner-Johnson for that reason. Can play corner and safety. Hard to go wrong with BPA, though. *shrug*
Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 04/13/19 03:31 PM. Reason: might have is probably more appropriate than "has a hard cap." Wish there were more full games available.
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I like Hassell, but think his ceiling has a hard cap with his being "monodextrous."
mondextrous? I get it now. I took a closer look at some video. I wasn't aware that he had a disability. I didn't see it in his play. Highlights can obscure somethings. I'm sure the team is looking at full game tape.
Last edited by guard dawg; 04/13/19 03:48 PM.
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I like Hassell, but think his ceiling has a hard cap with his being "monodextrous."
mondextrous? Looks like he has some sort of birth defect/injury with his one hand. It's one of the reasons I mentioned Shaquem Griffin in an earlier post about him. Not sure the politically correct way to reference it.
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With our recent safety signings, shouldn't our focus shift to CB ? I realize that the safeties we signed aren't word beaters but we do have some depth there now. Even before the signings I though our corner depth was pretty thin. I think CB now trumps safety based purely on need. Yes, I agree ... CB would be my first choice, depending on who is available.
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The Browns lost all 3 games that Joe missed last year. They gave up 26, 33, and 37 in those games. I'm thinking Schoebert is going to be the 1st move Dorsey makes that will pissy some people off when we let him move in Free Agency. Much bigger fish to fry when it comes to 2nd contracts. As it should be. He's far from a Kuechley.
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I know those teams we lost had more talent then others. But although it doesn't automatically mean we lost those game because of the absence of Schobert. But it was a big VARIABLE. Keep in mind he "IS" the QB of the front 7. He has a uncanny gift of studying film and recognizing teams tendencies.
don't know exactly which of those games he missed and we lost. But I'm guessing that like many of our games we were in it all the way and that tells me that he "POSSIBLY" could have been the difference. It is so so important to have a kid on the field that calls a good game. For the D its up the middle.
You got a MLB for the front 7, and you got a FS for the DBs it is so important to have that General putting the Front 7 and the DBs all in a position with their calls to Succeed!
That is why I was hoping we could make a deal on the cheap and get Dan Lee from the Cowboys. He makes a lot of $$$ and will not be on the field that much some due to fra-gi-li He must be Italian but also with the two young guys with incredible talent taking away reps from him.
This way Schobert starts but if injury we got a guy who steps right in and we don't go down.
jmho My bad as I strayed out of Safeties. ON that note I was impressed with Randall's football intelligence. And we see to be bringing in for visits guys that could be STEAL extraordinaire!!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Why? Do you think he'll ask for a big contract?
I don't.
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tab, they were against Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, and KC. The defense looked completely different when he was out there. It was obvious to anyone who knows the game.
I really don't get all the negative comments from other posters [not you] regarding Joe. The guy has produced very well for a 4th round pick and I believe G. Williams said he was the smartest player he ever coached.
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Kuechely is a man by himself there is no comparison.
Its actually one of my blind Squirrel moves as I told all when he was a Junior that he was going to be the NEXT GREAT MLB. I even remember getting chided about that claim....lol hey the kid was and IS still great. Nobody will be him not even the before mentioned LEE
Schobert might be gotten on the cheap as far as starting ILB and he is a Wisconsin product. I see them being very loyal to the teams that draft them.
And again the importance kwhip of up the middle, he is not just a LB, Kirksey is just a LB. Schobert is a Field General and its a position that is very important to have a leader.
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J/C - Schobert has been excellent value for us and he's part of the solution, not the problem. If we can get a Kuechley then upgrade but we have other areas, such as safety, CB, OT to name but 3, that are more pressing IMHO.
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j/c, I have read a lot of good discussions on the hybrid SS/LB.  The "big nickel" (DLB) defender near the box. In addition to your SS and FS. Which was a role that Burnett was said to be unhappy with with Pittsburg. The value in this role 'imo' is a little bit exaggerate, in that it's not a position of a high % of snaps with most teams who deploy this package, depending on the opponents and a particular game plan, on any given week. So the value placed on a prospect to fill such a role is not something that teams have looked for high in the Draft in the past. I think that Jonathan Abram from Mississippi St. has the skill set to fill that role, and falls into this category. Also this is why I don't have him as a top 5 Safety in this Draft.
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tab, they were against Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, and KC. The defense looked completely different when he was out there. It was obvious to anyone who knows the game.
I really don't get all the negative comments from other posters [not you] regarding Joe. The guy has produced very well for a 4th round pick and I believe G. Williams said he was the smartest player he ever coached. I agree, and Joe plays every snap too, so if his % of missed tackles is high, I would have to say that fatigue could be a contributing factor here ... Not that he would admit to it. Give him some help, up front, and beside him, and behind him, because he wasn't the problem over the past two seasons imo. Besides coverage is king, and the name of the game today at the position.
