DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ogbah

You said a lot of things and you did make a lot of things up. You were not told that you made that particular statement up. Stop deceiving people!!!

What?

I'm not making anything up. I'm not deceiving anyone. You and diam need to stop whatever vendetta you seem to have. It's ridiculous.

We've already been through this. I proved that you were making things up. I let you off the hook when you whined and what do you do...............but start the BS up all over again. I'm out because I'm sick of this Merry-Go-Round.

No you didn't. You would have to be making that up to prove the lie you made. The Merry-Go-Round would stop when you end your antics. You're spinning it.

j/c:

Does anyone else hear "Pop goes the Weasel" going off in their heads now?

smh.

it's all good.
Sort of.

I agree. The ridiculousness of this whole thing has to be driving people crazy. Im not sure why they feel the need to act the way they do. I try to ignore them but when they continually attack your character and do the exact things they claim others do it's not easy.

Heard the PFF guys talking and they made what I thought was an interesting comment about the oline. They something along the lines of: If you go from a poor to an average oline, it has much more impact on your team than going from avarage to very good.

I can see that kind of information being useful. You have an olineman and a safety graded about the sam in the draft. How do oyu decide which one to pick? Knowing that information for all the positions cnbe very helpful.

Dorsey may have used that in the Zeitler from Vernon trade.
Going from a really good RG to an average RG won't hurt us as much as going from an slightly below average DE turning into a slightly above average DE helps us.

At least u tried ... thanks for that ...

I just don’t see how much it can help in player aquisition ... hopefully someone can show me the light ... u tried and it was logical ... i appreciatte that ... unfortunatley it didn’t help me much ...

At least we agree we have NO CLUE how much its used in player aquisition ...

How would u use it to supplement talent evaluation .... any chance u can give me an example? ... not being snarky .. I seriously want to understand how it can be used as a tool ...

we agree ... the tape, scouts, talking to people who have coached and know dude is the majority of it ... i would like to know how analytics could be used as a took when it comes to evaluating a player ...

Go to the OBJ thread and read the long article Memphis just posted about how the Browns acquired OBJ. See if there was any mention of the analytics team. You can note that the Kitchens was invited to sit-in on the discussions, but the deal was done by two long-term friends in Dorsey and Gettleman.

It's funny you make fun of people for enjoying analytics in football on one hand then need people to explain analytics to you on the other.

As I said, I would use it as a supplement, but it would not be the driving force of the evaluations.

Think about it........why do you think teams measure things like the 40, the cone drills, high and long jumps, 10-yard splits, bench? You are looking at measurables. You can compare them to guys who already tried out in the league. Your charts can identify which guys are more likely to succeed or fail.

I don't want to get into a long, long thing here because this thread has become absurd, but using analytics to value guys by position is also helpful. What is the value of SS vs a corner? A RG vs a 1 or 2 down LBer? A slot receiver vs a 3rd down RB? What positions are on the field more? Which positions impact games more? What is the long-term value of each position?

I could go on and on, but the point is that you want to use every available tool to give you and edge over your competitor and to minimize mistakes. Like I said, I used them in education all the time. You give them a diagnostic test at the beginning of the year and then set up individualized bench-marks for each student. You test them again at predetermined intervals, review the new data and compare it to your goals that you set in your benchmarks. You revise the plan if needed.

Is that more important than the actual day-to-day teaching? No, but it is another tool in a teacher's bag to help each student reach his fullest potential.

So, while I think some people are way off their rocker pretending that Dorsey's moves are being driven by analytics, I wouldn't be surprised if he is utilizing some of this information as a "tool."

Nice post, and I agree, and also think that is the primary way we are operating. I don't think Depo as an example sits down and watches a lot of tape. He may sit and watch some as Dorsey or whoever is watching just out of curiosity. He seems like a guy who likes to learn. I am sure Dorsey and others ask Depo to explain how he comes up with his numbers, curiosity again.

The football guys do their thing. Depo does his thing. If the tape grades and Depos grades mesh, all is cool. If there is a big variation, it might give everybody something to talk about. That is a good thing.

Depos numbers probably come in to play a bit more in the lower rounds where he might have a player or two that grade out very high. Something the scouts look in to with tape evaluation.

I think we(as a board) argue way to much over all of this. I think there is great respect in the front office about what everybody does and how they mesh the two to make the best decisions possible.

I want to add something because it's been bugging me a little bit. There is this back-and-forth about how much the Browns are leaning on analytics. I think a lot of the moves are not good examples of analytics having a significant role in what we are doing.

