I listen to a lot of sports radio and the NBA channel while driving, and this Leonard story was practically the only story on every channel. For the last 2 weeks, everyone.... save none (including Woj I believe), said that the Clippers were out of the running for Leonard. KW played that beautifully, and I can't imagine the total number of hours and days spent on worthless discussion as to whether he'd sign with the Lakers or the Raptors. All of those insiders look like fools.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Good for the Clippers. Kawhi, PG, Beverley and Williams? Not a bad start. Something tells me they’ll look different next year.
Good to see Danny Green go to the Lakers. They need bodies. I think they should get Cousins too. Also, it’s got to sting losing to the Clippers. You’ve got Lebron, AD and you’re the Lakers, but your best free agent is Danny Green when you had $32m to spend. I like Danny Green, but you all know I thought they needed more (hi how they could still pull off a few other moves).
I think it’s good for the NBA.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Also..........that was a lot to give up for Paul George. Gotta think about that move.
Exactly, that’s a AD-like haul, specifically the five first rounders (4 unprotected). I get he’s an all star, heck there was even talk of him as the MVP for a short period this past year, but he’s the same dude that glossed himself “Playoff P”, missed big shots and got “posterized” by Lillard this year. He also hasn’t been out if the first round in 5 years.
Ultimately, if Kawhi says to get PG, you get PG. And he’s an all star.
Id like to hear your take after it stews a bit.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
I do have to let it "stew" for awhile. My feelings will almost certainly evolve, but here are my initial thoughts.
I'm not surprised by Kawhi's decision. The Clips were always the favorite. I thought Toronto gave themselves a great chance by doing a great job of handling Kawhi's load management and winning the Chip. The Lakers being in it surprised me. Just a 2-3 weeks ago on here, I said they weren't even in the picture and it was just between the Clippers and Raptors. They must have really went hard after Kawhi to even warrant consideration.
What I am less certain about is trading for Paul George. He is a good two-way player who can also shoot it. You are right that he was in the MVP talk for a long time. The shoulder injury hurt his shooting late in the season.
I also think you are right about his playoff performances. That's my real knock on him. I remember a couple of years ago when the Cavs were playing the Pacers and PG failed miserably when the games were on the line. Some of those shots were horrific bricks in clutch time. Thus, I don't really think he is worth such a haul.
On the other hand, players are starting to force their way off of teams and are joining together w/other stars on new teams. That trend will only increase over the next handful of years. You made a good point by saying that if Kawhi wants PG, then you go and get him. And I think Toronto proved you can buy a Chip when the time is right.
I can see more teams going w/this approach rather than the passe idea of building through the draft. Go all-in when you can and try and get the Chip when you can.
One has to wonder what is the fate of franchises in cities like Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City, etc?
Also..........that was a lot to give up for Paul George. Gotta think about that move.
They weren’t getting Kawhi without also getting Paul George. So they are essentially giving up the haul for both players not just George. You basically have to do it.
It’ll be interesting to see what OKC does going forward. My guess is that Westbrook and Adams will be on the move soon.
Also..........that was a lot to give up for Paul George. Gotta think about that move.
They weren’t getting Kawhi without also getting Paul George. So they are essentially giving up the haul for both players not just George. You basically have to do it.
It’ll be interesting to see what OKC does going forward. My guess is that Westbrook and Adams will be on the move soon.
Yeah, that was great negotiating out of Sam Presti. He realized that the Clippers weren't getting Kahwi without PG there, so even though PG requested a trade, he still got a massive haul for him.
Really happy for the Clippers though. Nice to see the "little brother" teams, like the Clippers and Nets get some of the big stars this free agency. Should be a very competitive season this year (finally).
Westbrook is on the trade block. If the Knicks could do something, that would be ideal for the league.
Russ vs the NY Media and delusional Knick fans would be a nightmare if you ask me. I hope he stays in OKC, but it's clear that the window to win there with him may be just about closed. I don't know how they can really build a team around him, because he's good enough to get that team to the western conference playoffs on his own.
