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And I think you hit the nail on the head.

No analytics department is going to be able to help if the man making the selections and decisions suck. All we have to do is look at the before and after pictures of our roster to see that.

There is a lot of analytics going on in football right now concerning physical performance. Today's players are wearing many sensors that monitor the body in many ways. It is data and the analytics produced from it can really help develop training techniques and schedules. They help PREVENT injuries. They have all sorts of gps data as they go through their workouts so they know how fast, how precise, they are running, etc. combine that with their vitals and other sensors, they can also tell how HARD a player is working.

So there are 4 types of analytics right now...
1- Descriptive Analytics - What Happened? - This is the stats we are used to like Completions/TD's/Yards
2- Diagnostic Analytics - Why did this happen? - This is what PFF is getting close to. They are looking for and seeing trends in specific situations and starting to see the patterns describing why a team is so good at Goal Line Situations, etc.
3- Predictive Analytics - What will happen? We use plenty of input parameters and mountains of data here at the hospital to create algorithms that help predict the situations where MRSA is a higher risk. Or help us staff our nurses appropriately by predicting when the high and low times are based on patient age, weather, location, and a hundred other parameters. This is where I think NFL Teams either are in the infancy or trying to get to. But this isn't the Holy Grail...
4- Prescriptive Analytics - How do I influence what Happens??? - This is where people want to be. This takes millions of situations with millions of parameters each and Gives you the best method of enacting your desired outcome. Think of Dr. Strange in Infinity War...Going through all of the millions of situations and seeing only one path that led to victory.

I get into that because I think some of you are getting too sabermetric on NFL Analytics. Sabermetrics in baseball is at Best a level 2 analytics. And Football is just too complicated to really to follow the sabermetrics model...And I think that is where we lose people on the value of Analytics in the NFL and or sports. It isn't JUST about tendencies or QB ratings. It is about finding out why and then finding out what will happen and then how to influence what will happen...

The Browns are not the only team with analytics...obviously. every team out there has it. As mentioned, it is a tool. It is only as good as the person who uses it. And it is only as good as the data it uses as well as the questions that are asked.

Diam, you are welcome to your opinion. But there is a reason Depodesta survived the last purge. I think you Devalue (see what I did there...lol) his role. There probably are not too many people out there that can do what he does...you can probably count them on one hand. I work with health analytics every day. The complexity of it is at times beyond me...and I am a pretty smart guy...LOL You cannot believe the amount of computing power and the sheer amount of data that goes into these analytics.

Football has been collecting statistics for years. And as you know...stats are for losers...Analytics however....well that is for winners.

Because analytics aims to fix all of those things you hate about straight statistics...

Soooo...I kind of have to throw this out there... December 2017, Dorsey comes into a team that had for three years traded back in the draft to constantly acquire more draft capital at the expense of the talent on the roster. His quote was:

"And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.''

And everyone freaks out, so he comes back less than a week later and says:

"I am not a professional wordsmith. I'm a football guy. My intent was to say we don't have enough good football players. There's some good football players on this team."

And somehow everyone still brings it up. He was right. Constantly trading back to acquire more draft capital for future "theoretical" guys isn't getting real players.

I still don't understand why people are offended by that statement. I imagine, if anything, the players who were on the team were kind of sick of constantly building for "next year" too.

Sooner or later you have to take your shot, right?

Anyway. Was a bit off topic, sorry. Just can't figure out how and why that keeps coming up.

Well, when people put it in their sig, it ain't going away.

Like RedBaron said, "He was right".

I agree. Some people just don't get it or they don't like the idea.

I am happy as heck Depo is involved with the team. We have the best in the business, and as he and his staff gain more knowledge of the NFL, they are only going to get better.

I don't get the hate. Depo is doing more to make the Browns better than anyone on here is.

What they don't get is Dorsey himself is analytics driven. He has his numbers that he looks for in players. If the numbers and the tape match, you have a prospect. If the tape looks good but the numbers don't, you have a question mark.

As the two gain trust, it is only going to get better.

John Dorsey is a lot deeper than some old football scruff who sees a big, fast guy, who looks like a football player. He's deeper. Good grief.

I just answered what he said he couldn't figure out.

Hmmmm. I thought he couldn't understand why it upset people because Dorsey was right.

Because people are afraid of what they don't understand?


I makes sense to me. If people who have been good have had various measurables, it stands to chance a prospect with similar measurables stands a chance to be the same type of player.

The thing you can't measure is heart and desire. That is just a gut call. Dorsey's call.

Depo just gives information. This guy has a chance, this guy is a lesser chance, or no chance.

If everybody agrees, he is on the board, if they don't, they probably have a deeper discussion as to the why's.

That is what a good team does.