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Yes. We have to recognize that he lost quite a bit of weight and moved inside to be "coverage" LBer. He isn't the best at getting off of blocks in the run game and our DT's were terrible of keeping blockers off of him at the second level. You miss more tackles when you are forced to reach.
But, Joe is one of the top MLBers in the entire NFL and that is very important. Blows my mind that people criticize him and praised dudes like Collins, Peppers, and Kindred.
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Yes. We have to recognize that he lost quite a bit of weight and moved inside to be "coverage" LBer. He isn't the best at getting off of blocks in the run game and our DT's were terrible of keeping blockers off of him at the second level. You miss more tackles when you are forced to reach.
But, Joe is one of the top MLBers in the entire NFL and that is very important. I think it will be interesting to see Joe's play with a DT like Richardson in front of him and a SS that can actually cover (a bit) and knows where to be...and where to go.
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Anyone have thoughts on Will Harris from Boston College?
Just started watching him, and I'm really liking what I'm seeing. He doesn't have the flashy highlights, but he's just always doing his job. He looks good in coverage, but isn't challenged all that often, so doesn't have the numbers. He's not the biggest hitter, but he takes good angles/uses the sideline/breaks down well. He reminds of Randall a bit stylistically from that perspective. He does "miss" some tackles, but I think it's partially because he's more trying to force guys back to his help than trying to always get the tackle himself.
His measurables look good. He plays in the box and deep. Team Captain. Started the last three games of his freshman year and then all of the 3 following years, so he is experienced and has been durable. Had four fumble recoveries as a junior leading the country and showing his awareness and the fact that he's around the ball a lot.
Was projected in the 5-6th round range, but rumors are he is climbing possibly clear to the 3rd. I'd be mighty tempted if he's there in the 4th. Maybe the 3rd depending on who else is there.
I've talked about Abram benefiting from his pass rush elsewhere. I think Allen and Ray may have benefited from the pass coverage in BC's case.
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Will Harris is pretty versatile in that he is able to play deep Safety in a cover two scheme and cover TEs' from the slot and play in the box. He can do all these things, but just not at an elite level and I think thats why he is looked at as a 5th - 6th round prospect with little chance at offering more than a STs' player at the next level.
He has good size and speed for the position, but he is not very instinctive for a guy who has played four years of College ball imo.
Still just seems to play to grass.
His 0 PD last season is a little disconcerting to say the least.
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What games did you watch?
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What games did you watch? Apparently,I'm past the edit window, but I wanted to expand on that. I'm not trying to call you out, just trying to figure out what you saw where so that I can try to look at it with your perspective in mind. I've watched NC State, Syracuse, and last years Notre Dame. I'm about to watch Florida State. A little curious if there's another game I missed. Also trying to figure out if what you're calling lack of instincts and playing grass is what I'm seeing as doing his job and playing within his scheme. Syracuse,ND, and NC State really try to put DBs in conflict and a DB has to stick to his assignment as a blown coverage can lead to 6 on any given play. RPO's with complex route combinations (and mobile QBs in ND and Syracuse's cases) are rough on defenses. As a safety you have to worry about the pass first because its imperative not to let anything over your head.
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Does he have the speed and explosion to transition his skills to the NFL level??? You know, some guys look great at the college level but put in the NFL forum their skills just do not transition to the NFL.
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Does he have the speed and explosion to transition his skills to the NFL level??? You know, some guys look great at the college level but put in the NFL forum their skills just do not transition to the NFL.
Better than the NFL average for safety in all the combine event measurables and a low 4.4 40. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/will-harris
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His 0 PD last season is a little disconcerting to say the least.
With regards to this, he's not Earl Thomas by any means. I'm looking at him as more the Kam Chancellor of that duo. Not quite the size or hitting (who does?), but a guy who's passable deep, can cover TEs, and plays in the box. Ball Skills - One interception and zero pass breakups in 12 games is a tough stat to have on your resume. Has touched the ball four times in coverage over the past two years, including just two picks. At the same time, has surrendered very little in coverage and is rarely thrown at. From zone, breaks on the ball a tad too late to be highly impactful at the catch point, but will lower a shoulder into the receiver to force incompletions/tough catches
Man Coverage - Excellent catch-man technique to use subtle physicality to stay on top of receivers and slow their upfield progress. Stays in phase at the top of routes and doesn’t allow much separation on route breaks. Matches up well with bigger receivers in the slot. Can be slow to flip his hips against vertical routes from the slot, giving up a little separation before closing it with speed.
