DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 25 Decisions That Transformed The Cleveland Browns

Yes, I agree completely. Whether you agreed with the decisions at the time or not, liked the results or not, they were made and helped to form the current team. I don't get the posturing as if Dorsey isn't getting his fare share of credit, he certainly is. Or the notion that he is somehow responsible for all of the moves, which he certainly is not. For example, like it or not, the 0-16 season has to factor in, as does the hiring of Hue. Without the 0-16 season, there may be no Baker and there may be no Dorsey. It's a crazy, and as you say, a unique and unprecedented situation and I think your analogy of the Butterfly Effect is spot on.

Dorsey certainly factors in in a big way, but he is not the only factor by any stretch. If you think he is, fine, but that's not the end of the discussion, maybe just your part in it. That's up to you. There were decisions that predate Dorsey, and since we don't live in a vacuum, they carry weight.

It's not the point. It's a point. The point is that there are many factors and decisions that brought us where we are today. Dorsey's contributions are many and well credited. But he isn't the only factor. For example, the decision to hire him has to be a decision that weighs heavily. The drafting of Myles is a factor. Hue's ineptitude that destroyed Kizer's chances to even remain as a backup is a factor. His inability to win even a single game is a factor. That's the fascinating part of the discussion, all these factors have led to this.

This hapless team that for so many years suffered from ineptitude, greed, terrible luck, god-awful decision making, horrible drafting and so on, finally, because of a couple dozen decisions or so, has a chance to not just turn it around, but become a force in the league for years to come. That's special. It may be impossible to point a finger at all the decisions that factor in, but the 25 or so listed is a good starting point.

If you don't see it that way, that's cool, but to say it's just about the GM or the picks is at the least myopic, IMO. It doesn't really matter what another GM would have done, because that is not a factor. And of course as we move farther forward in time, Dorsey's decisions will weigh more heavily on the outcomes, and the decisions of the past will have less significance, but for now, we're here because of all of these things that have happened and the decisions made concerning them.

I apologize for voicing my opinion and that it differs from you. I'll leave the thread for you and device now. Enjoy.

No need to apologize or be petulant, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I certainly don't care if it differs from mine. Since you don't feel there's any need to contribute to the conversation because you think there's only one decision that matters, it's probably not a thread you'd want to participate in anyway. I hope we can still be friends.

Thanks for posting these, Cal.

I've been reading most of these over the past few weeks and it's good stuff. The only two at this point that seem a bit inconsistent is the signing of Hunt and then one of them was "Choosing Chubb as the RB of the future". The latter, as a result of Hunt, may not actually come to fruition. At this point in time I think Hunt is the better RB and if that continues to be the case, then Chubb may not be the RB of the future...Hunt will be.

We'll see.

OR a statue, a stadium, a plaque, a franchise, who knows how far it might go. I think he is a catalyst who is hard to over-value. He causes things to happen, things happen around him, and yet he seems to float above it all without getting used up or buried by those moves. Pluto might find another book in this.

I want to watch this draft especially.

Yep... sure.


and j/c I feel like there are some who are misinterpreting what this thread is all about...

It's a process.

Dorsey might be the most important (by far) decision ... but that's not the only step in the process, because some (like passing on Wentz) impact the team, draft capital and W/L record (probably) so much that we don't know if Dorsey would be here without the decision to pass on Wentz.

Many of these decisions are decisions Dorsey made - so the decision to hire Dorsey is closely entwined with most every decision after he was appointed. . . . but that still makes them separate decisions worth reviewing. And heck - even the Osweiller trade which I forgot about and netted us Nick Chubb was another really significant step in the process/decision making.

Nice reads all.

Deeming Denzel Ward worthy of a top-five pick: Transforming the Cleveland Browns, Decision No. 4

Interesting point. I'm hoping we stick with them both, they would make one hell of a two-headed monster.

Yeah, Device's Butterfly Effect analogy really resonated with met.

And like you said, the hiring of Hue was important to this process...

Imagine going back to 2016 and hiring McDermott as HC instead of Hue. The FO and HC are on the same page. Perhaps some of the quarterbacks here are different. And maybe we don't lose as many games and it's enough for the HC and Front Office to keep their respective jobs. That means Dorsey isn't here most likely...

A series of events had to take place for us to get here. I'm sure you could play these things out with other teams and some will obviously downplay the significance of some of our moves. However, consider we've been the doormat for years with an awful reputation and all of a sudden people are discussing us as one of the favorites to win the division and then some. Everything is just magnified here.

And I mean I'm sure you could go as far back as Haslam buying the team, but that might be a bit extreme. I don't know that the "starting point" is 2016, but there's obvious reasons to me to start there...