I never said that trading Ogbah for Murray got us a better player. I said that I wasn't fond of the trade more than once. What I AM saying is that Dorsey has gotten us a lot of players that are better than the guys Sashi brought in and that guys like you and Memphis continue to glorify Sashi and throw shade at Dorsey.

You are right that I am transparent. Thank you. I don't try and deceive posters like some others. I try and be as truthful as I can and never attempt to mislead others. Not all can say that.

For example, there was a guy who I imagine wet himself the other day rushing to his keyboard to post an article where Hue made all kinds of crazy comments about how he was responsible for the team's turnaround. He edited the post and bolded Hue's comments and explained that he did so to point out the ridiculousness of Hue Jackson.

Not long afterwards, a poster said something like "this has to be an April Fool's joke, right? The OP responds that it might be because he realized that it was indeed April Fools Day. He then took another jab at Hue anyway.

The revealing part is that he realized that he was in error and removed many of his comments and changed them to other comments. Of course, instead of admitting he made a mistake and was duped.........he unchecked the "Mark as Edited" boxes on both posts to make it look like he never made those absurd comments in the first place.

That's called purposely deceiving other posters. There are "some" posters who do that on a regular basis.

Speaking of that...........I just pasted a large number of comments from "some" posters who said things about Jarvis Landry and are now claiming that "some" posters are misrepresenting their stances on the matter. I could post them for "some" posters on the Landry thread if "some" posters so wish. They are rather revealing.

I don't know if we got the better player, I am pretty sure Dorsey got the guy that he thought fit better.

Ogbah was 103 out of 110 players in pass rush productivity last year according to PFF.

Link

I don't know enough about Murray to say who got the better deal. I even said that I wasn't fond of this trade. My point, which was misrepresented was that Dorsey has acquired better players than the ones that were here.

My post was more a commentary on/play off of the better player topic than an argument.

Dorsey has said he wants more pass rush. Ogbah wasn't great at that. Other players fit how he wants to attack things better, it would seem.

I know. I was just clarifying my earlier comment. My ire wasn't directed towards you. I apologize if it came across that way.

Looks to me like he can't understand why everyone keeps bringing it up.

You may want to look at this part again:

No clue .. i’m Not. Coffee drinker ... ..

Thanks for the reply ... appreciatte it ...

I think we agree for the most part ...

I see why u would think based off what i say that I blame him for results ... i don’t blame him at all ... i see why u think i am ... when i respond to posters like Peen and others that give him a ton of credit for what the talent we have i come off as blaming depo when i’m not ... i’m Just pointing out that Dorsey is responsible for this turn around in talent ....

Analytics has its place .... no doubt ... lets see if Purp or if peen wants to partake if they can show me how .... i actuallyhipe Memph replies ... he knows way more about this stuff than I do ... and i really do want to learn ... i just dont see it ...

And its just not Dorsey ... he brought in his boys from GB and were OUTWORKING EVERYONE .... i read that after last years draft .... that really impressed the hell out of me ...

According to the article by Seth Wickersham, the analytics department had very little say in the last year's draft. He said it was a "scouts draft" and that Dorsey proclaimed that he "got his way."

Wickersham had inside access to the Browns. The posters on this board who claim otherwise did not. However, if they say it enough times......certain folks will believe it to be true.

With that said, I believe in analytics. Probably just not in the same way others do. I can explain if anyone is interested in having a reasonable conversation.

Thanks for the info ... it’ll take me awhile to digest it ... i’mnot that smart and that needs to “soak” in for me to understand it ....

PLEASE in ENGLISH ... explain to me how it helps make personal decisions ... i either missed the part or that part wasn’t in there in your extremely educational post for this novice ...

I’ll be Waiting bro ... very interested to see how it helps in personal decisions ...

Thanks again for the info bro ...

I’l lbe coming to Charleston in two weeks ... maybe we can get together and we can have an in depth convo about it my friend .... i’ll be in touch and see if we can hook up ...

U have NO CLUE what your talking about ... NONE ... your ASSuming u do ...

EDUCATE ME my friend ... i’mopen minded and willing to learn ... PLEASE TELL ME HOW WHAT DEPO DOES HELPS IN PERSONAL DECISIONS ....

And peen... he STUNK in his last 3 stops in baseball ... THATS A FACT ... prove me wrong ...

Now 3 or 4 years in I’m suppose to believe he’s the best in football when theres been dudes we’ve never heard of doing it for a decade or so IN FOOTBALL ...

Your talking out your butt bro ... my butt should be getting paid way more than yours when it comes to this ... *LOL* ...

I admit i dont know ...u somehow JUST KNOW ... and u know it my friend ... go read what I ACTUALLY SAID not what u ASSume i said ...