It was also mentioned that Baker was an analytic's dream or something like that. I question that line of thinking. Sorry Cap, I know you said no one would question it......but, I kinda do question it.

Wouldn't analytics make use of certain measurables? Let's look at a couple:

Height? Age? Type of collegiate offense? Conference? Speed? Questionable incidents?

I don't think that Baker is at the top of the analytical charts. In fact, I think the opposite is true.

Leadership. Moxy. Confidence. Inner-drive. Plays faster than his times suggest.

I think that Baker was chosen by Dorsey and his football guys and not the analytics department.

I remember reading about Baker having a high grade.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/dr...-1-overall-pick

I think Baker checked off all the boxes with whoever was providing input.

I agree with that ... here’s the thing ... to me, thats common sense ... i don’t need analytics to tell me that ...

We had no pass rush opposite MG ... last year i thought Ogbah may be able to do it the way he came on the 2nd half of his rookie season ... then in year two he was hurt a lot .... he proved last year he w2asn’t the man for that .... we needed another legite pass rusher and we had none but we had someone to fill in for Zietler .... and its always been known that rush DE’s are a lot harder to come by than decent guards ..... to me that’s common sense ....

Same with the Ward/Chubb ... CB/DE debate last year ... shutdown corners and rush DE’s are two of the hardest positions to fill ... we had no even decent CB’s heading into the draft and we had MG and possibly Ogbah as rush DE’s and NO ONE at CB ... NO ONE ... then u add in the fact we had a DC last year that needed good press corners for the overly aggressive schemes he ran ...

I was the first and one of the very very very few that said we should take Ward over Chubb based off our NEEDS and the personal we had .... and i didnt even know what a stud Ward was ... i didn’t need one bit of analytics to come to that conclusion ... to me it was simply “common sense” ....

Same with Bake ... Dorsey was said to be in love with him since long before he was hired by us ... yet now some want to spin that into analytics played a part in that .... i just don’t see it that way ....

There’s so many variables in football .... i just don’t see how valuable it can be in player aquisition but I have an open mind and would love to be shown the light ...

Good article and piece of evidence.

Like everything else, it's just a piece of the puzzle, maybe more pieces. Probably not the most linear analogy as the analytics pieces use the scouting pieces. Scouting is the base. Without the scouting, there's nothing to analyze. Obviously, it's a bit more complicated than a puzzle. There are puzzles within puzzles, and you're making up the big picture as you go. Analytics can help you look for patterns that have worked before and select pieces that best fit them. Scouting is still providing the pieces you are working with.

I have an open mind and want to learn ... that used to be a good thing ... i dont understand something so i ask questions ... questions u can’t answer .... go figure ....

I never made fun of people wanting to enjoy analytics ... i questioned two things ....

1. How much is analytics used in player aquisition .... i don’t see how its a very useful tool in that aspect of the game ...

2.. U NOR ANYONE ON HERE HAS ANY CLUE HOW MUCH ITS USED TO HELP IN OUR PLAYER AQUISTION .... yet u act like u know it all ...

I’ll keep searching for answers ... its too bad you’d rather be a snarky “”fill in the adjective” than actually contribute to someone seeking to learn ...

Questioning someone is not making fun of someone ... me saying the analytice department got a lot better when KJ came on board when it comes to PLAYER AQUISTION is a A FACT ... just cause u don’t like that FACT doesn’t matter ... a wiser man than me once said ...

FACTS DON’T HAVE FEELINGS ....

I think it bolstered his opinion.

No doubt I don't think Dorsey didn't like Baker but analytics changed his mind. I don't think anybody is saying that.

It just made the decision a whole lot easier and I recall reading that Depo also had Bake rated the #1 QB.

It's a wonderful thing when it all meshes together.

Thanks .... i never really thought of the measurables we use as analytics .... never looked at it that way ...

Food for thought for me ... thanks for the reply ....

That makes sense .... i could get on board with that .... more food for thought for me ...

Thanks bro ,,,,

You can apply values to leadership, moxy, confidence, etc. and incorporate them into an analytical formula. You'd have to have the "football guys" help in assigning weights and values.

The "knocks" on Baker could be things that Dorsey (and by extension "the formula") places less weight on.

The analytics aren't working in a vacuum. With regards to player acquisition, they are still working for Dorsey.

In the words of Dorsey, it's a "collaborative effort." All hands on deck.