I look at it this way. I’ve done some stupid stuff in my life. I’ve had my heartbroken. I’ve made a few poor choices along the way with girls, jobs, general focus on college courses... etc. Said some stupid things that shouldn’t have been said.... the list could go on. As it could for most of us as we look back at our lives.
The thing is I don’t regret any of it. Why? Because they’ve made me the person I am today, and I’m good with who I am today. If my heart hadn’t been broken at 23 I wouldn’t be as good of a partner to my girlfriend at 46. If I had stayed more focused in college I’d be working in the world of advertising. Nothing wrong with that... except I’d have moved to a different city, working in a different world, meeting different people.... I love my current life. I love my friends. I love my girlfriend. And I’m having an incredible time building fantastical art that’s enjoyed by thousands.... which is a million times more rewarding than any advertising gig could provide.
My choices. My hurdles made me who I am.

The Browns are today what they are today because of all their hurdles. Thank you Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark, Holmgren, the thousand QBs, the countless head coaches, Sashi, Hue, etc, and now Dorsey. (Especially Dorsey)
We should all look back and take it for what it is. The past... the past that has lead to today. Which if you ask me is a pretty exciting place to be.

Conversely, if we would have had competent people in charge we may have drafted Aaron Rogers in 2005, surrounded him with good talent and had five Lombardi trophies in Cleveland right now. So there's that.

I've never really thought of making a list of people to thank for sucking so bad.

Sure but we could kvetch about that until we’re blue in the face. Spilt milk.
Today forward we are where we are for our past. Onward. Upward.

And I'm all for that. I mean what choice do we have, right?

My point really wasn't to belabor the past. My point was that trying to make the argument that we should be thankful that we didn't succeed earlier seems a bit contrived.

I mean life isn't like football. In the NFL you build and coach a team to win. Your goal is single minded. It's to win a championship. Life is a journey where we all have to find our own path.

I just believe that trying to make a point that going through twenty years of misery is something we should thank everyone who came before the current leadership isn't a strong point of debate.

I'm 60 years old. While I agree with you we can't change the past, I would much preferred that my last 15 years of fandom had been spent cheering on a Browns team with championship caliber potential. I'm certainly not willing to be thankful that past regimes failed so miserably at trying to make that happen.

Definitely understand your point too.
It’s sucked sucking for 20 years. I wish we’d come out of the gates in ‘99 firing. Unfortunately it didn’t work out that way.
With that, our resolve as fans has grown. Without gravity we’d lose muscle mass. We need heat and cold to temper steel. Adversity has made us a rabid fan base waiting for our chance...
So I’m not thanking the crappy leadership of the past as so much as I am giving thanks to where we are now.
NIAYH... Now is all you have.
We’re about to have fun.

Yea but nobody would click on that to read it.

JC

We could go all the way back to the return... and blame Jax and Carolina's immediate success as the reason why the NFL gave us the screw job, valid point, but there's no bearing on today. Or is there? Obviously that just creates scenarios we could never imagine, so why bother?

The "here and now" obviously begins with new ownership. A brash billionaire that thought he had the Midas touch and everything would turn to gold. Bet he never in his life could have conceived what his personal life, professional life, and the Cleveland Browns would turn into over the next three years.

He learned his lessons slow because he was sold a bill of goods by others he confided in around the league, many of which he hired. He thought he would learn "on the job" during this time. The dysfunction in Berea that had it's roots all the way back with the Walrus just continued.

Eventually he saw that he had run out of "knee-jerk" reactions... every one he made going forward would just hinder the team more exponentially than the previous. His first great decision was being sold on bottoming-out. If I was a betting man, I would say that his close relationship with Parcels had a lot to do with that... and his relationship with Parcels began around the time (reportedly) when he stopped confiding in snakes.

Next great decision was hiring Sashi as a "place holder" for when the assets were attractive enough to lure a real GM. Next great decision - keeping Hue. The constant "coaching carousel" wasn't going to fix anything while we were bottoming-out anyway... It would only lead to more dysfunction, chaos, FO turnover and player turnover... during a time when continuity would be the only possible way to fairly judge the talent you have anyway.

Then Jimmy became Mel Gibson in Braveheart... the battle scene. He stands at the front and maintains composure until it burns. "Hold... Hold... HOLD!!" Melodramatic? Indeed. But that's what it reminds me of. He could have cashed in some assets any time during the last four years, but he stayed the course, through some serious agony. Downside - incompetent GM that didn't draft "real players". A downside that didn't matter that much when you were tearing down to the studs anyway... it would be like picking out appliances before you've built the kitchen.

Stacked the chips until we were one of the most attractive opportunities in the history of the league. Don't get me wrong, I love Dorsey, but he wasn't the only one that could have turned this around so quickly. Between draft picks, cap space, a measuring stick that starts at true bottom, and a fan base that will build a statue for you at 7-8-1? Jimmy would have his pick of the litter around the league.