Thanks ... that makes sense to me ...

I hope one of the folks on the other side can educate me as to how analytics (actually Pete has it right ... in baseball the personal stats were the Sabermetrics not analytics ... that just became the “catch”phrase for all of it ... ) ...

I KNOW how it worked in baseball ..and i just don’t see how it works in football for making personal decisions ...

I am a novice with this stuff that wants to learn ... ABOUT EVERYTHING analytics ... i will be shocked if i’m ever educated as to how it helps in personal decisions ... my guess is those that think it helps in personal decisions actually come to my side on that aspect of it ...

We’ll see and i am hoping to learn a lot in this convo ...

Why are we arguing about this? Personnel, I think you mean Diam lol.

Original point: Sashi, Hue, Dep - who built a great farm system with the mets by the way - what matters is now. Dorsey got us a QB and has been tremendous in building this team.

Sashi and Hue...... who cares????

I was referring to your obvious double standard.

That's all well and good. However, Mayfield is an analytics dream.

Also, here's the reasoning given for drafting Ward...



That's analytics for you.

Dorsey may have "got his way" but analytics played a large role in our draft last year.

I am wondering if getting rid of two coaches was another "analytics dream" as well. Not nearly as snarky as it sounds. Is this stuff used for coaching performance, game time decisions and calls, whatever? It seems to measure everything else, so is coaching performance part of that?

I really wish Ogbah well. Liked his game.

Thanks for fascinating breakdown in the post. Much luck to you. Some answers remain bigger than others. Yours seem to be among these.

I stayed pretty High Level in my last post. And I realize it probably created more questions than answers. Perhaps I will make a new thread just about Analytics. Because it is just too much to get into for one little post. And I will need some time to organize my thoughts. Maybe grab some links to help...etc.

The math involved with the algorithms in predictive analytics is way past Algebra and using high level Calculus, Set Theory, Differential Equations, Probability Theory, and a few others. There is a lot of machine learning involved. So to get a description more granular will take some time.

Think about the task of predicting the weather. Think about all of the variables involved with that. So much physics and fluid dynamics involved. The topography of the land. etc.

And while predicting 10+ days out is a little bit of a crap shoot...as you get closer to the day...they have hourly forecasts that are pretty much on the money. This is analytics at work.

I will look for your call!! I of course will be busy on Easter Day...But outside of that Sunday....will jump at the chance to hook up for a drink (or two or three...lol) Would be great to catch up...it has been...what...15-17 years??? Dang...that is too long...

I will love anything about analytics u can teach me ... but please be specific about how it helps in personal decisions .... thats the main thingi’m looking for ...

I asked a specific question for a reason .... last year it came down to Bake vs Sam for the #1 overall i believe ... and i see no way an equation comparing those two could have helped or help predict long term success when u consider all the variables and differing circumstances .... one of the menZas said above that Bake was an analytics dream but he didn’t answer my question he just threw out an all encompassing statement ... hopefully Purp, Grimm, Peen or Memph(he seems to really know this stuff) or anyone else can educate me on how it helps w/o just telling me its so and not just telling me why Bake is an analytics dream (based off the stats any 5 year old could do that ... but theres been plenty of “analytics dreams” coming out of college that just haven’t panned out) and compare Bake to Sam or any other players they’d like to contrast one player vs another player on ..

I also would love to know how an equation would help determine the long term success and whose better for your team based off what they did over the previous few years between Williams and Futchess ... they had two entirely different roles, played in two entirely different systems and played with two entirely different QB’s and supporting casts .... in this case to me it would depend on what type of a role your looking for your team to filland how much cash u had to spend .... or Williams vs Perriman ... they are both speed guys .... how would analytics help in that decision as again the variables are off the charts different ...

I just don’t see how equations can help there .... in baseball its a lot simplier .... there’s not near as many variables ... u can figure out how Mike Trout hit against right handed pitchers in day games at home ... there’s not near as many variables and there’s way more data ....

Will look forward to your post either way ... as i love learning and i’m A complete novice at this stuff ... i am not very smart and it takes me time to absorb things but i do love math and took calculus1 and 2 as electives in college .. LOVE THE LOGIC of it and NUMBERS AREN’T FOR LOSERS ... *LOL* ...

I’ll be coming with my g/f, she’s coming up from NY to go to my 17 year old nephews graduation from Parris Island a week from today and she loves going to to the beach just to walk ... my two youngest nephews may be in tow also as there off for the week and they may limit me to one drink ... can’t set a bad example for the youngins ... they may not wanna go in the oceam so they may not wanna come ... i’ll be in touch when we figure out what day were going to come ...