U and I are arguing over something totally different .. at least my argument is over something totally different ... *L* ...

- u said we have the best analytics department in football ... U HAVE NO CLUE .... NONE ...

I imagine u say that cause of Depo ... well Depo is NEW TO FOOTBALL ANALYTICS and there’s been guys out there doing probably for over a decade now ....

AND

After Oakland Depo FAILED MISERABLY in baseball and u expect me to believe just BECAUSE he is the best in football at it ...

Sorry bro ... that’s something we’ll NEVER KNOW ... we could be the best or the worst for all we know .... your basing it OFF AIR .... nothing more ...

One thing we do know .. if analytics does play as big a roll in player aquisition as u THINK it does ... that department got a hell of a lot better when Dorsey, Wolff and dang ... can’t think of the other dude from GB that came over .. THATS A FACT ... and leads me to believe ...

I have an open mind and would love to learn how analytics can play a roll in player aquisition ... a few of the last responses are helping me in that area .... good luck convincing me u have any clue just how good our analytics department is .... WE HAVE NO CLUE ...

As for your assessment there ... i think the analytics with Bake CONFIRMED what Dorsey KNEW ... i don’t think it bolstered anything ...

I don’t think there was a shot in hell analytics was pulling KJ away from Bake ... thankfully it APPEARS the analytics came to the same conclusion ....

I think you're confusing yourself...

Analytics definition: the systematic computational analysis of data or statistics

I would think the "football" aspect of things looks at the hard data. Height, how fast the ball zips, quickness, etc... that's what the combine is all about. I'm sure some of those numbers plays into analytics.

It was said that we were down to choosing between Josh Allen and Baker Mayfield for the 1st pick.

Josh Allen: Football pick
Baker Mayfield: Analytic pick

I couldn't tell you how or why we ended up choosing Baker over Allen. It was said that Dorsey loved Josh Allen as well. An analytics department would be all over Mayfield. But there were some attributes the football guys would love as well...

I'd have to agree with Memphis that Baker was probably the top Football and Analytic pick.

I would like to add that Dorsey without a doubt, 100% uses analytics.

Dorsey may have been the guy making all the picks, but that's not say analytics wasn't involved in the process. Keep in mind I posted a quote from Williams earlier about the pick of Ward and the use of analytics.

Analytics didn't die when Sashi left, they're still alive and well. I couldn't tell you to what extent, but it's not like we did a 180.

I think you are underestimating the football side. There's more overlap than both sides are seeing. It's not an either/or proposition. The sides need (should use) each other to reach the optimal results. The analytics side needs the football side more than vice versa. The analytics side can help the football side, though.

Analytics is not something I have a firm grasp of.. But, it's like if I were a carpenter (no laughing) and I had a hammer and a saw and a chisel,, Those are my tools. Analytics is just another tool in the tool chest.

It won't solve all your problems, but could assist.

No. I agree with what you're saying... Analytics is probably used by most teams. The issue is how much influence...

I think while Baker was an analytical dream, Allen was an analytical nightmare.

How much analytics impacted the pick is unknown.

The person using it also has to have a fairly firm grasp on "carpentry" (football) in general.

It depends on what analytics you are using. There's not just one way.

Most groups that use "analytics" have their own proprietary formulas. PFF is just one flavor of analytics.

PFF's stuff can have some value. I question the underlying football knowledge they base their work upon at times, though.

Having someone like Dorsey to "Steer"/"Harness" the Browns' analytics department is nice for us.

So the short kid who played in a conference that didn't have any defense was the analytics pick?

I'm on board with what you're saying...


I also am not sure if there's a "type" that would steer Allen to be an analytical pick. I think analytics might make you feel better about the pick to a degree or might make you feel worse.

I don't know that there are solely analytical draft picks. I would speculate that there might be solely "football" picks, however. For me, that's just using old school techniques... looking at a guy, talking to a guy, etc. Analytics came about because teams were trying to gain an edge on the competition... moneyball, astroball, deflategate (j/k)...

I would be curious to know our analytical involvement prior to the hiring of Sashi Brown.

I guess if that's how you want to label him, then precisely.

Both of the things I mentioned are facts and would seem to make him not an analytics wonder boy.

One brand of analytics' (PFF's), at least.

*shrug*

A type that emphasized physical traits and compensated for surrounding talent, I imagine.

Both the things you mentioned weren't contingent on him being "an analytics dream."

You don't always have to try and argue, you know....