Since the Kawhi/PG bomb dropped on Friday night, I only read the posts here. I listened to a bit this morning from Fox Sports and heard some cool tidbits.
1. After Kawhi convinced PG to team up, Paul went to the OKC GM (Sam Presti) and demanded a trade like Kyrie/AD did. Sam didn't want it to play out in the media, so he did the trade ASAP. 2. Kawhi and his people warned the three teams to not say a word and the two teams that leaked comments didn't get him (Magic was talking everywhere and someone within the Lakers leaked the location they met with him. And with Toronto, it was leaked he was returning on that flight and which hotel was he was going to). 3. Could Kawhi have been sabotaging the Lakers KNOWING he was going to the Clippers? As Broussard reported, Kawhi's priorities were southern California, needs a 2nd star partner and didn't want to take a backseat to anyone. Lebron and AD were always going to outshine Kawhi and he said he didn't want to build a super team, so then why string the Lakers along? Maybe he needed the Lakers as a backup plan just in case the PG trade fell through, but think about it, they're in the same conference, play in the same building and they're the less accomplished little brother in town. By holding them hostage, they couldn't get Kyrie, Jimmy Butler or and of the tier 2 free agents. Interesting. 4. I wasn't aware Jerry West's middle initial was "F" because he's the all time front office GOAT of the NBA. Holy Toledo! College HOF, Pro HOF, the logo, built the showtime Lakers, built the Shaq/Kobe era, took Memphis to their three best years, built the Warriors+KD dynasty and now building the Clippers. Damn.
Also, check out Sam Presti's resume (yes, he got acquired them, but...):
Traded James Harden away Let Kevin Durrant walk for nothing Traded Serge Ibaka away (for Oladipo) Traded Victor Oladipo away Traded Paul George away
And now Westbrook is about to be traded because Presti tried to trade him too. Sure, he's has a ton of picks coming for the PG trade, but that depends on where those picks land. If I were a Thunder fan, I'd be ticked off.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Traded James Harden away Let Kevin Durrant walk for nothing Traded Serge Ibaka away (for Oladipo) Traded Victor Oladipo away Traded Paul George away
Add Jerami Grant to the list. No, he's not an all star, but he was a 13/5/1/1 guy last season. Shipped to Denver for another first.
The Nuggets won't be in the lottery next season and the Clippers will probably be high contenders for a while, so those firsts could be late rounders. Is that still good?
It's just a matter of time before Westbrook is traded now. People are saying Detroit, I guess that would make them contenders in the East behind Philly and Milwaukee. I'd do it if I were them. Better to go all in than half in.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Presti's biggest misstep was the Harden trade and I think that came from ownership because they didn't want to pay the luxury tax.
He traded Serge Ibaka for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. He traded Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Paul George. He traded Paul George for SGA, Danilo Gallinari, and all the first round picks. That is not a bad transaction history.
I'd put most of the blame for the Thunder's failures on Russell Westbrook. He failed to adjust his playing style for anyone and it chased off Kevin Durant. He's a ball hog who can't shoot from distance.
At this point in time it was the right decision to trade Paul George. The Thunder haven't won a playoff series since Durant left and weren't getting any better. Take the haul and rebuild. It's over.
It's just a matter of time before Westbrook is traded now. People are saying Detroit, I guess that would make them contenders in the East behind Philly and Milwaukee. I'd do it if I were them. Better to go all in than half in.
Do we think Westbrook is good? He seems to do more harm than good and is a stat chaser. His contract is a dumpster fire. The Thunder might have to attach picks to get rid of him.
It's just a matter of time before Westbrook is traded now. People are saying Detroit, I guess that would make them contenders in the East behind Philly and Milwaukee. I'd do it if I were them. Better to go all in than half in.
Do we think Westbrook is good? He seems to do more harm than good and is a stat chaser. His contract is a dumpster fire. The Thunder might have to attach picks to get rid of him.