U ever heard of Edibo Island ... someone here said its an awesome place to spend a week ... ocean is close no matter where u are as its a small isle that is very slow paced ... ever heard of it? ...

You're making things up again. I'm out.

I'm not making things up again. When have I ever made anything up? SMH. It's just that when facts don't fit the narrative you wish to portray, you ignore them.

Really? All you have to do is read the board...

Hi

I asked questions ... thats not arguing ... and i’m not arguing with peen ... i’m EDUCATING him ...
*L* ...



BITE ME ... u knew what i meant ... *L* ...



pitching wise I’d agree ... position players wise ... not so much .. and how’d he do in SD and LA ... granted they were short stints cause he STUNK SO BAD ... he took over a playoff caliber team in LA and left them in the basement ... the Mets had a ton of cash and some decent players when he got there .. not sure they were looking for him to JUST BUILD THE FARM SYSTEM but i could be wrong ...

How many WS rings did he or has that great farm system he built in NY won so far? ...

In case your wondering this isn’t arguing its once again EDUCATING ... *LOL* ...



I don’t ... NEVER DID ... i went after the Sashi guys cause i got sick of watching both sides RUIN THREADS for a year + and it had gottten way to one sided ... I stood COMPLETELY out of it until 3 or 4 months after sashi was gone ... folks don’t remember but i even started a Thank u Sashi thread a few weeks after he got his ass canned ... I’m actually grateful to both of them as they are the first chapter in how we arrived here .. i am also EXTREMELY GRATEFUL to Andy Reid for forcing King John out of KC after the draft so he could just be sitting there waiting for us ... Thanks Andy ....

Don’t u just love it when things work out like that ... lord only knows we were overdue ... not sure if u noticed ... but i’m A wee bit excited about this upcoming season .. just a wee bit ... *L* ...

I’m over my little snit ... i channeled Pit and just wouldn’t let that bone go for far too long ... now i’m Over it and on to HOW DOES ANALYTICS HELP IN PLAYER AQUISITION decisions ... did i spell player aquisition correctly bro ... *LOL* ...

Stick with hockey my friend .... and

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo A .... *L*

I get what you're saying. I think.

My take on it is that Dorsey selected Baker and Ward based off of his observations, scouting, film, etc. He did not rely on reports and metrics. He has even said that he has little use for analytics.

Now, as you said, Baker and Ward score high on analytics. No one can argue that.

Because Dorsey, through his own non-analytic approach, ended up at the same place that analytics would have taken him does not mean he used analytics. Not in the slightest.

When I drive somewhere, I end up exactly where my GPS would have taken me. That does not mean I used my GPS.

That's a fair point.

My point got muddled some. Choosing Ward over another corner or identifying Ward as a shutdown corner very well may have been decided by Dorsey's football eyes. But choosing Ward over say Chubb because of what was said post draft, that was based on analytics.

Where did you hear that Dorsey ha a "non-analytic" approach??? When he first got here, he did say they would rely less on analytics...but that is not the same thing. Dorsey's use of analytics is geared in a different direction than Sashi. He asks different and possibly better questions. He values some analytics more than others as Sashi valued some over others.

If you think Dorsey doesn't use analytics, you haven't been paying attention to what he says. Analytics references are there. (I am sure that now you want me to find the quotes and show you...well I would love to, but do not have the time today...so google it for yourself..)

Do you have inside information? If not, do you have a link from someone who had inside access to the draft process? And are you calling Seth Wickersham [who did have inside access] a liar?

I want to hear these "facts."

I think analytics played a part but to what degree?....I don't know. However, as much as Mayfield was absolutely an analytics darling, it should be pointed out the Dorsey was seemingly on Mayfield inbetween his time in KC and CLE. There was some information out there that Drosey had gone to see Mayfield play like 5 or 6 times. And he hired Scot McCloughan as a consultant who publicly went on record saying Mayfield was the best QB. So, I have to give Dorsey the credit here. If there were any detractors in Berea that didn't like Mayfield, maybe Dorsey leaned on DePodesta and Healy with additional information. And yes, Ward was also an analytics daring too. So I think it was one of those situations where football guys and analytics was a happy marriage re: Mayfield and MAYBE Ward.

The funny thing is about the Mayfield pick was that the Rosen and Darnold truthers on here refused to see Dorsey's visits to Oklahoma and Scot McC being hired as any evidence that Baker was in serious contention all because of some flag-planting and crotch grabbing.

Now?....

Pete, I can provide a quote that says that last year's draft was a "scouts" draft w/very little input from the analytics department. It comes from a guy who actually had inside access to the Browns.

BTW. Reading post draft reviews of the draft, many felt the Ward pick was more of a surprise than Baker. That pick went under the radar because of the first pick. I think many had us pegged for Chubb or a trade out.