Now, you can say the Dorsey hire was luck, heck, you can say everything that happened was dumb luck and Jimmy played no real part in the turn around. Bottom line, if 1-31 were 12-20, and we were a middling team still with the stigma of constant dysfunction, Dorsey would have laughed on the other end of the line, I don't need a butterfly to know that... So the plan did lead to Dorsey, and we would not have Dorsey without it.

#1 of the 25 Decisions?

Jimmy laying out a brash plan, and finally sticking with it. It took guts, resolve and discipline... and heck, maybe even a little "aw shucks" dumb luck.

Back to the article ......

My guess?

3. Drafting Myles

2. Trading for OBJ

1. Drafting Baker

Unless these are strictly player decisions, which they very well could be, I'd think hiring Dorsey & firing Hue/Haley have to go somewhere near the top.

Every one thus far has been player related. I cannot see any of the 3 I referred to being less important that the 25th decision that transformed the Browns.

Some truth to what you're saying... and I get it...

But in regards to this specific team, we are not talking about 15 years ago. More along the lines within the past 4 years.

If it is strictly player related, then this seems like a sound list.

We've won nothing but 4 prime time games so far. I hate prime time games. I'm always up too late and dragging the next day.

Over by 8:30-9 here. Another reason I love Pacific Coast Time living.

Setting Myles Garrett loose on opposing quarterbacks: Transforming the Cleveland Browns, Decision No. 3 - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/04...ision-no-3.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Myles Garrett has enthralled Browns fans with his love of dinosaurs and animals. For that, his arrival in Cleveland is No. 3 on our list of moves that transformed the Browns. Also, he scares quarterbacks.


Jurassic Myles🦖
✔
@MylesLGarrett
I’m on the way to the dog park... a little late because someone decided to take a poop in the car, and it wasn’t me or jeremy. See y’all soon!

The move: Choose Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett with the first pick in the 2017 NFL Draft.

The context: This was the obvious choice but also greatly discussed before the draft, as reports had the Browns torn between Garrett and North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky. After the Browns traded out of the chance to take a quarterback in 2016, they were prepared to draft one here, but the draft didn’t present an obvious QB pick at No. 1. Trubisky went second after Chicago traded up with San Francisco. The entire league saw Garrett as the top pick, and the Browns settled on the obvious. But it didn’t always feel certain in the days before the first round.

The result: Garrett averaged 1.74 QB hits per game his first two seasons. That ranked third in the league, behind the Rams’ Aaron Donald and the Jaguars’ Yannick Ngakoue. Ranked No. 55 on Pro Football Focus’ list of the best players for 2018, Garrett made his first Pro Bowl after recording 13.5 sacks, which ranked sixth in the league.

Basically, he played like an overall No. 1 pick, while the Browns overworked him as one of two defensive linemen to play more than 1,000 snaps in 2018. With a little more rest, he could get to the quarterback even more often.

The alternative: The real alternative is a world where the Browns don’t land the overall No. 1 pick. At 1-15, the Browns were just slightly worse than the 2-14 San Francisco 49ers in 2016. When the Browns earned their first win in week 15, San Francisco earned its second with a furious rally led by Colin Kaepernick. The 49ers scored 15 points in the final 5:06 to beat the Rams 22-21.

If San Francisco had also finished 1-15, the 49ers would have earned the top pick because of an easier schedule. And Garrett might be a 49er. If the Browns picked No. 2? The Trubisky era might be entering year three here, with Mitch handing off to Saquon Barkley.

The credit: Did Sashi Brown and the front office want Trubisky at some point? Did Hue Jackson desire a QB at No. 1? When it mattered, the Browns made the safe pick and pushed their quarterback decision off another year. In the 16 drafts before the Garrett pick, a quarterback had been the overall No. 1 choice 12 times. Quarterback was tempting. But however the decision-making process went down, Brown, Jackson and the Browns went defense because everyone’s best player in the draft was an edge rusher.

The future: In his two seasons, Garrett is already 12th on the Browns career sacks list with 20.5. By the end of this season, he should be about sixth. In another year, he should be fourth. By the end of his fifth season in Cleveland, a healthy Garrett should be closing in on Clay Matthews’ franchise record of 62 career sacks.

It’s going to cost major bucks to keep him around. But pass rushers are the kind of player worth spending money on. Garrett will be eying an extension soon enough, and the Browns’ cap space will be used to satisfy him.

Then consider the possibilities. The player ranked No. 100 on the NFL’s all-time sack list, Darren Howard, has 67 of them. Thirty-two players have at least 100 career sacks. That’s the kind of production we’re taking about. What Garrett could bring to Cleveland is the kind of pass-rushing production this city has never seen in the modern era of football.

How would you rate the Browns decisions to pick Myles Garrett at No. 1

I'll give you props for calling Myles at 3.

This is the type of situation that makes the discussion fascinating, IMO.