Is this something that people just regurgitate without watching the games? Westbrook is consistently getting double digit assists. George averaged nearly 30 ppg last year. Adams has improved every year next to Westbrook. Where are other guys not getting theirs because of Westbrook?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
It's just a matter of time before Westbrook is traded now. People are saying Detroit, I guess that would make them contenders in the East behind Philly and Milwaukee. I'd do it if I were them. Better to go all in than half in.
Do we think Westbrook is good? He seems to do more harm than good and is a stat chaser. His contract is a dumpster fire. The Thunder might have to attach picks to get rid of him.
Is this something that people just regurgitate without watching the games? Westbrook is consistently getting double digit assists. George averaged nearly 30 ppg last year. Adams has improved every year next to Westbrook. Where are other guys not getting theirs because of Westbrook?
It's just a matter of time before Westbrook is traded now. People are saying Detroit, I guess that would make them contenders in the East behind Philly and Milwaukee. I'd do it if I were them. Better to go all in than half in.
Do we think Westbrook is good? He seems to do more harm than good and is a stat chaser. His contract is a dumpster fire. The Thunder might have to attach picks to get rid of him.
Is this something that people just regurgitate without watching the games? Westbrook is consistently getting double digit assists. George averaged nearly 30 ppg last year. Adams has improved every year next to Westbrook. Where are other guys not getting theirs because of Westbrook?
Not on the team - that's the problem. Bunch of role players behind PG and Adams... and Adams is really not an offensive threat. Nobody can make a three to save their lives, so his league best pass pct for an open three is useless. This also results in terrible floor spacing, so teams refuse to let him get to the rim (where he shoots 65%) and make him shoot from the outside.
Put him on a team with some players that can shoot from the outside and he would be an unstoppable force - as if he's not already.
Agreed. Westbrook gets a bad rap. The guy plays the game very hard. He constantly leaves it all out on the court. He gets others involved.
I also think this notion of "building through the draft" is quickly becoming passe in the NBA. Teams like OKC have no chance in the new NBA.
Westbrook plays very hard and is super competitive but he doesn't know when to tone it down. He would be much more effective if he got his teammates involved on plays other than a drive and kick. Paul George was actually a perfect fit play beside him. As he ages my guess is that he drops off precipitously because he is a horrible three point shooter.
I disagree that building through the draft is passé. Teams like the Nets and Clippers were in the position they were this off-season because they drafted well. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, and Green. The Sixers with Embiid and Simmons, etc.
A team like the Thunder has to hit on several draft picks to be competitive (having a ton of draft picks is helpful). They then have to be good within six years of those picks. Basically, besides Porzingis, everyone makes it through their rookie deal and signs an extension. Two years after the extension is when players start agitating for a trade. That leaves about a six year window for a team like OKC to compete.
It’s no secret that in today’s NBA landscape that superstar players have a lot of power.
Take for example this month’s free agency period. The Los Angeles Lakers traded for Anthony Davis after he requested to be dealt from the New Orleans Pelicans midway last season. Kyrie Irving, DeAndre Jordan and Kevin Durant all elected to head to the Brooklyn Nets together, and late last night Kawhi Leonard signed with the L.A. Clippers and the team also traded for Paul George, a player Leonard wanted to team up with.
Portland Trail Blazers’ star Damian Lillard has taken note of the open recruiting that exists between star players and how it’s given players more power than ever.
"It's become huge," Lillard told ESPN. "Because sometimes the coaches and the front offices, they don't have as much power as the players. The players are so friendly now. I think in the past it was like [Michael] Jordan probably didn't go out searching and trying to get guys to come join him. It was like they was competing against each other.”
The conversations that take place help open the door for players to create the teams they want and, in turn, become more powerful than pitch meetings.
"Now it's, 'Well, they got three stars on their team, so I know this guy and that guy, I'm going to try to get them to come to my team.' So I think you see [recruiting] a lot more now where it's just players recruiting players is more powerful than the pitch meeting with the team. That's just what it is now, so it's a huge part of the game now."