Route Recognition - Smart player who didn’t give up many big plays. Can be a little aggressive to drive on underneath routes in zone, which can leave him in recovery mode. Patient and technical in man, reading the receiver’s hips and breaking with them. Works through route combinations well in zone coverage, anticipating to play through picks.
Versatility - Often matches up in man coverage with slot receivers, showing the necessary traits to match up with tight ends 1v1. Can play around the line of scrimmage with good size and physicality, but lacks instincts and splash play impact. The same limitations show up in deep coverage, where he will rarely be beaten, but also isn’t impactful on the ball. Special teams should be a strength Supposedly he flashed at Senior Bowl Practice as well.
What an impressive day from Boston College safety Will Harris -- not only from a coverage aspect, but as a blitzer, as well. Harris had an interception while in man coverage on UMass receiver Andy Isabella where Isabella couldn’t get away from him. Later in the practice, Harris perfectly timed a safety blitz that would have blasted North Carolina State quarterback Ryan Finley if it had been a game situation.
Andy Isabella has some fans on here. Harris manned him up successfully at least in this instance and came away with a pick.
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Originally Posted By: TDN
Ball Skills - One interception and zero pass breakups in 12 games is a tough stat to have on your resume.
--(I agree)
Has touched the ball four times in coverage over the past two years, including just two picks. At the same time, has surrendered very little in coverage and is rarely thrown at. From zone, breaks on the ball a tad too late to be highly impactful at the catch point, but will lower a shoulder into the receiver to force incompletions/tough catches
--(This is a contradiction in fact and is speculative on the behalf of this author.)
Man Coverage - Excellent catch-man technique to use subtle physicality to stay on top of receivers and slow their upfield progress. Stays in phase at the top of routes and doesn’t allow much separation on route breaks. Matches up well with bigger receivers in the slot. Can be slow to flip his hips against vertical routes from the slot, giving up a little separation before closing it with speed.
--(True, but he still doesn't effect the receiver and contest the ball from being caught, but to his credit he usually is there to make a quick and sure tackle.)
I never said that Harris was trash or undraftable ... I just point out a prospects weakness. It's nothing personal Bull_Dawg. Check out Browns director of College scouting Steve Malin video of Kentucky pro-day. He told CB Lonnie Johnson previously that he needed to work on his ball skills. Kentucky pro-day Players respect honest criticism.
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Oh! ... I almost forgot to answer your question on my statement about playing to grass ... It can be translated as "mechanical"
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I never said that Harris was trash or undraftable ... I just point out a prospects weakness. It's nothing personal Bull_Dawg. Check out Browns director of College scouting Steve Malin video of Kentucky pro-day. He told CB Lonnie Johnson previously that he needed to work on his ball skills. Kentucky pro-day Players respect honest criticism. I agree that ball skills are a concern with him, but I think they are blown a bit out of proportion. You can't deflect passes that aren't thrown your way. He's often in position to make plays on the ball if they were thrown that direction. I disagree with you on the instincts. To me it more appears that he knows when has to resist them and stick to his job. Are you just looking at stats and reports or are you watching games? I haven't seen you mention any. His tackling can run a little hot and cold. Some nice hits, some solid breaking down in space, but then the occasional sorry missed arm tackle. You might not have literally said trash, but in draft speak "little chance to be more than a special teamer" is kind of close. To me he has a good chance of being a great special teamer with a decent chance of becoming a solid starter. He sheds blockers better than many LBs. He knocks back lineman that have over 50 pounds on him fairly regularly. One of our biggest weaknesses has been covering TEs. I think he could help us there. He's not a perfect prospect by any means, but I'm still not seeing what you say you're seeing. I'm trying to figure out where you are seeing it. I think he has upside in the 4th round.
Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 04/19/19 05:09 PM. Reason: and -> in, should probably start proof reading before hitting submit. Just easier to read when not in the little box.
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The safety that looks intriguing is Darnell Savage.
4.36 speed. Bucky Brooks profile:
"Savage could be the hidden gem of the group as an A-plus athlete with outstanding speed, quickness and range. He not only displays numbers-to-numbers range as a deep defender, but he's an aggressive run stopper with an enforcer's mentality near the box."
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The safety that looks intriguing is Darnell Savage.
4.36 speed. Bucky Brooks profile:
"Savage could be the hidden gem of the group as an A-plus athlete with outstanding speed, quickness and range. He not only displays numbers-to-numbers range as a deep defender, but he's an aggressive run stopper with an enforcer's mentality near the box."
I like Savage. Unfortunately, he's not much of a hidden gem any more. I've seen him in the 1st round of more and more mocks as we get closer.
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Forums The Archives 2019 NFL Season 2019 NFL Draft ...So...Safeties
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