Or we pull what we think Arizona is about to do and we draft Mayfield, trade Trubisky.

However, had we drafted trubisky, perhaps Sashi and Hue are still here...

Had we drafted Trubisky, perhaps he's not seen as an up and coming QB.. but is already labeled a bust.

Trubisky is not good.

Actually I think that’s all he is. Good. Not great. Andy Dalton-esk.
He could prove me wrong. Teams can win a championship with a guy like him. Nick Foles is a classic case. They don’t tend to win multiple championships with just a ‘good’ QB though.

The common denominator to any teams success is QB play...

insert Baker Mayfield.

Bang on!

But enough about QBs.

First of all, Garrett commands attention, and yet still disrupts. I wanted him the whole time leading into that draft.

Not only is he a tremendous athlete who wants to be great, he's high character. A good guy, smart, comes from a good family.

He was the biggest slam dunk for us since Joe Thomas.

Swindling the New York Giants to get Odell Beckham Jr.: Transforming the Cleveland Browns, Decision No. 2 - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/04...ision-no-2.html

By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Over the last five seasons, Odell Beckham Jr. ranks third in the NFL in receiving yards per game, averaging 92.8. In the last five years, starting in 2014, the Browns ranked 20th, 21st, 28th, 22nd and, last year, 14th in passing yards per game.

Beckham is now is Cleveland. Passing game transformation ahead. That’s why the acquisition of OBJ is No. 2 on our list of moves that transformed the Browns.

The move: Acquiring receiver Odell Beckham Jr. for safety Jabrill Peppers, the No. 17 pick in the first round of the 2019 NFL Draft and the No. 95 pick in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft. The trade happened on March 12.

The context: Reading over the trade, I still can’t believe that’s all the Browns gave up for Beckham. Anyway, the context is John Dorsey and Giants general manager Dave Gettleman have known each other for 35 years and Gettleman did his old friend a solid?

The Giants were willing to deal Beckham, despite signing him to a new contract last August. With Beckham’s college receivers coach, Adam Henry, in the same role with the Browns, and one of his best friends, Jarvis Landry, leading the Browns’ receivers room, Cleveland offered a comfortable landing spot. Mary Kay Cabot detailed all of this and more in her behind-the-scenes story on how the deal came together.

The result: The Browns immediately jumped from 30-1 to win the Super Bowl to 14-1. That’s what giving a No. 1 receiver to a young quarterback like Baker Mayfield can do for a team. Beckham gained at least 1,300 yards receiving in each of his first three seasons with the Giants. The Browns have just a single 1,300-yard receiving season (Josh Gordon with 1,646 yards in 2013) in franchise history.

Overall, there have been 195 seasons of 1,300 receiving yards in NFL history. One in Cleveland. Three for Beckham. So the result is the arrival of a receiving talent unlike any in Cleveland history.

The alternative: Dorsey was always going to aggressively upgrade the offense this offseason. There was little doubt about that. Receiver made sense as the top priority. But the free agent receiver options didn’t include a true No. 1. Golden Tate (signed by the Giants to fill the Beckham hole), Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Devin Funchess, John Brown, Randall Cobb and Jamison Crowder were the best options. Williams, a deep threat who burned the Browns while playing for the Chargers last year, was a popular idea for Cleveland, but none of them were close to Beckham level.

So the idea of prying away a top receiver in a trade with a rebuilding team always seemed like the best route for Dorsey. Maybe Tampa Bay’s Mike Evans? Emmanuel Sanders in Denver? The Raiders had traded Amari Cooper last season, and the idea of getting involved with Antonio Brown seemed to bring potential instability. Plus, the Steelers weren’t going to help the Browns.

So Beckham was always the top target. You just didn’t think it was possible.

The credit: I’m not sure two old school guys dealing with each other because they’re buddies is how this league should work. But personal relationships matter. Planting seeds matters. Working angles matters. And I’m pretty sure there’s not another general manager in the league that could have pulled off this trade.

Take a bow, Mr. Dorsey.

The future: Beckham’s contract runs through 2023. That’s five seasons of Beckham in Cleveland. That’s also probably 50 stories about whether he’s happy or not. Assume he is happy. Assume an accurate quarterback, and a great friend beside him, and offensive coaches that will feature him, and a head coach that will let him be himself, will all make Beckham happy.

I’d let concerns about his happiness occupy zero percent of your headspace. He does need to stay healthy.

He missed the first four games of his rookie year in 2014 with a hamstring injury. He missed 12 games in 2017, first with a high ankle sprain and later after fracturing the same ankle. He missed the last four games of last season with a quad injury after he was leg-whipped by a defender.

In five seasons, he’s missed 21 of a possible 80 games. But if he’s on the field, the future for Beckham and the Browns ... well, Gettleman may never get over it.

Nice!

2 for 2.


I'll go ahead and take it from here.... Mayfield #1.