Lillard had the opportunity to be a recruiter or be recruited, but instead chose to lock up his longterm future with the Trail Blazers. He signed a four-year $196 million supermax extension which begins in 2021.
"I think we've built something special," Lillard said. "It's been built genuine and in an environment that we've created. It's something that I've been a part of and something that I want to continue to be a part of.”
It looks like OKC is working to trade Westbrook now (which was predictable). The Heat were always the most logical fit and it seems like that's where he's going to end up. They were always the most logical best they are trying to competitive, have a well run organization, a good coach, and another star. It has been reported that OKC will kind of allow Westbrook to dictate where he wants to go because of the respect they have for him.
In the end OKC will just be happy to be rid of his crazy contract. When he gets traded I'd be surprised if it is for anything more than salary dumpage.
It looks like OKC is working to trade Westbrook now (which was predictable). The Heat were always the most logical fit and it seems like that's where he's going to end up. They were always the most logical best they are trying to competitive, have a well run organization, a good coach, and another star. It has been reported that OKC will kind of allow Westbrook to dictate where he wants to go because of the respect they have for him.
In the end OKC will just be happy to be rid of his crazy contract. When he gets traded I'd be surprised if it is for anything more than salary dumpage.
I wonder how long that team can last in OKC? They're dead in the water w/no hope of ever winning it all.
I wonder if the NBA is thinking about how they are going to deal w/doomed franchises? Is there enough money to support teams that are stink year after year after year?
I wonder how long that team can last in OKC? They're dead in the water w/no hope of ever winning it all.
They're going to stink so they'll have some lottery picks. They'll also have the Clippers picks until 2026 and two Heat first round pick. They just got Denver's first round pick. I bet they get another first round pick for Gallinari.
Like I said above teams have a six year window once they draft a franchise player to contend before that player might agitate for a trade.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I wonder if the NBA is thinking about how they are going to deal w/doomed franchises? Is there enough money to support teams that are stink year after year after year?
The doomed franchises are the ones that are not well run (the Hornets come to mind). Other than that everyone has a shot because of the lottery. Before the Pelicans got Zion some might have said they were doomed but they did get Zion and now they have a very bright future (in one of the smallest markets in the league).
So, I am thinking about which teams have a shot to really thrive as the league evolves along its current path.
Both LA teams should always have a chance to attract star players. We've seen LeBron, AD, Kawhi, and P. George either choose to go there or force the hands of small-market teams.
The Nets are in Brooklyn now and they have a shot. They just got KD and Kyrie as a package deal. The Knicks would be a huge player if Dolan ever sold the team. Stars would love to play in MSG.
I can see Miami in the picture. South Beach is second to none in many of these guys eyes when it comes to being a great place to live. We already saw LeBron, DWade, and Bosh plan to play together for the Heat.
One might think Chicago, but the shadow of MJ and the cold winters is a deterrent.
Boston is similar. It has a great tradition, but the winters are cold and long and it's not really a happening town that many black hoops players care for.
Atalanta....maybe. The winters are warmer and the town is happening. They call it Hotlanta for a reason.
Houston has some of the cultural things NBA dudes would like and the weather isn't cold.
Cities in real trouble if this current trend continues.
OKC: Seriously, who the hell would want to live there?
Salt Lake City is about as white as it gets. They have a really good team, but I doubt guys will want to go to that city and young stars will probably want to leave. They should be good for a couple of years, but fall short, and then fade into oblivion.
Cleveland: Cold, long, dark winters. Not a happening locale.
Milwaukee: Known as a racist town. Cold as can be. They have a strong team, but will The Freak want to stay? He is a different dude, so he may...........but, if he goes, they are doomed.
Indianapolis: Cold. Boring. Bye.
Orlando: The average age of it's citizens is 72 years old. Okay, I made that up, but you get the point.
Detroit: They have some real nice clubs, but the town is made of old white money and the gap between the races is immense. I spent two years there. It's a tough place and the weather sucks.
Phoenix: Not sure about this one. It's warmer, but Arizona is anti-black w/their laws and I doubt it's a very happening place for young, black men. I could be wrong about that, though.
Nope, but the point was how many young, rich, black NBA players would want to live there. Believe me when I tell you this.........your definition of "nice" is different than theirs. LOL
Lakers are doing very well. I don't know who exactly is making the decisions but they don't seem that dysfunctional any more. Good moves filling out the roster!!!
Cities in real trouble if this current trend continues.
OKC: Seriously, who the hell would want to live there?
Apparently Russell Westbrook? They built a contender and just couldn't break through.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Salt Lake City is about as white as it gets. They have a really good team, but I doubt guys will want to go to that city and young stars will probably want to leave. They should be good for a couple of years, but fall short, and then fade into oblivion.
The Jazz stayed afloat by making solid draft picks and not signing players to horrible contracts. The have a well run organization. Then they hit on Donovan Mitchell and they are contenders. Cleveland: Cold, long, dark winters. Not a happening locale.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Milwaukee: Known as a racist town. Cold as can be. They have a strong team, but will The Freak want to stay? He is a different dude, so he may...........but, if he goes, they are doomed.
I agree Milwaukee is probably "doomed" if Giannis leaves because it is such a small market. But they also just built a new arena and have the financial backing of two of the richest owners in the league.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Indianapolis: Cold. Boring. Bye.
Indiana is basketball crazy.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Orlando: The average age of it's citizens is 72 years old. Okay, I made that up, but you get the point.
No state tax. They lured Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill once before (and almost Tim Duncan).
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Detroit: They have some real nice clubs, but the town is made of old white money and the gap between the races is immense. I spent two years there. It's a tough place and the weather sucks.
I can't argue anything for Detroit. I think they try to be the perpetual eight seed because they know if they get really bad they are done for.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Phoenix: Not sure about this one. It's warmer, but Arizona is anti-black w/their laws and I doubt it's a very happening place for young, black men. I could be wrong about that, though.
No state tax. It's close to LA. NBA players love golf. They have a horrible owner though. With good management I think it would be a destination city.
In the end if you are a small market team and make solid picks and don't sign dumb contracts you will have a window for contention that will close if your star perceives the window is closing. Sometimes you get lucky and your guy will stay no matter what (Dame Lillard and Russell Westbrook). Like I said above, I would have said the Pelicans were "doomed" and then they got Zion out of nowhere and their future is very bright. (I legitimately thought they would be in Seattle within a couple years if they didn't get Zion.)
Lakers are doing very well. I don't know who exactly is making the decisions but they don't seem that dysfunctional any more. Good moves filling out the roster!!!
They are most definitely still dysfunctional. They made one good trade and then signed a bunch of role players. The moment Frank Vogel does anything wrong Jason Kidd will try and snake him out of there.
Jeanie Buss is still in charge and she is the source of the dysfunction.
No offense, but I thought I made it clear I didn't want to argue w/you. Your points seem stuck in the past to me. That's fine if you believe that. I already said I don't. I think things have changed.
I don't want to go tit-for-tat w/you about the past, because things have changed in my mind. You think they haven't. Thus, we really have nothing to discuss. It would only turn into a pissing match about who is right and who is wrong.
The Lakers continue to kill it. They just signed Avery Bradley.
The Lakers will obviously be good because they have two of the top five players in the league. I just don't know how they will improve their team during the season because they have no picks and no one will want any of the players on their roster besides the guys they are unwilling to trade. They are lining up to be a horrible defensive team. Davis their only above average defensive player (unless LeBron gives full effort). When AD is off the floor they could be going with a lineup of Rondo/Cook/Dudley/Kuzma/Boogie. That lineup will get BBQed. They also don't have anyone that can guard a point guard.
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